Can't Build a Winner By Trading Picks and Signing FA's? Tell That to the Bears and Jets.

[MattFancy]

I agree with the OP. Basically it comes down to there is more than one way to skin a cat. Teams can win through FA and through the draft. I think the ideal way is a mix of the 2. You don't want a team full of young rookies with no experience, but you don't want a team that is old and full of veterans. The perfect team has a nice mix of both young and old and has players that fit the system. For too long, we've been bringing in the big names without knowing if they would fit our system. The teams that build well through FA, only target players they know can fit the sytem.

[addicted]

I'm not saying we should sign V Jax; as a matter of fact, I'd pass. But I do not think we should pass only player X simply because player Y was a bust. If the FO researches a guy like Jackson and believes he will be a team player and highly productive for 5 or more years than I want them to target that type of player- it's a way to get better faster.

I'm nor going to say Mike Shannahan shouldn't do something because Vinny Cerrato sucked at it.

My reply to you was that we should skip Vincent Jackson and all the other high profile and high maintence players this year because when you stack up FA under this current management and IGNORE what Vinny had anything to do with you come up with a list like this:

McNabb

Larry Johnson

Joey Galloway

Josh Bidwell

Roydell Williams

Willie Parker

In fact the best FA addition this coaching staff might have brought in could turn out to be Rex Grossman who fits this coaching staffs success track record of taking hungry players and turning them into performers. All of the "name" free agents this coaching staff brought in this year were terrible and under performed, just like these same "name" players performed before ShannyAllen were ever here. The performers who do something are always the guys hungry. The hungry mouth gets fed. A guy like Vincent Jackson would be terrible here for us and would only be successful on a team like the Patriots which is already built and only missing a few pieces like a WR. This team needs more hungry FA's and needs to step back from any known Free Agent "A" listers or else we will just see another FA disaster....A known player coming into DC and under performing after they got paid.

This has NOTHING to do with Vinny Ceratto and is all about a mindset.The mindset is clear...we want young up and coming talent here. If a free agent was a superstar on another team then we pass. We need to build our own stars and become a team players want to go to play for not for money but for a chance. Doing this builds you a young developing team that hasn't reached its peak or ceiling and gets away from the mercenary teams of the past of has beens with diminishing skills. The problem with doing the right thing like this is you won't sell any jerseys picking up a bunch of unknowns so Snyder won't like it. And worst of all the fickle fanbase won't get excited about Free Agency seeing a bunch of no names signed like this. But make no mistake this is the right approach and the wrong approach is to target a big time star on another team and think he will duplicate that here. It won't happen.

[drowland]

Well, the two teams built primarily through the draft are in the Super Bowl. The Jets went for boom or bust with the players they traded for. Now they're all FAs, along with some of their home grown talent.

[Skins-Canes-Mounties]

My reply to you was that we should skip Vincent Jackson and all the other high profile and high maintence players this year because when you stack up FA under this current management and IGNORE what Vinny had anything to do with you come up with a list like this:

McNabb

Larry Johnson

Joey Galloway

Josh Bidwell

Roydell Williams

Willie Parker

I agree with your point about Jackson. We shouldn't sign him. But most of the signings above were small, one-year contracts with little or no guaranteed money. I have no problem with contracts like that. They enhance competition. The problem with the prior regime was the long-term contract with significant guaranteed money. That really tied management's hands. Contracts like the above don't.

[GSF]

It's just not a good comparison Kleese. The Skins have been consistently trading away picks for a decade. the Skins have traded away more picks than the Jets and Bears combined.

[darrelgreenie]

The Jets built one of the best OL's in football.

The added their offensive skill position players via FA.

The Bears are propped up by excellent coaching they're far from a complete team.

One could argue that their weakness the OL cost them the game.

[gibbsfan2018]

what did the bears and jets win??????

[Veretax]

Green Bay traded picks for clay matthews....Pittsburgh I"m not aware of any trading they did though.

[techboy]

what did the bears and jets win??????

At this point, an NFC Championship appearance sounds pretty okay to me...

[NavyDave]

When looking around the league no matter the year you will always see different ways that teams have found success.

