NBS: Time’s Klein: Beck, Palin Potentially Committing Sedition

[Predicto]

Haven't seen any Gay Marriage advocates calling for the assasignation of our elected officials.

Haven't seen Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck do that either.

[Kilmer17]

No.

Are we done?

I hope not. This is highly entertaining for this violent extremist.

[JMS]

If we were to start implementing such restrictions based on that dictionary defintion and a rigid interpretation, as Henry and others pointed out, we would soon have a totally vanilla playbook and few eligible players. :pfft:

So is their no middle ground? Is their no systemic derick protecting from folks you yourself have called bottom feeders who have access to a microphone? Is the price of a free society incumbant upon our hearing as a society everything which pops off the tops of these peoples heads, unrestricted by the legitamacy of our election system? We can protect our children against the seven naughty words, but not our democratic society against anti democratic rhetoric? Is it possible to impose guidelines which up until now most Americans took for granted from our elected officials, of both parties?

One more thought. If no action is taken, and I'm not advocating for draconian action here. Just a moratorium against calls for violence, gun metaphores, and personal attacks. If no action is taken, and something does go down ultimately laid at the doorstep of one of these chuckle heads... Don't you think the ramifications would be orders of magatude worse for a free society, than taking pre-emptive action without the burden of emotional entanglements?

[Thiebear]

So Moveon.org and Democrat underground and DailyKOA are just friendly sites to encourage free speech?

But these 3 must be taken to Ft. McNair and Hung?

[JMS]

Haven't seen Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck do that either.

Let me re-phrase then. I haven't heard people advocating for the death of the president at many pro gay marrage rallies. Much less on national tv and on several occassions.

[88Comrade2000]

Frankly the entire government is guilty of treason.

So Sedite this.

This is nothing new. If there was a credible threat, secret service would take care of it.

If someone really Obama dead and are willing to die themselves, you will not stop them. Such is the mentality of an assassin.

Palin, Beck, etc.. are just capitalizing on the anger out there during bad times. Are there some nuts in there, yes.

[Larry]

Let me re-phrase then. I haven't heard people advocating for the death of the president at many pro gay marrage rallies. Much less on national tv and on several occassions.

You keep throwing that out. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Specifically, no, you cannot prosecute and jail Sarah Palin because of what some guy in the audience yells.

[JMS]

If there was a credible threat, secret service would take care of it.

The secret service has investigated threats made at Palin Political rallies.

US Secret Service probes death threats against Obama

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hQdKB_yggRkzx5eyQlueyGvsmt7g

If someone really Obama dead and are willing to die themselves, you will not stop them. Such is the mentality of an assassin.

I know that's a popular truism having appeared in a clint eastwood movie and all, but history doesn't support it. There have been many people willing to die, who have tried and failed to kill our political leadership.

Palin, Beck, etc.. are just capitalizing on the anger out there during bad times. Are there some nuts in there, yes.

Capitalizing, certainly... I would also argue manufacturing.

[JMS]

No, you cannot prosecute and jail Sarah Palin because of what some guy in the audience yells.

• Don't Retreat Reload.
  
• Barack Husien Obama is a Communist.
  
• Barack Husien Obama is a Terrorist.
  
• He wants to kill your elderly parrents.
  
• I am afraid what will happen if he is elected, creats policy.
  
• I'll keep my gun, you keep the change.
  
• Barack Obama planned his politcal career at the house of a man who bombed the Pentagon.
  

Follks ague she's skirting the line between sedition and dissent. I would argue if your metric is her followers she's gone over the line....

In either case you certainly can jail people for inciting rebellion. Sedition is a crime in this country.. If some dude yells a threat out once you may blow it off... If unrelated people yell out things a half a dozen times then I think we need to take a closer look.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sedition

sedition remains a crime in the United States under 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (1948), a federal statute that punishes seditious conspiracy, and 18 U.S.C.A. § 2385 (1948), which outlaws advocating the overthrow of the federal government by force. Generally, a person may be punished for sedition only when he or she makes statements that create a clear and present danger to rights that the government may lawfully protect (Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47, 39 S. Ct. 247, 63 L. Ed. 470 [1919]).

[Zguy28]

You all fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: never think that JMS will concede even when soundly beaten!

Oh yeah, that and "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"!

[JMS]

You all fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: never think that JMS will concede even when soundly beaten!

Oh yeah, that and "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"!

I don't think this is a right or wrong thread. We've had three different sedition acts passed by congress in our history. Typically when our nation was in great termoil. We have what 16-18% unemployment nationally un adjusted? I think this qualifies as great termoil. The latest and current law coming from 1948 passed by a Republican congress. We've had people prosecuted for sedition as recently as the 60's.

You can claim you aren't for it. You can claim it will do more harm than good, both of which have been claimed....

I think it's also fair to note sometimes the lack of action have lead to worse alternatives than a proactive response... I listed two. The fall of the Weimar Republic when Hittler came to power. Israel in 1995 when Rabin was shot. Both results of sedition in the political arena left un-addressed. Both resulting in the downfall of the democratically elected governments.

I think there is a clear distinciton between politcal dissent and sedition. I think others don't think that distinction is nearly so clear, and fear the blurry line.

This isn't a rght and wrong thread, it's a choose your poison thread.

[JimboDaMan]

I want to point out that at long last the correct spelling of "dissent" has been achieved, not just once but repeatedly. :applause:

[twa]

The secret service has investigated threats made at Palin Political rallies.

Has there been any substantiated by the secret service yet?

You would think with such allegations there would be

[Peeping Wizard]

They aren't isolated events. It's happenned several times. It's been happening since the campagne..

• Trader
  

Is that a reference to his days on Wall Street?

[Peeping Wizard]

It would be FANTASTIC if this administration tried to put Beck/Palin or other spokespeople on trial for sedition. Could you imagine how stupid Holder and his band of morons at the DOJ would look trying to prosecute them? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

[NavyDave]

Hmm so both Soccer Fans on ES trying to promote an activity less popular than watching paint dry are guilty.

Sedition is a term which refers to overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority as tending toward insurrection against the established order.

The OP should stick to using the race card instead of the DOA sedition label.

[Peeping Wizard]

If I were Beck or Palin I would personally call Eric Holder and BEG him to bring up sedition charges against me. Talk about a ratings boost...

[JimboDaMan]

If I were Beck or Palin I would personally call Eric Holder and BEG him to bring up sedition charges against me. Talk about a ratings boost...

Oh Lordy, are you kidding? I'm pretty sure those two goobers actually do make anonymous calls implicating themselves in sedition. Beck would have an orgasm right on the air. We'd never hear the end of it.

[Smoot Point Really]

There are many fine examples of bad spelling in this thread... deamonize... desent... Howard Deen... "pressent"...

[Burgold]

I don't think from what I have heard what they say rises to the level of sedition... fearmongering, mudslinging, riot baiting, sure... but not sedition.

It's a dangerous charge and one that we should be very careful in applying because we do need the right to be defiant of our government and to be able to disagree with it passionately.

[Predicto]

It would be FANTASTIC if this administration tried to put Beck/Palin or other spokespeople on trial for sedition. Could you imagine how stupid Holder and his band of morons at the DOJ would look trying to prosecute them? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

Isn't that what Mark Levin said was about to happen?

I think it was the same time as the Fairness Doctrine was going to come back.

[nonniey]

You all fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: never think that JMS will concede even when soundly beaten!

Oh yeah, that and "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line"!

Hah one of these days we should all enthusiatically agree with JMS's latest hypothesis just to see what happens.

[Larry]

So, OK, maybe a serious discussion, though.

When does "speach" make someone liable for the actions their speech inspires?

One case I'm thinking of, (and which I bet we'll get differing positions on), was when that abortion doctor, Tiller, was murdered at his church. Seems that at least one of the anti-abortion web sites, in addition to entire pages of materials on what a horrible murderer of helpless babies he is, and how many premeditated murders he's committed, . . .

Also posts his home address. Photos of his home. The address of the church he attends. The grocery store where he shops. Let's say (since I'm attempting to create a hypothetical, here, not to discuss everybody's position on abortion) they publish photos of his car, including the license plates. The school that his kids attend. The home address and phone number of his parents. The names and addresses of any employees he hires. (His gardener. His pool cleaner.)

Are they (partially) responsible for his murder?

Hypothetical: Say that I really, really, hate somebody. (Or, I have a reason for acting like I do.) Say I discover that when Predicto was 15, he got his girlfriend pregnant. He married the girl, they have two more kids, been married for 20 years.

I decide that I'm going to attack him.

I form groups to attack Predicto. I create web sites, dedicated to informing everyone about the fact that as long as he's out there, that every child in San Francisco is in imminent danger of being kidnapped, raped, and tortured to death.

I have a radio show, and every 15 minutes, for three hours a day, five days a week, I tell everybody in the range of my voice about what a threat he is to every child in the community. Every time a kid runs away from home, I pointedly speculate about where Predicto might be.

My anti-Predicto website lists his home address and phone number. His work location. The home address and phone number of the traitor to the community who hired him, and who refuses to fire him, even when I told him who Predicto is. I list the name and address of his parents and his wife's parents. His children's name, ages, and where they go. Which Starbucks he buys his coffee at, and at what time of day.

I spend 15 hours a week, telling thousands of people how Predicto is going to kill their families, destroy the economy, and paint the Golden Gate Bridge pink.

I do such a professional job of smearing him, that surveys indicate that half of my audience actually believe the things I say about Predicto.

Can I truly claim to have no responsibility if one guy, out there in radio land, gets a deer rifle and shoots him as he's leaving the Starbucks which my web site told him was the one Predicto uses?

At what point does a person become at least partially responsible for the results of his speech?

[Predicto]

Well, that's an easy one. :laugh:

I think it is pretty clear that the example you just gave is way over the line, just like it is pretty clear that what Palin is doing does not nearly approach the line at all.

Where the exact line is? Good luck explaining that in a few sentences. I'm not going to try.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Again it's become common place for people to yell out threats at Pallin's rallies..

• Kill Him
  
• Off with his head
  
• Traitor
  
• Treason
  

What should we do with these guys?...And, what should we do with the people who were speaking at these rallies? I'm all ears.