Time for Allen and Shanahan to Come Clean

[bulldog]

Actually, the 'movement' for accountability and a little truth in advertising about truly rebuilding the team to prominence has been a wish of some of us for the past decade plus

[tr1]

Actually, the 'movement' for accountability and a little truth in advertising about truly rebuilding the team to prominence has been a wish of some of us for the past decade plus

Well, I wonder what it would accomplish except to give the fan base another excuse to accept continued poor performances.

Allen and Shanahan see these player every day and KNOW most aren't going to be around in three years...why tell the players that? To promote blow-outs?

I need to see the next draft class and the OTAs in the spring before I get upset.

[gutlead74]

The problem with rebuilding through the draft is do you trust this group to make the right picks? Perry Riley, Eric Cook, Dennis Morris, and Terrance Austin were and are wasted picks. So more picks does what for us exactly. So we go back to free agency where we get the other teams discards. The future is bleak. I'm getting to the point of just giving up on this franchise, embarrassment after embarrassment kinda does that for ya. Our D is so slow our O is pathetic and our front office lacks the ability to evaluate talent. I am just so disgusted with the whole damn franchise.

[WARLORD1863]

The Redskins clearly do not have the talent to really compete. Sure, they'll squirt by with a couple of victories but we have been totally thrashed one too many times this season. It's very obvious we need an overhaul on who's on our roster.

I still believe in Mike Shanahan, but I believe he can only win when he has proper talent. This team needs to redirect their priorities to obtaining a lot of decent players for various positions throughout the team, instead of getting one really good player at one position that costs the team a fortune.

[Chump Bailey]

They're not done either. Not even close. They've just begun to change over the roster. I expect more moves this off-season like the last one.

Like trading Tryon our 4th round selection to the Colts for a 7th who's making plays starting at CB and on ST's? That was brilliant

I give them credit for the Carriker move though on second thought.

I have strong doubts about Bruce and Mike's ability to evaluate talent. I hope i'm wrong though believe me. We shall see.

[tr1]

What makes you think this is a rebuilding year besides the fact that you can't call it anything else when you go 5-11. We got OLDER this year Tr1! We traded draft picks for a 34 year old QB and had no lineman to protect him. We traded more draft picks for Jamaal Brown is who clearly damaged goods. We signed Willie Parker and Larry Johnson and passed on LT or drafting a running back. While we were at it, we passed on Antrelle Rolle in favor of Kareem Moore. We signed Kemo, Vonnie Holliday and Carriker. Unmitigated disasters. Old, unmitigated disasters.

We aren't in a rebuild year at all. After all, "the future is now".

McNabb came cheap as a stop-gap. He's the guy who moved forward on signing the contract that had been on the table for months. He's not the future, but he'll get us competitive more quickly.

Anyone who comes in and shows flashes will hang around (Banks, Armstrong)...but, until you fill a slot with someone better, you've gotta play somebody.

[War Paint]

I think this is by far the worst sin of this new regime. They completely destroyed the trade value of players on this team that did have value before they got here. Everyone.. . and I mean everyone knew that Andre Carter was going to bust out in the 3-4. How did we KNOW this? we already saw it! Only now he is older. To think for one minute that he was going to suddenly figure out how to play in space was absurdly naive when he utterly failed to do so when he was younger and more athletic in San Fran. He was coming off of an eleven sack season! Ok, we are switching to 3-4. Trade him to a 3-4 team who needs a pass rushing defensive end! What's he worth now? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Haynesworth? Same thing. Utter garbage is all we will get for him and why? HE TOLD US he wouldn't play in this system. We could have met with him, listened to him and traded him. Yea, we would have had to eat the money - so what? We are gonna eat it anyway! Only he will go on and be a pro bowler in a 4-3 somewhere next year and we will get a 7th round pick AND we pay for him anway!

Santana Moss probably had some trade value. Next year? Nope. Rocky Mcintosh probably had some value. Now? Nope. Dockery. Same thing. We HAD trade value for picks. We completely destroyed it. And for what? To go 5-11? To get into a pissing match with AH?? I can handle losing. But I can't handle losing for no reason. With no purpose. If we were 5-11 with a bunch of rookies and a stockpile of upcoming draft picks, I could have chalked all of this up to rebuilding. We wasted this year. Completely and totally wasted it and we are gonna get nothing in return.

Good post man. We could have gotten more value with some of our players if we traded them this past off-season. Carter had a good year last season, now he's been lost this year. His value is down. We should have traded AH. Now we've had a whole year of drama, which I'm sure lowers his value. We possibly could have gotten something for Portis, but now there's no trade value because he's gone to IR two years in a row and will be hitting 30. We could have possibly gotten some picks and used them for 3-4 type players.