Looking at the successes and failures of this team what I believe we need to see much more of is the infusion of younger hungier never done anything in the league dying to get a chance players then we need to venture into the realm of Free Agency. Our priority for improving this ball club in my eyes from most significant to least should be:

Priority 1 - Draft

Priority 2 - Other teams Practice Squad players

Priority 3 - Undrafted players signed after the draft

Priority 4 - Free Agent Veterans

Priority 1 - Draft

Best player Available you do not reach, you sign the Best player at that spot that can fit your scheme

Priority 2 - Other teams Practice Squad players

this has to be a no brainer since it reduce the time to get young teachable pieces for the 3-4 that I'm still not fond of. But with the Ravens, Packers, Jets and Steelers basically using the same scheme as our current Def coordinator there is no excuse to bring in 6 players from those teams for depth or better.

Priority 3 - Undrafted players signed after the draft

Yes every year there are those unexpected gems, we had a couple ourselves. Heck the bears just discovered their undrafted freeagent 3rd string QB is now a backup QB for them with a quick release.

Priority 4 - Free Agent Veterans

I see nothing wrong with signing if available a Vincent Jackson or N Asomugha. Solidify the position for 5 years and stop thinking that all players are supposed to be here until they are long in the tooth and retires a Redskin.

[addicted]

I agree with your point about Jackson. We shouldn't sign him. But most of the signings above were small, one-year contracts with little or no guaranteed money. I have no problem with contracts like that. They enhance competition. The problem with the prior regime was the long-term contract with significant guaranteed money. That really tied management's hands. Contracts like the above don't.

So a roster spot on a 53 man team doesn't matter? I think it does, while those contracts were structured in such a way we could admit a mistake and move forward without those players the fact is when you take a washed out old player and think he's worthy of shutting down a younger guy who might just need some more playing time to impact the team you've made a personnel mistake here. The competition is true, the problem is when you take a guy like Torain and put him on a Practice Squad because you think that a guy like Larry Johnson can still play in this league you've taken a risk that was unnecessary. We got lucky keeping Torain. Had we not and some other team scooped him up off the practice squad all for keeping Larry Johnson we would be screwed. If we are thinking this time next season that washed out guys like Roydell Williams and Joey Galloway are fits for us then we should be bringing in young UFA wide receivers from college, Canada, the USFL, from the grocery stores or where ever else we can find young guys to play that position because we obviously have a need there.

---------- Post added January-24th-2011 at 07:42 AM ----------

Priority 1 - Draft

Best player Available you do not reach, you sign the Best player at that spot that can fit your scheme

I've never been a fan of this sort of thinking....Best Player Availible....Ok so say this year at the 10 spot we don't sign anyone to play QB, WR, or Offensive Line in Free Agency. This is all possible since FA could be tabled this year. So say we know we have obvious needs at those positions yet based on our "Mrs. Cleo" draft board the very best player available happens to be say a corner back and a linebacker. Sure we have a "need" there but what is the chances that drafting a corner back or a linebacker is going to result in any more wins for us next year? Now say on that same "Mrs. Cleo" draft board we have ranked 15th a QB, at #16 we have ranked a WR, and at #17 we have ranked a Guard or Center. To me there is a fine line between drafting BPA and BPA who's going to help my team win more games. A Linebacker isn't going to help this team next year or in the next 5 years as much as finding that stud QB or WR so there I'm looking at taking the BPA who's going to help my team win more games every year over simply the BPA. I'm not suggesting drafting a second round talent in the first round, that's stupid. I'm saying that not all players are going to influence a teams chances to win more games like some others will. And the idea that you simply draft BPA regardless of that is not a good way to build a team. Otherwise you wind up with the Redskins spending 3 first round picks in back to back years on the secondary without them having a QB, the Detroit Lions spending first round draft picks on Wide Receivers without them having a QB, and on and on. Bad teams always draft BPA, good teams navigate a mine field with a plan in place so that they address all needs as best as possible.

