Can't Build a Winner By Trading Picks and Signing FA's? Tell That to the Bears and Jets.

[kleese]

One common theme on ES is that the Redskins need to change the way they build a team...no longer focusing on trading picks and signing FA's, but instead building through the draft and finding diamonds in the rough.

Let me first say, that I DO hope the Redskins go that route. I hope we get younger and hungrier.

But saying it can't be done the other way is pure nonsense.

The Jets have key cogs all over their roster that came from free agency or trading draft picks. And both of their starting WR's were dealt for coming in with serious baggage (Edwards and Holmes). Cromartie, LT, Jason Taylor, Bart Scott, etc....were all brought in to fill gaps and plug holes. Of course, the Jets have drafted fairly well recently (although they did have a top 5 total bust in Vernon Gholston).

The Bears also made one huge FA signing (Peppers) and made one major trade (Cutler) that totally reshaped their team on both sides of the ball.

The philosophy is NOT the problem...it's WHO you target that matters.

I want ShanAllen to build a winner; I really don't care how they do it.

From where I sit, what this regime has done WELL so far is get production out of younger, unproven players (Trent, Banks, Torain, Keiland, etc..) What they've done poorly is identify what vets can help (McNabb, Ma'aake).

I think it's time for the Redskins to go the young route full bore, but if they have an opportunity to get a guy like Vincent Jackson I'm not going to be against it simply because we've missed on guys in the past.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm much less concerned about which philisophical approach this regime takes, and much more concerned that they just get good players that fit well. It can be done both ways.

[War Paint]

Yeah, I remember ESPN calling the Jets the Jetskins. I'm not against signing FAs, as long as they are younger and can fit the system. We just need to quit trading draft picks away.

[terrifNick21]

Yeah, I remember ESPN calling the Jets the Jetskins. I'm not against signing FAs, as long as they are younger and can fit the system. We just need to quit trading draft picks away.

They were calling the Redskins the Jetskins because they had gotten Coles, Hall, Randy Thomas, and I think Chad Morton all from the Jets.

[Hitman21ST]

Well thought out post, kleese. I completely agree. The majority of Skins fans (and a good number on ES, for that matter) are too jaded from the Vinny years and object to any free agent signing. While yeah, Vinny had no idea what he was doing with the team, Shanahan and Allen do. They have a well thought out strategy, and know who and why they want to target. One of their better picks was Adam Carriker IMO, he struggled early on, but once all the drama was gone, he started coming on and looks like a respectable DE in the 3-4.

We'll only make the big splash move if needed, and we definitely won't overpay like everyone has been so used to over the past decade.

---------- Post added January-17th-2011 at 10:17 PM ----------

They were calling the Redskins the Jetskins because they had gotten Coles, Hall, Randy Thomas, and I think Chad Morton all from the Jets.

Don't forget Santana Moss

[redskins804]

Agreed....

Free agency is helpful and trading picks away could benefit if you are getting the right player (Mcnab in his prime lol) . I am pretty sure the regime we have in place probably wont trade anymore pics because they have clearly been burned with the mcnab and brown trade. However, free agency with a competent team of "football people" is certainly beneficial. I am actually pretty excited to see what Shanahan and company will bring. One thing is for sure, we are not going to spend crazy money the on the likes of Adam Archuletta, Brandon Lloyd, Fat Al, etc.... lol

[NavyDave]

The Bears already had a solid defense and were recently in a superbowl before making free agent moves.

The Jets have no problem adapting or simplifying their defense and offense unlike our alleged super smart shannys who are too mule headed to adjust to the players strengths.

Depending on what they do with McNabb and Haynesworth will determine what type of free agents will come here. If the perception is that they are asshats the shannys will have to overpay to get key cogs to come here.

Why would a Vincent Jackson play for a perceived jerk if he can go to a team like the Vikes or stay on the west coast and go to the 49ers?

[hail2skins]

Good post Kleese.......fits in with a thread started by SkinsHokieFan today on this subject.

The fact is that the Skins have too many holes to fill through just the draft and will need FA to gain players as well. The pertinent question is HOW you acquire these other players. If a player is a free agent who has been released, great. If acquiring the player means the Skins will have to trade picks, not great at all.

[War Paint]

They were calling the Redskins the Jetskins because they had gotten Coles, Hall, Randy Thomas, and I think Chad Morton all from the Jets.

Nah, I'm not talking about that. They were calling the Jets the Jetskins when talking about all the FAs the Jets were signing. They probably used the name "Jetskins" for both occasions.