Not only we didn't have the personnel for the 3-4, we switched to the 3-4 and didn't even get some young 3-4 talent to infuse this season. I could see if we had a few young players added to the 3-4 mix this season, but pretty much, our NT is a veteran backup and we got Adam Carriker. We pretty much installed a system with absolutely nobody to execute it and didn't get hardly anyone last off season to build a 3-4 core. IMO, you shouldn't even consider switching to a 3-4 unless you have a core of about four 3-4 type players to build upon.

[bulldog]

well, yes if you doubt that Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan with the scouts on staff can make decent draft choices then the Redskins are in fact doomed to mediocrity

I am assuming in this first year of the regime, that with an accumulation of picks the Redskins will be able to make some decent selections.

But if you are assuming the worst, I wouldn't expect that a move to look at expensive free agents is going to net any great improvements either as the same braintrust will be looking at the veterans

[Grinder]

The problem with rebuilding through the draft is do you trust this group to make the right picks? Perry Riley, Eric Cook, Dennis Morris, and Terrance Austin were and are wasted picks. So more picks does what for us exactly. So we go back to free agency where we get the other teams discards. The future is bleak. I'm getting to the point of just giving up on this franchise, embarrassment after embarrassment kinda does that for ya. Our D is so slow our O is pathetic and our front office lacks the ability to evaluate talent. I am just so disgusted with the whole damn franchise.

Also at this point in his career does Shanny WANT to completely rebuild a team through the draft? From the moves he's made so far I'd say no.

[GoDeep81]

I think this is by far the worst sin of this new regime..

Your post is too long to quote, but you make a lot of sence!! It's baffling how quite a few fans spoke of these issues before the season started, yet the super coach and crew we hired couldnt see it, and even now when it's starting them in the face, they refuse to adapt or admit it was a mistake..

I dont know what the hell Shanny's doing with Haynesworth.. Even if ya want him gone, let the guy play and show other teams he's worth a pick or two in return! Parking him in a game where the oppositon has a rookie and a backup playing center and guard, is nuts!!

[bulldog]

Shanahan is 57 years old with a reputation.

He is not Spagnuolo or Schwartz or Raheem Morris taking on his first job and being willing to risk building from Ground Zero.

This is one of the factors you get when you bring in an established HC.

The only exception I can think of is Bill Parcells who seemed to relish going to new teams and resurrecting them from the bottom.

[msak24cardss]

I think its already started. J. Davis, R. Torrian, K. Williams T. Austin, B.Banks, T. Williams. Look for the Skins to rebuild the O-Line and fire Hasless and go back to a 4-3 this offseason.

[mi6]

First things first ... the Front Office and Talent Scouts need to really wake up!

They have to admit and acknowledge that the Redskins have a BIG problem, and simply put that problem is LACK of TALENT.

We have given huge FAT LUCARATIVE contracts to players who just want a paycheck, and NOT earn it. Dockery and Haynesworth come to mind. I am sure there are many others.

Here's the core group of people around who I would build ...

- Dovonan McNabb, QB (But, we still NEED to draft a STUD Franchise QB)

- Anthony Armstrong, WR

- Chris Cooley, TE

- Fred Davis, TE

- Ryan Torrain, RB

- Keiland Williams, RB

- Trent William, LT

- D'Angelo Hall, DB

- Kevin Barnes, DB

- Laron Landry, Safety

- Jeremy Jarmon, DE

- Brian Orakpo, DE

- London Fletcher, LB

- Lorenzo Alexander, LB

- Brandon Banks, KR/PR

- Hunter Smith, Punter

- Graham Gano, Kicker (but, if an upgrade is available, dump him!)

The rest of the team needs to be let go. They deserve a contract ...

Santana is getting old and unproductive. Roydell Williams is a joke at WR! Clinton Portis has been injury prone the past 2 season.

The O-lline needs to be shored up. Casey, Dockery, Hicks Montgomery all need to go. Heyer is a backup.

We need a brand new young strong and talented 3 or 4 D-linemen. Guys who can create havoc in the backfield. Stop the run, and pressure the passer. The LBs need an upgrade. We need another good safety to compliment Laron.

And, we certainly need some GOOD TALL SPEEDY WRs.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

F

Here's the core group of people around who I would build ...

- Ryan Torrain, RB

- Hunter Smith, Punter

- Graham Gano, Kicker

.

I would not include these three on the list......one too injury prone and the other two just stink

[Rodriggo]

Just root for Detroit to get the top pick, then we deal with them to get Andrew Luck.

Cam Newton is looking pretty tasty right now though.

Do you risk a guy with more athletic upside and off the field "issues" instead of a more traditional pocket passer? Tough call.

Andrew Luck has "Alex Smith" written all over him.

Wonder if the Lions would consider getting rid of Stafford.

I was a skeptic on Newton but he is an absolutely scintillating talent.

Seems like the perfect kind of guy to build around from scratch.