Priority 2 - Other teams Practice Squad players

this has to be a no brainer since it reduce the time to get young teachable pieces for the 3-4 that I'm still not fond of. But with the Ravens, Packers, Jets and Steelers basically using the same scheme as our current Def coordinator there is no excuse to bring in 6 players from those teams for depth or better.

That would have made much more sense to me then us simply filling up the team with old players like I mentioned in my last post. Good idea

Priority 4 - Free Agent Veterans

I see nothing wrong with signing if available a Vincent Jackson or N Asomugha. Solidify the position for 5 years and stop thinking that all players are supposed to be here until they are long in the tooth and retires a Redskin.

I see many things absolutely wrong with us getting into these players sweepstakes. I hope we aren't even remotely looking at either of these men. They are on the backside of the careers, we aren't a WR or Corner away from the playoffs, and they both will require huge contracts and that money spent could be spread over 4 or 5 player contracts who are hungry for playing time and a contract. Pass on these guys or we've not learned **** from our own past.

[NavyDave]

[

I've never been a fan of this sort of thinking....Best Player Availible....Ok so say this year at the 10 spot we don't sign anyone to play QB, WR, or Offensive Line in Free Agency. This is all possible since FA could be tabled this year. So say we know we have obvious needs at those positions yet based on our "Mrs. Cleo" draft board the very best player available happens to be say a corner back and a linebacker. Sure we have a "need" there but what is the chances that drafting a corner back or a linebacker is going to result in any more wins for us next year? Now say on that same "Mrs. Cleo" draft board we have ranked 15th a QB, at #16 we have ranked a WR, and at #17 we have ranked a Guard or Center. To me there is a fine line between drafting BPA and BPA who's going to help my team win more games. A Linebacker isn't going to help this team next year or in the next 5 years as much as finding that stud QB or WR so there I'm looking at taking the BPA who's going to help my team win more games every year over simply the BPA. I'm not suggesting drafting a second round talent in the first round, that's stupid. I'm saying that not all players are going to influence a teams chances to win more games like some others will. And the idea that you simply draft BPA regardless of that is not a good way to build a team. Otherwise you wind up with the Redskins spending 3 first round picks in back to back years on the secondary without them having a QB, the Detroit Lions spending first round draft picks on Wide Receivers without them having a QB, and on and on. Bad teams always draft BPA, good teams navigate a mine field with a plan in place so that they address all needs as best as possible.

Best Player available ties into what that team has on its draft board not what fantasy draftniks have. Isaw nothing wrong with the drafting of Sean Taylor and then Laron Landry without the tragic death of ST there is no doubt we would have the best secondary in the league. Heck if we didn't have line troubles last year the drafting of E Berry would have been a solid move. We weren't in position to draft said franchise QB or WR at the time unless we gave up more picks and that team didn't want said franchise QB for themselves.

And with the condition of our O line and defense even if we land a QB they will end up as either David Carr or Stafford

[bulldog]

I don't think the Bears model is one to emulate.

Cutler wasn't worth two #1 picks. Peppers is going to be 31 years old by the start of next season.

Chicago was built for a short run and this year might have been the high water mark.

The Bears are an old team compared to the Packers, who have a host of younger high draft picks that are only now coming into their primes.

You can laud the Bears and Jets for using trades and free agency, but the fact remains that while these guys came close, no cigar

Ultimately, they are going to be watching the Super Bowl at home.

[addicted]

Best Player available ties into what that team has on its draft board not what fantasy draftniks have. Isaw nothing wrong with the drafting of Sean Taylor and then Laron Landry without the tragic death of ST there is no doubt we would have the best secondary in the league.

I have no problem with drafting the late Sean Taylor, however how did drafting Laron Landry in 2007 at the 6th pick help us long term? We could have drafted:

Adrian Peterson (#7) - Solved our RB issue

Patrick Willis (#11) - Solved our LB issue

Derrel Revis (#14) - Solved our CB issue

Instead and be much better today. Or instead of drafting Carlos Rogers at #9 we could have drafted Demarcus Ware (11) or Aaron Rogers(24) and not been so stupid and moved back into the first round to get Jason Campell at 25?

