Suffering from a loss of Identity without Williams and Gibbs

[hail2skins]

Hey, remember when we were 6-2 and people thought that we should give Gibbs credit for building that foundation with these players?

Um.... now that the team has imploded.... does anyone want to assign Gibbs the blame?!?! My guess, probably not.

DH, I'll try to be kind and refrain from using the word "blame," but it appears little has changed with this team. Gibbs had two seasons where this team was out of it early and two where this team was 5-3 at the halfway point. This team was 6-2. Both teams had signficant losing streaks. The team legitmately had the nice 2005 streak and last year Gibbs lucked into Campbell getting hurt and Collins being hot.

Unless you actually go all the way, bringing in an old guy like Gibbs for a few stopgap seasons is normally pointless. That's what I'm having trouble with. But having said that, with Zorn we do have the promise of stability.....gotta give him time now. What's the alternative.

[robotfire]

Williams learned alot from Gibbs and said he will come back if called and ill go out on a limb and say its time to make the call.

He said that? I agree, time to make the call.

What happens with our offense in that case? Does Zorn get demoted? Who takes over?

[jfr3ek]

i hate to say say this but...our playoff chances are over thanks to Zorn and his so called "westcoast offense," and O line. See everyone next year!

[celticsalmon]

Zorn deserves a chance to pick his OWN-professionals who love the game and understand it! He needs to hire his own coaches-Buges (sadly) and Danny Smith must go. AND he should have a real General Manager. He inherited many overpaid-underachievers while the front office stocked the shelves with Erasmus James? Jason Taylor?....etc.

That said, Zorn also needs to left go of his ego and learn from his mistakes.

[WARPATH '82]

Truth be told......Williams SHOULD have been the HC following Gibbs. I won't bash Zorn but I will bash DS and Vinny!! I know many of us was disappointed when Williams was passed over as the HC. I dont know why Williams would return if called back knowing the type of person that DS is. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but the Owner and GM should provide stability for the franchise. The hiring of Zorn was not needed just because Gibbs retired. We all know how Williams felt about ST and his defense. One would think that common sense would have prevailed and the next coach would not needed to have even been discussed.

Sure a few changes were needed, but not wholesale changes such as a new offensive scheme just when JC was getting comfortable in the old. But I hope that Zorn will somehow right the ship.

[Mursilis]

The revisionist history is hysterical! Did we EVER get pressure with GW? Did we EVER have a deep passing game under Gibbs 2.0? It's the same story!

So very true. The Gibbs homers all forget the fact that under Gibbs II, this team still lost more than it won. Gibbs' first season back only resulted in 6 wins. Zorn has already topped that mark.

[thewagen]

Couldn't agree more. But the blame lies with the U.S.S. Snyder and his crusty helmsman, Vinny "I'm CLUELESS" Cerrato. So to me, they ar egetting what they deserve...too DAMM bad the fans don't deserve this...

I keep wondering where they'd be if GW was made the HC, with AL S. doing "ALL" the calls???..... PLAYOFFS! That's where they would be...absolutely a NO DOUBTER!

[Shilsu]

The revisionist history is hysterical! Did we EVER get pressure with GW? Did we EVER have a deep passing game under Gibbs 2.0? It's the same story!

I really can't speak for why the emphasis went away after 2004 other than that he lacked personnel, but Gregg Williams did have the #9 (tied with a few others) sacking defense in his first year with scrubs like Wynn and Evans at the end. Even in the preseason game versus the Falcons, he showed he meant business by sending a dual corner blitz on the first play of the game and having Lavar Arrington destroy Michael Vick. Meanwhile, he was able to get 8 sacks from Phillip Daniels and 10.5 sacks from Andre Carter as the years went on.

In 2005, the Redskins were tied with two other teams for #4 in plays of 40+ despite having only Santana Moss being the only utilized receiver.

[Mursilis]

I keep wondering where they'd be if GW was made the HC, with AL S. doing "ALL" the calls???..... PLAYOFFS! That's where they would be...absolutely a NO DOUBTER!

Yeah, because both the teams those guys are now with are doing SO well!!

[Always Remember 21]

Personally, I would love to see Gregg Williams come back.

[Larry Brown #43]

we never finished beyond 10-6 with those guys and i know we had some nice runs towards the end of two seasons, but winning out to get the 6th seed in the playoffs only to get crushed in the post season doesnt seem like something our guys would envy.