Of course around here it would be a disaster from jumpstreet.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Cam Newton is looking pretty tasty right now though.

Do you risk a guy with more athletic upside and off the field "issues" instead of a more traditional pocket passer? Tough call. Andrew Luck has "Alex Smith" written all over him.

Wonder if the Lions would consider getting rid of Stafford.

I was a skeptic on Newton but he is an absolutely scintillating talent.

No, I really don't want Newton. Luck is as close to can't-miss as any QB since probably Palmer.

[bulldog]

The only issue Newton seems to have is that he and his father allegedly love money :laugh:

He would fit right in here

[Rodriggo]

The only issue Newton seems to have is that he and his father allegedly love money :laugh:

He would fit right in here

YES!!!!

I mean, if the Eagles get to play with a dog killer? College football is a sham anyway. Let these kids sign "prospect contracts" out of high school already.

Let each franchise sign three prospects a year that's essentially the top 100 high school players in the country (the ones prone to cheating the system) with the caveat that they achieve a college degree in a minimum of three season including redshirts.

He just seems like a winner to me. He has "it", it's impossible to not notice.

[Rufus T Firefly]

YES!!!!

I mean, if the Eagles get to play with a dog killer? College football is a sham anyway. Let these kids sign "prospect contracts" out of high school already.

He just seems like a winner to me. He has "it", it's impossible to not notice.

I couldn't care less about asking for money. What I care about is his mediocre footwork and passing accuracy.

It took Vick a decade, 2 organizations and two years in jail to turn into anything more than a big-play inconsistent passer. Assuming he's there now.

[papaSkins27]

I think this is by far the worst sin of this new regime. They completely destroyed the trade value of players on this team that did have value before they got here. Everyone.. . and I mean everyone knew that Andre Carter was going to bust out in the 3-4. How did we KNOW this? we already saw it! Only now he is older. To think for one minute that he was going to suddenly figure out how to play in space was absurdly naive when he utterly failed to do so when he was younger and more athletic in San Fran. He was coming off of an eleven sack season! Ok, we are switching to 3-4. Trade him to a 3-4 team who needs a pass rushing defensive end! What's he worth now? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Haynesworth? Same thing. Utter garbage is all we will get for him and why? HE TOLD US he wouldn't play in this system. We could have met with him, listened to him and traded him. Yea, we would have had to eat the money - so what? We are gonna eat it anyway! Only he will go on and be a pro bowler in a 4-3 somewhere next year and we will get a 7th round pick AND we pay for him anway!

Santana Moss probably had some trade value. Next year? Nope. Rocky Mcintosh probably had some value. Now? Nope. Dockery. Same thing. We HAD trade value for picks. We completely destroyed it. And for what? To go 5-11? To get into a pissing match with AH?? I can handle losing. But I can't handle losing for no reason. With no purpose. If we were 5-11 with a bunch of rookies and a stockpile of upcoming draft picks, I could have chalked all of this up to rebuilding. We wasted this year. Completely and totally wasted it and we are gonna get nothing in return.

You nailed it. The people not being paid millions of dollars to evaluate talent could easily see Carter was not going to work out as a LB WHAT THE **** were they thinking not trading him coming off an 11 sack season? Don't like Fat Al's attitude? TRADE HIM! Realize Dock doesn't fit your scheme? TRADE HIM BEFORE THE DEADLINE!

But I'm not a proffessional, it must be part of some Shanahan master plan to keep all these inactive former starters on the sidelines while they sit in digi-camo Redskins hoodies laughing at our POS team break records on sucking.

Why would we ever trade players for draft picks when we can keep all this dead weight and get nothing in return? I know lets resign Casey Can't-Block, our worst O-linemen to a 3 year extension (besides Heyer who I can't believe is still on this team), trade a 2nd and 3rd to a division rival with a overflow of QB's for their oldest slipping QB spiraling down to the end of his career, oh, and throw in a 4th rounder for an injury prone OT that can't hold the edge anymore. Awesome. ****ing GENIUS! Lets bring in ancient RB's while we're at it, put our young talent on the PS only to realize oh **** Brandon Banks, Austin, Torain, etc. are better then these 39 year olds we have on the active roster, who could have possibly seen that coming? We don't have the personel for the 3-4 but **** it, let's switch to it a year early anyway, WHY THE **** NOT WE ****ED UP EVERYTHING ELSE ANYWAY. I laughed my ass off when Devin Thomas was making special teams plays on us today (not once but TWICE!) I hope he walked up and gave Shanny the finger after the game.

I was so excited when we brought the Shanahans to DC but I've been scratching my head since the start of the offseason at our bassackwards moves.

Another year older.

Another losing record.

Another year being a doormat.

Another year all of our players decrease in value and we are desperately looking to spend big money to fix big holes in FA because we don't have enough draft picks to build on.

