Suffering from a loss of Identity without Williams and Gibbs

[BigRedskinDaddy]

LL, as much as I agree with you, or at least see the logic in your post, I don't see GW coming back here. I don't dispute that he WOULD. I just believe that neither the Dan nor Vinny would admit what to them would be a colossal blunder by canning their guy after one year and bringing back the man who was right in front of their faces.

No way on this earth they could suffer that big a blow to their respective egos.

[Lavarleap56]

LL, as much as I agree with you, or at least see the logic in your post, I don't see GW coming back here. I don't dispute that he WOULD. I just believe that neither the Dan nor Vinny would admit what to them would be a colossal blunder by canning their guy after one year and bringing back the man who was right in front of their faces.

No way on this earth they could suffer that big a blow to their respective egos.

i hear you on that man but you never know

[TK]

i hear you on that man but you never know

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If all of this was just a big buildup to a pitch for firing Zorn and bringing in Williams, well, color me a little disappointed.

Williams isn't a miracle worker. His career has plenty of failure in it. (He hasn't exactly set the league on fire in Jacksonville). And I'm not sure what coming in now and trying to squeeze one more years worth of blood from the stone that is this London Fletcher-led defense is going to do. Particularly, when you have no idea what a Gregg Williams-led offense will look like.

And I don't care what it says about Danny and Vinny's egos. The message to the team would be one of "Your ownership and Front Office have no idea what we are doing, and we have no faith in our convictions."

[Lavarleap56]

If all of this was just a big buildup to a pitch for firing Zorn and bringing in Williams' date=' well, color me a little disappointed.

Williams isn't a miracle worker. His career has plenty of failure in it. (He hasn't exactly set the league on fire in Jacksonville). And I'm not sure what coming in now and trying to squeeze one more years worth of blood from the stone that is this London Fletcher-led defense is going to do. Particularly, when you have no idea what a Gregg Williams-led offense will look like.[/quote']

not at all a big build up to anything man, some people in this thread openly questioned if Williams would even come back and i posted the article that had his quotes that essentially said he would.

[addicted]

I'd like all of you in this thread to answer something for me...

4 out of 5 games...

1. Pittsburgh - Number 1 ranked Defense in the league

2. Dallas - 13 Wins last year coming off a bye with its QB returning playing for its playoff lives

3. Seattle - Absolutely terrible team

4. Giants - Superbowl defending team had lost once all year before we played them

5. Ravens - