cphil006 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 The question there is who is making the decisions on the players that start. Usually that's the coaching staff, not the personnel guy. True, but we are far from conventional as far as the front office goes... so I have no idea. I think Vinny drafted Orakpo to be a LB, but Blache has been smart enough to increase his role as a rush DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphil006 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Really, then why is ARE, for instance, still returning punts? Is it because the coaching staff believes he gives the team the best chance to get yardage? I think it's because that is what the Front Office signed him for and they WANT it to work. I don't think the coaching staff has much say in who starts. The head coach didn't even have the say in who calls the plays. This is just a messed up structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 If he selected the players, how is that luck? If I select lottery numbers and they win, does that mean I have skill at picking lottery numbers? I refuse to believe that Zorn is the one saying that the big paycheck players HAVE to stay in. He would want whoever performs best to help him save his job. Only one person doesn't have to worry about losing his job. DARTH SNYDER! :dallasuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Walton Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I give him an F for the team coming into the season and I give him an A for his ability to find guys off the street to play this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Day Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Buges has lost big Chris and Randy this season, both are top level OL when healthy and that hurts no matter what team you talk about. Chad R seems to have been playing much better, which credit goes to Buges on him as well as Ed Williams when he came in. He played decently for his draft status and experience. We could have drafted Orr when we got Devon, but then Devon is starting to pay off as well and the board would be complaining about our receivers again. It is a no win right now, the receivers where expected from the beginning to take 2 years to develop. Where are we at now? For the inevitable Desean Jackson comparison, he walked into a very stable environment where everyone else knew the offense like the back of their hands. It is much easier to find Jackson's flaws and coach him up in that environment. Every situation is different and I am seeing that some of the picks are starting to pay off. I will close with what I always say. It is not that we cannot pick well, it is the lack of picks and the idiotic trades (Gibbs) that have killed this team. We have drafted rather well the past 4 years or so with the picks we have had, our success rate is probably average, but we have hit on nearly every Day 1 pick we have had. The players have worked but the coaches need to stop the projects. We lost ST, lets not move Landry but find another FS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 All teams work on getting their higher paid skilled players involved. For the Skins, it's been to their detriment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Actually, I think a big part of what's been holding us back IS Zorn's hesitancy to allow some of our younger players play more often because, he doesn't "trust" them. What an idiot, if it weren't for injuries we would have shipped DT and Fred Davis out as complete busts. Now they're playing great. Young players usually do have to prove that they are good enough in practice, and we've seen the price young players can pay if they aren't smart on the field (like Devin Thomas and all the penalties he caused last year.) Also, rookies don't always get an opportunity to play because they do have players playing ahead of them. As good as DeSean Jackson has been, he probably wouldn't have played as much as a rookie if injuries didn't force him into the lineup. The second part is that he took advantage of his opportunity when he got it, which our players haven't always done. (Both Thomas and Kelly had their opportunities to shine before now and didn't.) If we had brought Lewis in at the beginning of the season, we'd probably have a great record right now. (and who's talking about Zorn's lost "authority" and all that garbage now?! NO ONE, it was his authority that was holding us back apparently) That's fair, and it is something that I thought should have happened. At the same time, if Zorn has learned from the experience, we are all better off. And, for whoever thinks Vinny was picking out players for Spurrier is forgeting that Spurrier was picking players for Spurrier. He went after every player he'd had in college that he could get, and he was pretty vocal about it in the press. He talked all the time about how his offense would overcome all and it didn't matter who the players were. I doubt Vinny had much to do with it, except perhaps the Ramsey pick. I'll disagree with this. Vinny had his share of picks in those years. The big problem then was there was no one at the top with a coherent plan on putting a team together. Spurrier would select some players, Vinny would pick some others and Snyder might have been involved with some of those decisions. One of the big lessons learned in there is putting a guy in charge who has the plan and sticks to it. Right now, that guy is Vinny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 If I select lottery numbers and they win, does that mean I have skill at picking lottery numbers? That's a silly analogy. There's no way, short of cheating, to successfully pick lottery numbers, other than by luck. Personnel evaluation, on the other hand, can be done by skill. So, unless you have some way of knowing that Cerrato was taking a shot in the dark, you can't ascribe it to luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stugein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 If he hadn't neglected the line to this point in the first place, we wouldn't have needed surprise production from random guys off the street. Lucking into a sort of fix for a problem that you created does not remove you from culpability. Had the line not been largely ignored we would've had the young, quality depth in place already and we wouldn't have struggled as much early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jflow78 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I'll agree with everything, except that I'm fairly sure Vinny didn't go out and hand pick Danny Waffle, and the other multitude of University of Florida alumni, I'd bet that was Spurrier all the way, but I agree, Vinny did have his hands in personnel and is not absolved of the poop that were the Skins during that time. I'll also agree with everything about rookies, except that all those penalties and mistakes that were repeatedly made by DT last season are partially the responsibilities of the coaching staff. Same with the constantly messed up routes, the repeatedly bad "execution" that Zorn liked to repeat EVERY week. Correcting that is his responsibility and on his shoulders alone, if veteran players are even making the same mistakes over and over again, then a large portion of that lands on the HC and his inability to either communicate what he wants, or by not being able to motivate his players, or by being a horrible coach. I don't think Zorn is necessarily a horrible coach, but I think he was far over his head with the amount of responsibility he had previous to Sherm Lewis' taking over