Time for Allen and Shanahan to Come Clean

[bulldog]

Terrell Suggs plays OLB in a 3-4 and is not a top cover guy in the short to intermediate zones. The Ravens cover for him on that side by shading the safety.

So, the argument about OLB in coverage in the 3-4 can be worked by the DC if you have a guy whose primary skill contribution is penetration at the line and rushing the passer.

In regards to the 4-3, I would agree that Orakpo at 263 was a bit overmatched against the run. But I also remember Dexter Manley, Charles Haley and a host of other undersized DEs that came in as speed rushers and learned over time to use better technique to hold up in the run game.

Orakpo played in that 4-3 for a single season. Hardly a long enough period with enough good coaching to determine he couldn't fit that role going forward.

Again, I agree that the Redskins don't have a single 'finished product' player where we can point to him and say 'he is the best in the game'.

But Orakpo and Landry are not the reasons the Redskins defense is dead last in a number of categories.

These players can be PART of a winning team here in the future.

My question is where do the other 9 defensive starters come from? (8 or 7 if you bring back DeAngelo Hall and Fletcher).

[jthor99]

There's only 5 guys in this organization who have value, and if this organization were smart they would look to see what "value" they have to other organizations this offseason. Rash decisions need to be made, and you need to sell stocks when their still high. Haynesworth stock is not, but his realtionship with the coaching staff and with the organization is to a point of no return.

Haynesworth

Cooley

Landry

D. Hall

McNabb

[bulldog]

you mean we still can't get that #2 pick for Rex Grossman? Darn!

[Burgold]

So far, amongst the smart moves this front office made was not giving Rogers and MacIntosh the long term super deals they were seeking. Shame, I liked Rocky, but man has he looked bad the last few games.

[Grinder]

the defense was a disaster from Day 1 because the team didn't have a true NT that could play and didn't have an OLB to pair with Orakpo to produce pressure in the 3-4.

pretending that Haynesworth was going to knuckle under and play NT was very naive on Shanahan's part. Kemoeatu and Bryant are simply not capable starting NTs.

on the other side Carter and Alexander are defensive linemen. they are not linebackers.

Troy Aikman, Phil Simms and Jimmy Johnson could see that from the broadcasting booth but evidently it went undiscovered at Redskins Park :mad:

Because as per usual we specialize in trying to jam square pegs into round holes since drafting pass rushing monster Lavar Arrington and telling him to cover TEs.

Archuletta, Jason Taylor, now Haynesworth, Orakpo, and Carter...the constant is to invest major picks and/or money in someone and make them play AWAY from their strengths.

Obviously its been around longer than the current regime but its just so much more magnified with this clumsy switch to the 3-4.

[bulldog]

again, another player out of position. McIntosh is 6'0 and 232, playing inside linebacker in a 3-4. It doesn't help that he is taking on 330 pound guards instead of 245 pound fullbacks.

that is the fault of the defensive line, or the lack thereof.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Thank you, zoony. I was afraid I had gone crazy.

The amount of reverence on this board for Orakpo is absolutely crazy. Don't get me wrong, I think he'll be a fine player in this league, but right now he's an undersized player relying solely on a single move to get a few sacks. You'd think he was some game changing force with the way people talk about him.

Great minds with you guys. I wrote similar in the thread on Orakpo 15/20 minutes or so back. People always flame me when I bring Oher up, but I seriously think we missed a beat in not taking a stud for a FAR more pressing position of need.

I seriously don't see how Orakpo fits in the 34. He's a total non-factor in run support, so there's zero way he could be a 34 end; which is shown up more in his coverage as a linebacker. He's a threat rushing the QB of course, but we can't afford to carry such a one dimensional player when we're so porous in talent around him.

Hail.

[bulldog]

do folks realize here that both Kemoeatu and Bryant, the two listed NTs on the roster, didn't take a snap in the NFL in 2009?

today, Kedric Golston at 6'4 and 298 was playing NT in the second half against the Giants.