Hindsights is 20/20 but the Jason Campbell / Aaron Rogers debate to me says that if we didn't go "BPA" and instead went "BPA who helps us win now" we don't make that trade for Campbell, we don't draft Carlos Rogers, and instead spend that pick on the position we needed the most back then QB and grabbed Aaron Rogers.

BPA is a dumb thing to do when you've got huge holes to fill. When you do your much better off examining your needs, figuring out what your options are in FA first, and then getting the most bang for your buck in the draft. If you miss you miss. Everyone wants to find the great players but no one does all the time. But when your the Skins and have a need at QB it makes no sense to skip over the best QB in the draft just so you can trade away valuable picks to get the second best player because you thought that taking the BPA will help your team more.

Heck if we didn't have line troubles last year the drafting of E Berry would have been a solid move.

Enough with the "build your team from the outside in" crap, name me one champion built like that? You can't because it's not a good way to build a team and throwing more first round picks at the secondary will only ensure more losing years for us. I want to win not have the best secondary ever. When your teams built like that your going to suck, and we proved that

[Skins-Canes-Mounties]

So a roster spot on a 53 man team doesn't matter? I think it does, while those contracts were structured in such a way we could admit a mistake and move forward without those players the fact is when you take a washed out old player and think he's worthy of shutting down a younger guy who might just need some more playing time to impact the team you've made a personnel mistake here. The competition is true, the problem is when you take a guy like Torain and put him on a Practice Squad because you think that a guy like Larry Johnson can still play in this league you've taken a risk that was unnecessary. We got lucky keeping Torain. Had we not and some other team scooped him up off the practice squad all for keeping Larry Johnson we would be screwed. If we are thinking this time next season that washed out guys like Roydell Williams and Joey Galloway are fits for us then we should be bringing in young UFA wide receivers from college, Canada, the USFL, from the grocery stores or where ever else we can find young guys to play that position because we obviously have a need there.

They don't necessarily have to take up a spot on the 53. It is more like taking a spot against the 80 man offseason limit. You allow them to compete in training camp and the preseason. If, after taking potential into consideration, the young guy can't beat Galloway, then he isn't worthy of more than a practice squad position anyway. If the young guy wins out, then you can freely cut the aging veteran. So with these signings, the 53 man roster isn't a limitation. When making the roster decision, you take into account the risk that another team will claim the PS player. The chances are that if the player can't beat the Galloways of the world, and can't make the Redskins 53, then he isn't making many other team's either. You need youth AND talent. Not just youth.

And you also can't forget some of the other FAs that were brought in, which you reference in some of your posts, but left off of the list.

Torain

Banks

Armstrong

Again, these guys were given small contracts, with little or no long-term obligation.

Taken as a whole, this F.O. is much different from the prior regime (so far). I don't see one potentially crippling contract, aside from the Haynesworth restructure, which really was just making an existing contract more favorable.

[Crazy Levi]

This is all apples and oranges anyway.

I don't think any team in the playoffs has decimated their draft over the past decade as much as the Redskins. Has any other team in the NFL been as eager to give away picks as the Skins?

You can't compare the Skins with teams like the Jets and the Bears. They have made some trades and FA signings, but they've never abandoned the draft as an organization like the Skins have.

If the Skins continue to trade picks at every turn, they will continue to be perrenial losers, as simple as that.

[Warhead36]

You can't sustain long term success by relying on FAs every year. Every once in a while? Sure, but even then teams like the Colts, Steelers, and now Packers pretty much never go into the FA pool for big name guys, only roster fillers. It's just way too inefficient in the modern NFL dominated by salary cap and roster constraints. The best run teams in the NFL are all teams that primarily build through the draft. It isn't "50/50", it isn't even 75/25, the ratio of resources spent on draft vs. FA is probably like 90/10 for the teams I listed above.

[The Tris]

Of the 99 Pro Bowlers, 75 have spent their entire career with one team.

Of the 44 primary offensive and defensive starters, there are 8 free agents (ironically all in the NFC - Vick, Turner, Mughelli, Peters, Abraham, Peppers, Samuels and Woodson).