Big difference: Those years, the team got better as the season went along. This year, the team is getting worse as the season goes along.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

So do I. So do I.

I think in a perfect world, Zorn would have been much better off working a year or two under Gibbs. I think JC would have developed a bit better with Zorn as his QB coach & Gibbs as his head coach.

But, Williams is under a one year contract in Jacksonville & has said he'd love to come back. Who knows what the future holds. Could be interesting to see how certain situations unfold. Or it could be nauseating.

Good call. I also think Zorn himself would have learned much about running a team from the Master. As far as accountability goes, no one can hold a candle to Gibbs. I too wish Zorn had a little time to work his way into this role before he was thrust into it. Add to that the fact that he's also calling the offensive plays, and he's got a TON on his plate that was never there before.

Mistakes were bound to be made. In retrospect it amazes me they weren't made sooner.

well put me in with TK cause i began stoking that fire a few days ago. This season is over in terms of playoffs and Williams is the answer i honestly believe with all my heart. When you have players from the offense and defensive side of the ball campaigning for you to get the job and your a hard nose no nonsens type of coach that speaks volumes.

Zorn shouldnt of even attempted to put poster boards of Taylor all over the facility and he shouldnt of commented about it in depth like he was here to suffer his loss with the other members of the team, organization, employees of redskins park, and even this community because he wasnt here and he didnt know him or what he meant to this team and community.

Zorn is like the step dad no one wanted in a sense and he disrespected the Redskins family of players by trying to act like he knows what they have been through when in reality he was a member of the organization that ended the Redskins run to honor there fallin family member.

I think Zorn will be a good coach but this was the wrong team for him and the wrong time honestly.

Again, LL, you depress me. Kidding. I know you suffer just like I do about the current state of this team, brother; you bring up things I guess I either hadn't considered or wasn't willing to look at closer. From his introductory presser, when he gaffed the "Maroon and Black" thing, to ST's induction and the week leading up to it, he's made some big mistakes that can only be putting more distance between he and his players.

Again, a new guy -- in more ways than one -- could reasonably be expected to make SOME of those mistakes...but perhaps not ALL of them. I still believe Zorn will be a good if not great coach too, and I'm still hoping it can happen for this franchise, but the light is fading fast in that respect.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

Hey, remember when we were 6-2 and people thought that we should give Gibbs credit for building that foundation with these players?

Um.... now that the team has imploded.... does anyone want to assign Gibbs the blame?!?! My guess, probably not.

While we may or may not make the playoffs this year, we did 2 out of the last 3 years under JG. With virtually the same personnel. The same amount of injuries. Not only that, ST's passing last year must have been an INCREDIBLY difficult distraction at first.

It still wasn't enough to keep the team from being dangerous. I believe every team in the NFC OTHER THAN Seattle was terrified of facing us last year in the playoffs, and the 'Hawks only because they (somewhat falsely, IMO) banked on the previous playoff game for their belief they could get the job done.

I see a roster very much the same but performances nothing like under Gibbs 2.0. The problems we experienced with his mental mistakes were HIS; the players still all left it on the field, each and every week. Now, not so much.

[Larry Brown #43]

I see a roster very much the same but performances nothing like under Gibbs 2.0.

Agreed. I don't believe we got to 6-2 this year with smoke and mirrors. Somehow the players just don't seem to be responding to the current coaching staff right now, particularly on offense.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

this team is in dire straights right now fellas and is in danger of pissing away everything that was built in the past 4 seasons.

I don't disagree with anything you have said.

However, I don't think we built anything all that special over the last 4 years. We became a team that could compete for a wild card spot every other year.

Yes, the team always played hard (except at the end of '06 if you want my opinion), but lots of bad teams play hard. I have a feeling that Mike Singletary could go 4-12 for the next ten seasons and his teams would always play hard.

How much of the problem is that we are a veteran-based team...but the vets don't exactly have the strongest pedigrees. Jon Jansen always seemed to be the leader of the offensive line, but at the end of the day, he's just Jon Jansen - a solid tackle for ten years.

Watching the Ravens last night was interesting in that Ray Lewis can say "I'm a world champion. I'm a two-time player of the year. And I killed a man. You need to follow my lead." Outside of London Fletcher, who on the defense can really say something like that and have people follow him? Is there anyone on the offense who can do that?