[Warhead36]

If you look at Orakpo's career #s, they're right on pace with what Ware and Suggs, two dominant 3-4 rushers, were putting up early on in the 3-4 as well. It takes time to get adjusted to it. On top of that, we have without a doubt the worst DL in the NFL and the 3-4 needs big strong DL up front to clogg up blockers and let the LBs roam and make plays.

I'm not saying Orakpo shouldn't be held accountable when he ****s up, because he should. I just think it's silly to criticize one of the few talented young players we have when he's still learning and growing into a position. I can live with young guys with upside making mistakes, but I can't stand fielding a team full of old guys with no upside who still suck.

[TK]

This couldn't be more incorrect. The only difference in Landry this year is he has a coach holding him accountable in meetings and with his preparation. Ask anyone close to the situation.

Orakpo's "natural" position is a DE. Which he's too small to play in the NFL, as he is a liability against the run. So in the 4-3 all we heard last year is that he shouldn't be used as a LB, because he excels as a pass rusher.

Enter the 3-4, and all we hear all preseason long is how he gets to rush the pass rusher every down and how he'll be sure to have 15 sacks and a pro bowl bid. Well, he's done just about exactly jack ****. Mainly because he's played like dog**** this season. But Redskins nation doesn't want to hear it, because he's a first round draft pick. And we only have a few.

Maybe we need to at least consider... just consider... that there might have been a reason he fell so far in the draft.

Either you're joking, or you've seriously regressed mentally.

Landry has the same position coach as last year. He has a new DC & HC that not only hold him but his position coach to higher standards. Which would be part of the same Shanny "micro mgt" you mentioned earlier in another thread.

Rak has done jack**** & played like dog****? Seriously, what ****ing games are you watching? You HAVE to be joking with that buncha crap. Here are his stats. Go take a look at this year & last year. They're nearly identical. They just don't show how many times he gets held, whether it gets called or not.

[Hollywood1127]

#1 - Why do so many people think Allen was not part of the process in turning down Moss and other opportunities? Why do you think that was just Shanahan's call?

#2 - What is this obsession with so many fans and Moss? Really. I just don't ****ing get it. The last thing we need is an old veteran WR on this team. We need to be evaluating young talent and gathering building pieces for the future. Not Randy Moss. Anyone but him.

People said the same thing about Terrell Owens and he became within necks length of passing Randy Moss in receptions against their game against the Steelers. You do know that Terrell Owens and Jerry Rice are not that far behind each other from number of receptions. Funny how people like Terrell Owens end up going with other teams and doing better. Sad thing is, he said he wanted to play for the Skins, and they turned him down twice. To be honest with you, McNabb would have enjoyed throwing to Terrell Owens over a 38 year old Joey Galloway.

And why are you hating on Randy Moss. I never said we were going to give him a huge contract extension. All I wanted us to do is to give a decent veteran a job and see how he did with a deep thrower like McNabb. You never know; he may have gotten his fame with the Redskins against our game against the Eagles on Monday Night Football. Randy Moss would have been eager to show fans that he can still play and that he can connect with NFC East veteran Donovan McNabb. I think he would have worked well with the Redskins.

[bulldog]

and if we go back to what DeMarcus Ware wasn't doing his first couple of years in the NFL it was failing to anchor his side against the backside run and in being suckered inside where screens were then thrown to his side.

those are among the same issues Orakpo is having in transitioning to OLB in the NFL.

[Burgold]

Hey, even mods can get angry and irrational.

My take on Orakpo. He's a good to very good pass rusher. He's a poor linebacker. He's lost contain so many times and while I think he's okay in space he certainly ain't great. I think he'd do better as a DE... though certainly not as a 3-4 DE. I do think he's had somewhat of a sophmore slump, but still has a pretty good number of sacks. Some of the holds I saw today were insane and worse because they were not called.

As for being too small to be a DE... doesn't he compare to Freeney and the Vikings ends who go around 250 or so?

[Warhead36]

Orakpo is a talent. He's still raw and needs to be harnessed but I'd rather have a guy who's flaws are coachable than a guy who does everything right scheme wise but lacks the talent. We need more Orakpos and less Moores, Doughtys, McIntoshes, etc.