Of the 44 primary offensive and defensive starters in the SB, 39 have only played for the Steelers or Packers.

Woodson and Walden for the Packers, Adams, McFadden and Clark for the Steelers started games for other teams, with only Woodson and Clark being "big name" free agents.

Yes, there are players pick off practice squads like Harrison and Tramon Williams, but these don't fit the bill of the players the Jets, Bears, and Redskins go after in free agency.

The best players and the best teams are found and built primarily through the draft. Free Agency is an important part, but far from the most important part, or one to be relied on.

[HigSkin]

I'm sorry but we could only dream to get as far as the championship game like they did.

I would not label those 2 teams losers because they tried to firm up their team with FA and trading picks.

[addicted]

They don't necessarily have to take up a spot on the 53.

Yes they do or else you put them on your teams practice squad and then run the risk any other team could grab them from you. You ignored me mentioning Torain because that's exactly what we did. We choose as a team this year to keep Larry Johnson on the 53 man roster, while cutting and then re-signing Torain to the Practice squad. When the team realized that Johnson was washed up he was cut and Torain promoted. The question here is why this happened and what's to stop it from happening again? Unless you want to explain the good reason for putting the more productive, younger, and better player at risk like this because we gained something by keeping the old veteran crappier Johnson around?

It is more like taking a spot against the 80 man offseason limit. You allow them to compete in training camp and the preseason. If, after taking potential into consideration, the young guy can't beat Galloway, then he isn't worthy of more than a practice squad position anyway. If the young guy wins out, then you can freely cut the aging veteran.

I wish it were that simple. Truth is rookies and younger players don't get to normally see a lot of action unless the teams veterans are struggling and not producing, or the seasons completely over and no one cares anymore. Why did we keep Galloway and not use Armstrong more? Why did we keep Roydell Williams and try and use him but never give Austin a chance? Why do older head coaches like Shannahan and Gibbs have no faith in the younger players and always choose the older veterans? It's not simply a matter of "let them fight it out" when your coaches don't seem to like anyone under 30 is it?

So with these signings, the 53 man roster isn't a limitation. When making the roster decision, you take into account the risk that another team will claim the PS player. The chances are that if the player can't beat the Galloways of the world, and can't make the Redskins 53, then he isn't making many other team's either. You need youth AND talent. Not just youth.

I should be really surprised to see a Redskins fan actually say something this offseason like "If they can't beat Galloway" when it was shown the moment we stopped trying to get the ball to that 38 year old man the offense did much better and especially after a season where we saw Armstrong come out of nowhere but then again this is "Extremeskins" so nothing surprises me much anymore. We saw first hand a guy "beat" the older veteran in preseason and the coach go the different direction because of him trusting the older crappier player. So your point here is exactly what? We could do the right thing but choose not to

And you also can't forget some of the other FAs that were brought in, which you reference in some of your posts, but left off of the list.

Torain

Banks

Armstrong

Again, these guys were given small contracts, with little or no long-term obligation.

Left off what "list"? I already said we needed to find more of these guys, and get away from the old expensive veterans time and time again. Your just proving the point I am making. A youth movement is much better for us using the draft, the UFA list, other teams practice squad players, then us taking the road of getting the expensive old Free Agents.

[Coach Janky Spanky]

I understand what the OP is getting at, but in this case I don't think its really accurate.

The jets have repeatedly drafted O-line in the first round in the previous several years. They always have most of their draft picks -- while they do pick up free agents, they haven't recently traded them for picks, with exceptions (Holmes for a 5th, for example). Others were just FA pick ups, like LT. Even trading-up for sanchez wasn't nearly as costly as it could have been, as from what I understand, Cleveland gave the jets a pretty solid deal.

Also, while yes some teams (including us) may have success one year or for a couple years in a row, the CONSISTENT, repeated double-digit winning seasons come from building the right way. Look at the Steelers, Colts, Pats -- those are the teams that are in it EVERY year. Yes, the Bears and jets were contenders this year, but they aren't consistently solid. I mean, even the Skins were solid in 2005 and 2007 but those were flashes in the pan, because we weren't build the right way.