playcalling and having input into the offensive gameplan. As far as the arguement that if Zorn has learned from his mistakes, the same could be used for Vinny and the recent success of DT, Fred Davis, and some of the OL. I wouldn't be sad to see everyone gone and start over (as far as the coaching staff goes, and a lot of the vets), but I wouldn't cry if they stayed either, at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngestson Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 A funny thing happened on the way to an historically bad season for the Washington Redskins; they started playing as well as anyone in the NFC East. And no-one can figure out why this is, or who gets the credit. We have yet to beat another team in the NFC East, so there is no way anyone can say this with any accuracy. Additionally, we have the worst record in the NFC East. So no, we are not playing as well as any team. If we beat NY and dallas and they somehow lose to KC, Carolina, and Detroit then we can talk. And as far as who gets the credit? Obviously the players who have not given up on a dreadful season. A four game stretch where we win ONE game in a season where we have lost twice as much as we have won and 10 years of bumbling, meddling, and flat-out stupidity is supposed to be forgotten? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Vinny screwed up? Sure, but he's not nearly the idiot that some of you think he is. Marty had him fired, no other team tried to hire him, so, I should say that he is closer to being labeled a football idiot rather than a football genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Adama Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 He is who we thought he was....and we let him off the hook! Sorry, that was my Dennis Green moment. Anyway, we have a couple pretty good games, and we're suddenly saying that everything is ok? I seriously do not think everything is ok. My 1 thing that I would want to see done, is replacing Vinny with a competent GM. I drink the kool-aid as much as any rose-colored glass wearing Redskin fan, but enough is enough. Please get Vinny out of there, and forbid Dan Snyder from having any hand in any GM / Coaching decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Well done, JJ. Vinny's a weasel, but our draft picks, on the whole, have been good since Joe left and Vinny took over. I posted an opinion several months ago that, just based on the raw talent I saw, the 2008 draft would someday be regarded as the second best Redskins draft in the last 30 years (Beathard's 1981 draft standing alone). It's still looking that way to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Vinny ignoring the OL for two years suddenly gets a pass? I think not. No, none is given by the article either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I understand what you're saying, but has the offensive line really played that badly lately? I don't think so, and those are the backups Cerrato brought in/relied on. Sure, they're not starters, but how many teams have more than one starter quality backup, or even any? Not many, I'd say.I'm starting to think that Cerrato is actually doing a decent job. I think the offensive line play credit HAS to go to coaching. I mean, you do have multiple top picks playing so talent is not a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 That's a silly analogy. There's no way, short of cheating, to successfully pick lottery numbers, other than by luck.Personnel evaluation, on the other hand, can be done by skill. So, unless you have some way of knowing that Cerrato was taking a shot in the dark, you can't ascribe it to luck. No but you can't say Vinny is vindicated either. Maybe he is a good judge of talent. But there has been a few of his picks that haven't panned out either. Point is, just because is may be a good judge of talent doesn't mean he is a good judge of how to build a TEAM. And I'm hesitant to say he is even a good judge of talent. I really wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't mostly luck. It's not like his later picks are making a run for the Pro Bowl. Yea, they can hold it together but lets not forget, we still haven't WON most of our recent games. And that's what matters :dallasuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I think it's because that is what the Front Office signed him for and they WANT it to work. I don't think the coaching staff has much say in who starts. The head coach didn't even have the say in who calls the plays.This is just a messed up structure. my point EXACTLY!!! Also see Jason Taylor of 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shemp nixon Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Wow, people defending vinny, I did not see this coming..... A couple of nice games and on go the blinders...... It is what it is people, 4 and 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Last two games have been good offensively. If that continues, we're on to something and Vinny's picks look a LOT better.If the team can hang with the good teams left on our schedule, and that means that Vinny finally gets it, great. If it means we're stuck with Vinny building a 4-9 (4-12, 5-11) team every year, this is bad. Ding! Vinny is not vindicated, though I do like the play on words. He is a massive reason that meaningless games in 2009 are when we're playing well and not throughout the entire decade that he's ruined. Two great games does not make up for the other 100 losses (guesstimate), many of which came from lack of addressing positions for multiple years or stupid trades/cuts (safety, corner, receiver, and the entire offensive line not named "Chris Samuels). BTW, HailGreen28, I'm very impressed (not that it means anything to you) that you pointed out our good offense for the last two games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hailskins11 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 The question there is who is making the decisions on the players that start. Usually that's the coaching staff, not the personnel guy. BINGO...the fact that our backups talent is so strong is because of Vinny, whether you like it or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Vinny deserves no vindication in my book. As has already been stated, his ignorance of the OL clearly shows that this guy doesn't know how to evaluate talent which is why he repeatedly ignores this area over and over again. He would rather look towards FAs than cultivate talent through the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hailskins11 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 It has never occured to anyone that maybe Vinny got kind of a raw deal. Everyone on this forum always mentions that a GM should be the one to hire our next coach. Maybe Vinny should have been more involved with who our head coach became. It seems like Sherm Lewis was the one guy that he brought without influence from Snyder. Maybe Vinny never really got a fair shot in choosing the right coach for his style of team he is building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Considering Zorn has said he likes ARE's "hands" back there, I don't see how that is Vinnie's fault. I was under the impression ARE's punt catching comes from the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Wow, people defending vinny, I did not see this coming..... A couple of nice games and on go the blinders...... It is what it is people, 4 and 9. this is why i root for losses at this point...........as sad as that makes me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.