[bulldog]

precisely my point that Orakpo at 24 and with a change in systems after his rookie year has not had the stability needed to be a more consistent performer for us.

in many ways his career is analogous to what happened to Landry. Blache kept him at FS and Cerrato failed to draft a true FS to replace Taylor. Now at SS Landry is a probable pro bowl selection.

[Warhead36]

precisely my point that Orakpo at 24 and with a change in systems after his rookie year has not had the stability needed to be a more consistent performer for us.

in many ways his career is analogous to what happened to Landry. Blache kept him at FS and Cerrato failed to draft a true FS to replace Taylor. Now at SS Landry is a probable pro bowl selection.

Yep. I still like Orakpo's upside in the 3-4, but it is a transition. Next year if we can get some better DL in front of him I think he could have a much bigger year.

[ikeon]

The challenges to Shanahans authority unscored anything he tries to do, I have seen it at my own work, one or two malcontents will unravel a weak team and disrupt even the simplest of plans.We started with a weak team and it will not turn itself around until the off season. Guys sit around waiting to see who will win. The boss or the malcontents. In the end everyone loses. The cancer? It is in the locker room, Shanahan inherited it.

[Chicken Fried]

If we are lucky, there will be a lock out next season.

It's sad, but you're right. It would be best if we don't even play.

[cfm56]

It's time for a total rebuilding effort on this team. Both offensive and defensive lines.

Stop trying to turn this team into an AFC jugornaut. We are NOT the AFC. We are in the NFC East. Its time to turn this team back to its identity...

Its time to bring Russ Grimm here back to DC and get this thing going for once and for all.

I am done with SHANAHAN!

HTTR

[skinpride1]

I would rather keep #5 here and bring in more talent in the trenches!

Please rebuild the lines!

[JimmyMac814]

Marty is way too old now to start another era. Whenever we get a new HC, I hope it's a coordinator that has obvious intangibles. I don't want a retread, but I don't want some one year wonder coordinator. I want a coordinator that has the it factor, like Rex Ryan and Sean Payton.

Such as Gregg Williams?? whos bright idea was it to bring in zorn and not give the reins to williams? SCREW YOU DAN SNYDER, you have hurt me and taken the thing i am most passionate about away from you you have ruined my team, leave it alone, dont touch it. you are the worst owner. i despise you and you have pushed me over the edge. years and years of the ****. im done with you. give me my team back

[bulldog]

Shanahan needed to go to Snyder when he took the job and made cutting Haynesworth a pre-condition. Much as Bill Parcells did re Emmitt Smith with Jerry Jones when he went to Dallas in 2003. Parcells didn't want Smith's continuing status with the Cowboys at age 33 to be an issue going forward.

Anyone who knew about Haynesworth knew he could be a disruptive influence and a guy that went his own way. That was never going to be compatible with what Shanahan wanted to esbring to town.

So, the best outcome would have been an early parting so that by now the issue would be long in the rear view mirror.

Instead Haynesworth is still an issue and Shanahan is still refusing to admit that his handling of the issue has had an effect on the roster since the start of the season.

Let's face it. Snyder was SO desperate with fans on the warpath after Zorn's failure that Shanahan could have made the organization move Haynesworth to avoid it becoming an issue.

But I think HIS ego got in the way of admitting this was going to be a problem.

HE was going to be able to influence the player.

Well, it appears Shanahan was wrong.

Now he has to make the decision in February 2011 that he should have made in February 2010.

[longball]

He needs to say what he should have said when he walked in the door. We are rebuilding! Bring in young unproven guys, work the draft and see what happens. i would support young guys trying with a system in place. but is shannys ego to big? will they commit to rebuild?

[Rufus T Firefly]

Just root for Detroit to get the top pick, then we deal with them to get Andrew Luck.

[zoony]

Thank you, zoony. I was afraid I had gone crazy.

The amount of reverence on this board for Orakpo is absolutely crazy. Don't get me wrong, I think he'll be a fine player in this league, but right now he's an undersized player relying solely on a single move to get a few sacks. You'd think he was some game changing force with the way people talk about him.e.

Best way I could phrase it... I would trade Orakpo for a first rounder, no question.