[Darth Tater]

I do know that the 2000 Redskins who everybody calls a FA team was made up of mostly of guys who had been Redskins for most of their careers or so came to us after their original teams were done with them. Of the intended starters on offense, only 3 began their careers in non-Redskin uniforms and on defense the most important guys were our first picks in 1999 and 2000. Further, all the key backups were long-term Redskins.

[Veretax]

I think as fans it is quite easy to lose perspective. Its not about FAs, or picks. Its about evaluating, hiring, and selecting the right talent. From the guy who scrubs the toilet, to the ones calling plays. If you make good picks then it doesn't matter how they got there. That only comes up when they fail. Everything, is about the results. Simple eh?

[Dirt]

Very good point.

I still can't believe how well (healthy) LT has been this year. Nobody here wanted to pick him up for just the reason you said. "no more old FAs!".

[brandymac27]

The Jets have no problem adapting or simplifying their defense and offense unlike our alleged super smart shannys who are too mule headed to adjust to the players strengths.

A lot of people will say that you don't adjust your scheme just for a few players. But what if you've invested a LOT in those players and an adjustment will absolutely make a difference? To me, if making ofensive or defensive adjustments to better suit a great player(s) that we heavily invested in makes more sense than getting rid of them or benching them b/c they don't fit the scheme.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

A lot of people will say that you don't adjust your scheme just for a few players. But what if you've invested a LOT in those players and an adjustment will absolutely make a difference? To me, if making ofensive or defensive adjustments to better suit a great player(s) that we heavily invested in makes more sense than getting rid of them or benching them b/c they don't fit the scheme.

I wish the Shanahans felt the same way.

[DeadExField]

We've been trying to do it one way for a very long time, and it hasn't been working. So it wouldn't hurt to try the other for a while and see where that takes us. I do not want to trade away any more pick though

[tr1]

If you have good personnel departments, it doesn't matter how you acquire the players.

We had Vinny for too, too long.

[VaBeachRedskin]

One common theme on ES is that the Redskins need to change the way they build a team...no longer focusing on trading picks and signing FA's, but instead building through the draft and finding diamonds in the rough.

Let me first say, that I DO hope the Redskins go that route. I hope we get younger and hungrier.

But saying it can't be done the other way is pure nonsense.

The Jets have key cogs all over their roster that came from free agency or trading draft picks. And both of their starting WR's were dealt for coming in with serious baggage (Edwards and Holmes). Cromartie, LT, Jason Taylor, Bart Scott, etc....were all brought in to fill gaps and plug holes. Of course, the Jets have drafted fairly well recently (although they did have a top 5 total bust in Vernon Gholston).

The Bears also made one huge FA signing (Peppers) and made one major trade (Cutler) that totally reshaped their team on both sides of the ball.

The philosophy is NOT the problem...it's WHO you target that matters.

I want ShanAllen to build a winner; I really don't care how they do it.

From where I sit, what this regime has done WELL so far is get production out of younger, unproven players (Trent, Banks, Torain, Keiland, etc..) What they've done poorly is identify what vets can help (McNabb, Ma'aake).

I think it's time for the Redskins to go the young route full bore, but if they have an opportunity to get a guy like Vincent Jackson I'm not going to be against it simply because we've missed on guys in the past.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm much less concerned about which philisophical approach this regime takes, and much more concerned that they just get good players that fit well. It can be done both ways.

The Jets built their roster through the draft and then went out and grabbed the pieces they needed. 14 of the Jets starters on offense and defense were home grown talent (11 of them taken in the first 3 rounds and 4/5 of their offensive line was from the draft or UDFA).

The Bears are much the same way. The built through the draft and then plucked the pieces they needed to succeed (13 of their 22 starters are from the draft).

The key is building a foundation with solid drafting (having as many 1st-3rd round picks is also crucially important as those are the money rounds for drafting solid starters) and then having the right people in place to make personnel moves in FA.

[skinsnshanny]

The Jets built their roster through the draft and then went out and grabbed the pieces they needed. 14 of the Jets starters on offense and defense were home grown talent (11 of them taken in the first 3 rounds and 4/5 of their offensive line was from the draft or UDFA).

The Bears are much the same way. The built through the draft and then plucked the pieces they needed to succeed (13 of their 22 starters are from the draft).

The key is building a foundation with solid drafting (having as many 1st-3rd round picks is also crucially important as those are the money rounds for drafting solid starters) and then having the right people in place to make personnel moves in FA.

Good post. Id also like to add that some of the guys the Jets brought in, were guys Ryan coached in Baltimore, making the fit more likely. Yes I am referring to Scott and Jim Leonard (who was having a great year prior to injury)

I dont even know who to consider a skins starter anymore but on offense:

Cooley-drafted

AA--undrafted FA

Torian--Same deal

Everyone else was a true FA? is that correct (we did draft dockery, who we then let go, then brought back, and then benched) (heyer is undrafted FA but not a real starter i guess)

Defense: too many questions going into next year to estimate.