I feel like we have veterans but not necessarily veteran leadership. Gibbs and Williams were the leaders before, but I'm not sure that is the healthiest thing. The best teams seem to be led from within.

[zoony]

However' date=' I don't think we built anything all that special over the last 4 years. We became a team that could compete for a wild card spot every other year.

[/quote']

We were a QB away. Make no mistake, anything resembling franchise QB performance, and we were a SuperBowl team under Gibbs.

The closest we got was Brunell in 2005 before his knee injury. But even then, meh.

A Tom Brady or Carson Palmer or Peyton Manning etc- and we had the team to win it all. Just didn't happen though, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Gibbs brought in Brunell who he thought could tide us over until Campbell developed. Didn't happen really on either front.

.....

[TK]

Gibbs and Williams were the leaders before' date=' but I'm not sure that is the healthiest thing. The best teams seem to be led from within.[/quote']

They jettisioned guys like Robert Royal & Vernon Fox. Sean was murdered. And right now, about all you have is Portis & Fletcher. Maybe a few others. But again, the players & coaches need to have a 'Come to Jesus' meeting & their **** together.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

no faith and the fact that when we were 6-2 he was listening to in game suggestions from the players and that got them through to an extent. Zorn has since stoped listening and his way isnt working.

One of my biggest complaints with Gibbs is that he would try to get a run/pass balance for the first 10 games...and the O-line would adamentally refuse to do that...and he would finally give in and go run crazy...and the line would then play hard.

That's how we got the two playoff runs and Betts insane string of games.

It seems to be that there was a little of the inmates running things over the last four years too.

And there was always a player deep in Williams dog house.

We weren't exactly a well-oiled machine.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

We were a QB away. Make no mistake, anything resembling franchise QB performance, and we were a SuperBowl team under Gibbs.

The closest we got was Brunell in 2005 before his knee injury. But even then, meh.

A Tom Brady or Carson Palmer or Peyton Manning etc- and we had the team to win it all. Just didn't happen though, but it wasn't for lack of trying. Gibbs brought in Brunell who he thought could tide us over until Campbell developed. Didn't happen really on either front.

.....

Isn't that true of any playoff team with marginal QB though?

How scary are the Titans right now if you give them Peyton Manning?

Where would the Vikings be with, hell, Kerry Collins?

[tcb26]

This season in an inverse of our December run seasons..Zorn is learning how to use his pieces. We rode Clinton too early. Usually he's the horse down the stretch with the late kick, we got out too fast and too early on him.

Before, it would be November and CP would go to Gibbs and say I'm ready to carry the team, gimme the ball. This year he felt he had something to prove individually with a new coach, and his rep taking hits around the league and an unfamilair passing game on offense.

So we get out fast, leads the league in yds, talk of Hawaii etc., but no he has no juice left, and we as a team are sapped of our #1 strength Portis in December..Gibbs KNEW that... that comes with experience though cant blame Zorn for that

I hope thats why they sat him, to try to coax 3 (4 max) more weeks out those legs..

[zoony]

Isn't that true of any playoff team with marginal QB though?

Absolutely it is. True of the entire NFL, we've had that discussion

It was in response to your statement that nothing Gibbs built was really anything that special. I'm saying it was- just that (thru no fault of his own), the QB position never panned out.

[Rypien1191]

I'm sorry to say it folks, but when we lost our beloved #21 we lost more than just our best player, we lost an identity.... we don't have anyone who scares teams on either side of the ball.....

LL is an occasional playmaker but nowhere near was ST was...

Fletch is a baller but his career is fading....

CP is a warrior but hes not gonna be one to rally the troops.

Sellers could be it.. but he is getting up there in years too...

We need a face and a mentality on D that teams are gonna think about the week before playing us.... right now we have nothing like that on either side of the ball.

[tcb26]

I'm sorry to say it folks, but when we lost our beloved #21 we lost more than just our best player, we lost an identity.... we don't have anyone who scares teams on either side of the ball.....

LL is an occasional playmaker but nowhere near was ST was...

Fletch is a baller but his career is fading....

CP is a warrior but hes not gonna be one to rally the troops.

Sellers could be it.. but he is getting up there in years too...