I think that there's nothing wrong with using free agency to fill holes, or even as a secondary means of building a roster. It's not evil in-and-of-itself. The problem is when draft picks are given up.

[VRIEL1]

Cough, Cough,

I don't think they have traded away picks for the last 10 yrs though. Buid your team and then trade for a few items is not bad. Throwing away valuable picks for the last 10 yrs for over the hill players and cuting them a yr later won't get it done.

[NavyDave]

I see many things absolutely wrong with us getting into these players sweepstakes. I hope we aren't even remotely looking at either of these men. They are on the backside of the careers, we aren't a WR or Corner away from the playoffs, and they both will require huge contracts and that money spent could be spread over 4 or 5 player contracts who are hungry for playing time and a contract. Pass on these guys or we've not learned **** from our own past.

No one said we are a player or two away, that does not mean we do not solidify several positions and with us possibly losing Stone hands Rogers signing a player of Asomougha calibre is not a reach. Moss is a 30 something receiver who is also an UFA.

---------- Post added January-24th-2011 at 01:16 PM ----------

I have no problem with drafting the late Sean Taylor, however how did drafting Laron Landry in 2007 at the 6th pick help us long term? We could have drafted:

Adrian Peterson (#7) - Solved our RB issue

Patrick Willis (#11) - Solved our LB issue

Derrel Revis (#14) - Solved our CB issue

Instead and be much better today. Or instead of drafting Carlos Rogers at #9 we could have drafted Demarcus Ware (11) or Aaron Rogers(24) and not been so stupid and moved back into the first round to get Jason Campell at 25?

At that time we really didn't have a major need at CB and in Greg (3rd G is for Genius) Williams athletic safeties with size were a plus. And who is to say your what if picks would have thrived here?

Yeah and what position would Ware had been playing in the 4-3 back then? So using hindsight we should have traded back into the 1st round ahead of the Packers to get Aaron Rogers to learn Gibbs offense then the 700 page playbook then Zorns offense.

Hindsights is 20/20 but the Jason Campbell / Aaron Rogers debate to me says that if we didn't go "BPA" and instead went "BPA who helps us win now" we don't make that trade for Campbell, we don't draft Carlos Rogers, and instead spend that pick on the position we needed the most back then QB and grabbed Aaron Rogers.

BPA is a dumb thing to do when you've got huge holes to fill. When you do your much better off examining your needs, figuring out what your options are in FA first, and then getting the most bang for your buck in the draft. If you miss you miss. Everyone wants to find the great players but no one does all the time. But when your the Skins and have a need at QB it makes no sense to skip over the best QB in the draft just so you can trade away valuable picks to get the second best player because you thought that taking the BPA will help your team more.

Yeah so reach for a need at QB that does not fit you system and considering how apparently our offensive coordinator does not adapt his system to the QB's strengths thats an even dumber move.

Just like if it was up to me we would only draft big uglies on both sides of the ball that is ultimately a foolish move if the majority are not compatible with that scheme.

Enough with the "build your team from the outside in" crap, name me one champion built like that? You can't because it's not a good way to build a team and throwing more first round picks at the secondary will only ensure more losing years for us. I want to win not have the best secondary ever. When your teams built like that your going to suck, and we proved that.

Son, there is no zero sum gain in building a team. Drafting stellar skill positions (Defensive Ends and Outside Linebackers are skill positions too) in the 1st round does not mean you are done addressing other position via the draft, free agency or raiding team 's practice squads. And not every GM is going to be cursed like Vinny

[36HAMMER]

the fa market this year will go along way in determining the Redskins year next year.Oline and dline help as well as many others as everyone is well aware. in time they will come to a place where the can mainly draft thier player needs but not now.and not only players available but cap will dictate the Skins ability to sign and who they sign.

[PokerPacker]

Green Bay traded picks for clay matthews....Pittsburgh I"m not aware of any trading they did though.

Yes, we traded up in the draft for him. The first time Ted Thompson EVER traded up. He saw something special in Clay Matthews and went against his philosophy of keeping picks or trading down.