I think the bigger thing is having a team identity/bond/way of doing things, that the guys already on the team have, so that when the FAs come in, they see it and join in. Here in DC we have not had that, so the FAs come in and think they own the team.

For example: J. Peppers in chitown. Chi already had a defensive identity. Brian and Lance have played together for a long time setting the tone. Many of those other guys as well. So when peppers came to town it wasnt like he was a superstar who everyone just stared at. He saw the environment and leadership already in place and fit right in. Then he dominated and everyone in CHI is happy.

Same thing with the Jets. Ryan brought over Scott who already knew what was expected of him. They had success last year, because of that they could bring in guys like Cromartie and J Taylor, who either had to get with the culture or flunk out. The offensive side of the ball for the Jets is a little more interesting because besides being able to run it, they didnt have much else before bringing in Edwards, Holmes, and LT. That said Holmes came from a wining environment. Edwards was there last year and LT was willing to accept a reduced role, but then preformed well and got more time. I still think it comes down to Rex setting the tone and the players buying in.

[wildbill1952]

It's not the trading of draft picks that's so badly hurt the Redskins. It's the trading of draft picks for guys that didn't help the team because of skill (Brandon Lloyd) or age (Jason Taylor/Duckett) or getting free agents that are worthless because of attitude (Haynesworth). The Skins have generally been terrible, no matter who they trade for or otherwise acquire, London Fletcher and Santana Moss being notable exceptions.

[Oldfan]

One common theme on ES is that the Redskins need to change the way they build a team...no longer focusing on trading picks and signing FA's, but instead building through the draft and finding diamonds in the rough.

But saying it can't be done the other way is pure nonsense.

No, it isn't nonsense because the core of every perennial winner has been built and maintained primarily through the draft. The best you're going to prove is that winning teams use trades and free agency to complete their rosters.

In 2006, I posted a study that I put together of that year's all-pro team. 52 of the 56 players were playing for the team that drafted them. Three were free agents and one was acquired by trade (Champ Bailey).

NFL teams draft and keep their best players.

[bigricky3469]

No no no no, it's not like that at all, you first have to build a base of good young talent and when you feel like you are close then you chase the prize. You don't chase the prize without having an outstanding base first.

[KDawg]

I'm not sure who has said it CAN'T be done. I know I've been saying WE can't do it. And I've used the last decade as my example as to why we can't.

It can certainly be done, though.

That said, it's still not the best philosophy.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

IMO the only top core player the Jets have that they got through FA is Scott. Yes they filled holes with LT, Edwards and Holmes. But their line is awesome all through the draft. The have their QB and a good RB in Green. Yes we can fill positions through FA like they did but we really need to fix our lines through the draft and we NEED NEED NEED our future QB.

[Oldfan]

I'm not sure who has said it CAN'T be done. I know I've been saying WE can't do it. And I've used the last decade as my example as to why we can't.

It can certainly be done, though.

That said, it's still not the best philosophy.

I think it's impossible to build the core of a football team with trades and free agency because it would require superhuman personnel evaluation skills to find your core among players cast off by other teams.

And, if those skills existed, it would be far easier to use them to do it through the draft.

[KDawg]

I think it's impossible to build the core of a football team with trades and free agency because it would require superhuman personnel evaluation skills to find your core among players cast off by other teams.

And, if those skills existed, it would be far easier to use them to do it through the draft.

I think impossible is overemphasizing your point. It's certainly possible to fashion a team using trades and free agency. If you notice, I didn't use the word build in that first sentence. I think if you're looking at things with a microscope, the word "build" implies starting with a foundation and creating it from the ground up. When you try to fashion a team from free agents and trades I think it's more like moving from your house to a house that you feel is an upgrade. And sometimes the plumbing is better and everything is great, but other times the roof collapses a month after moving in.

The best way to ensure it's done the right way is to build it yourself, but the cost is a lot more extensive. (Time)

And the older home always has a much shorter shelf life. Build new and you have something you can enjoy for a long time.

[#98QBKiller]

Great points Kleese. I was going to make a similar thread if the Jets made it to the Super Bowl. Either way, that's two AFC Championship appearances in consecutive years and they may have the most FA players in the league: LT, Cromartie, Santonio Holmes, Braylon Edwards, Jason Taylor, Alan Faneca, Kris Jenkins, etc.

The Bears have their fair share too, just not as many.

A team can be successful with a good mix of FA and draft, it just has to have a long-term vision to work toward and good coaching to boot.