We need a face and a mentality on D that teams are gonna think about the week before playing us.... right now we have nothing like that on either side of the ball.

You know who hits like Sean (not being sentimental this is actual fact) now....Ryan Clark...bring him back (wishful thinking)

[alwaysaskin]

This season in an inverse of our December run seasons..Zorn is learning how to use his pieces. We rode Clinton too early. Usually he's the horse down the stretch with the late kick, we got out too fast and too early on him.

Before, it would be November and CP would go to Gibbs and say I'm ready to carry the team, gimme the ball. This year he felt he had something to prove individually with a new coach, and his rep taking hits around the league and an unfamilair passing game on offense.

So we get out fast, leads the league in yds, talk of Hawaii etc., but no he has no juice left, and we as a team are sapped of our #1 strength Portis in December..Gibbs KNEW that... that comes with experience though cant blame Zorn for that

I hope thats why they sat him, to try to coax 3 (4 max) more weeks out those legs..

QFT, we might need to look at a back that we can use to split time with CP and let him rest until November and December, we tried with Alexander but we need to take a gamble in the draft and look at a guy who could take a third of the snaps early in the season, until November when Clinton is ready to be Clinton

[Lavarleap56]

I don't disagree with anything you have said.

However' date=' I don't think we built anything all that special over the last 4 years. We became a team that could compete for a wild card spot every other year.

Yes, the team always played hard (except at the end of '06 if you want my opinion), but lots of bad teams play hard. I have a feeling that Mike Singletary could go 4-12 for the next ten seasons and his teams would always play hard.

How much of the problem is that we are a veteran-based team...but the vets don't exactly have the strongest pedigrees. Jon Jansen always seemed to be the leader of the offensive line, but at the end of the day, he's just Jon Jansen - a solid tackle for ten years.

Watching the Ravens last night was interesting in that Ray Lewis can say "I'm a world champion. I'm a two-time player of the year. And I killed a man. You need to follow my lead." Outside of London Fletcher, who on the defense can really say something like that and have people follow him? Is there anyone on the offense who can do that?

I feel like we have veterans but not necessarily veteran leadership. Gibbs and Williams were the leaders before, but I'm not sure that is the healthiest thing. The best teams seem to be led from within.[/quote']

There was alot that built from this team over the past four seasons if anyone remembers how this team played before Gibbs and Williams arrival. During the Norv and Spurrier years the team would get punched in the mouth in the first quarter and would be shell shocked and looked lost for the rest of the game.

Gibbs isnt coming back everyone knows that and as much as he did for this team he held the team back last season by him and Saunders struggling with what offense to run and the confusion it caused. Gibbs left due to realizing how short life can be after the taylor tragedy and what it meant to be with his grandson. Gibbs also left after realizing that he was indeed holding the team back and had Saunders truly been given the rains to the offense and allowed to pick the starter for his offense this team would have been dominant and they proved it last season.

I don't mean to depress anyone but i have been a fan of this team for 23 years and have seen alot of great times and a lot of bad times since 1992 and i cant take it anymore. The Redskins losing games is one thing but the way they are losing them is a whole different ball game and its disgusting to watch. Over the past four years we may have lost some games but i wasn't embarrassed to be a skins fan in public like i was during the norv and spurrier years and as each week passes those feelings are coming back.

Gibbs and Williams brought back to this team the togetherness of being a family, pride of being a Redskin , accountability to each other, and don't embarrass the Redskins and all of the above are fading fast and something needs to change before its gone for another 10 years if not more.

The Redskins have been a good football team under what type of coaches since 1992 and teams take on the identity of the head man and look around and see whats going on with the team and this identity sucks. Williams will without a doubt comeback to Washington if that call is made and he may not be the answer either to bring the next championship to D.C. but i 100 percent believe he is the guy to give us something to be proud to watch on the field week in and week out.

Williams wants to come back and if Snyder sucks it up and makes the call he will come back question is does that call get made?? Imagine what this team looks like if the defensive players beside to pack it in for the remaining 3 games ?? god awful to even think about.

Football is about Fire and emotion and imposing your will on the other team and as the season goes along we keep getting farther and farther away from playing with any of the above.

If you haven't already read this article its good reading and Williams saying he will come back to DC if called.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/25/AR2008082502867.html?sid=ST2008082503355&s_pos=