Another year as a Redskins fan. :doh: :cry: :shot:

[@DCGoldPants]

We all see that this Redskins' team is the least talented in the NFC East by quite a wide margin.

The offensive and defensive lines are not competitive.

There are no backs or receivers that scare anyone - most have been acquired on waivers or culled from other teams' practice squads.

The quarterback is 34 and has started to throw a lot of picks. There is no backup with any real talent or upside. In fact both backups are 30.

Two or three decent players, Rogers and McIntosh, are free agents.

This team needs a COMPLETE REBUILD FROM THE FOUNDATION UP.

Use Orakpo, Landry, Trent Williams, Banks, and some others as part of the rebuild.

But Allen and Shanahan have to admit where we are.

Because otherwise the danger is to go into the offseason of 2011 with the mentality that a few free agent signings and draft picks will be enough to put this team in the argument.

One offseason WON'T rebuild this. Signing any more 30 year old players is nothing but counterproductive to any kind of long-term growth.

It's going to take time, and it's really time that the folks in charge admit that based on what we see on the field each Sunday.

As an aside - we can be upset over the outcome of this particular game against NY, but I think we all knew the truth several weeks ago when this club lost in St. Louis and then in Detroit and was manhandled up front in both contests.

Any venting here based on the outcome of the Giants game are the same discussion points in a dissection of any of these other losses, and I daresay another others to come in the final 4 weeks

Great thread, Bulldog.

[Rodriggo]

I couldn't care less about asking for money. What I care about is his mediocre footwork and passing accuracy.

It took Vick a decade, 2 organizations and two years in jail to turn into anything more than a big-play inconsistent passer. Assuming he's there now.

I just finished putting a fresh coat of paint on the "Welcome to Washington, Cam" bandwagon.....c'mon man!

[Redskins4ever]

We all see that this Redskins' team is the least talented in the NFC East by quite a wide margin.

The offensive and defensive lines are not competitive.

There are no backs or receivers that scare anyone - most have been acquired on waivers or culled from other teams' practice squads.

The quarterback is 34 and has started to throw a lot of picks. There is no backup with any real talent or upside. In fact both backups are 30.

Two or three decent players, Rogers and McIntosh, are free agents.

This team needs a COMPLETE REBUILD FROM THE FOUNDATION UP.

Use Orakpo, Landry, Trent Williams, Banks, and some others as part of the rebuild.

But Allen and Shanahan have to admit where we are.

Because otherwise the danger is to go into the offseason of 2011 with the mentality that a few free agent signings and draft picks will be enough to put this team in the argument.

One offseason WON'T rebuild this. Signing any more 30 year old players is nothing but counterproductive to any kind of long-term growth.

It's going to take time, and it's really time that the folks in charge admit that based on what we see on the field each Sunday.

As an aside - we can be upset over the outcome of this particular game against NY, but I think we all knew the truth several weeks ago when this club lost in St. Louis and then in Detroit and was manhandled up front in both contests.

Any venting here based on the outcome of the Giants game are the same discussion points in a dissection of any of these other losses, and I daresay another others to come in the final 4 weeks

It's not Mike Shanahan's fault, nor is Bruce Allen to blame. They inherited this mess and they are slowly but surely fixing what's wrong with this team. This is only their first year. You can certainly put the blame still on Vinny Cerratto. Allen and Shanahan need time to fix the mess that Cerratto created. As far as McNabb, he's dealing with poor offensive line play. The Redskins also have a below average running game. They need to draft, and draft, and draft, and build this team. It won't be surprising if Shanahan either cuts Haynesworth or trades him.

[charles mannley]

I knew this year wasn't going to be great, and am trying to be patient (even though I was screaming at the TV after the second play). If we dont't find the reason guys are dropping footballs, fumbling, and consistently doing some of the dumbest things to lose games I dont't care who we have its still gonna be the same ol ****.

To me it seems like Mike is letting Kyle run the offense and it is becoming a concern of mine whether he can come down on Kyle (if its his problem to deal with) to get the players to play with some pride and professionalism.

I can handle knowing when we are losing because of talent, but I can't watch stupid football players killing drives by dumb penalties and dropped footballs and ****ing stupid interceptions.

[bulldog]

the Redskins this year decided to keep Haynesworth. they decided to trade #2 and likely #3 picks for McNabb. traded another pick for Brown. made 6 draft picks. brought in another 10 veteran free agents.

while I agree that you can't rebuild in one year, this regime DOES bear responsibility for the moves THEY made. Specifically those to implement a 3-4 defense and a passing game that doesn't fit the strengths of the 34 year old qb they acquired.

and I am not going to let these guys off the hook by blaming injuries at the end of the season.

this club got the stuffing kicked out of it in St. Louis and Detroit, two teams that are in fact climbing up from the absolute bottom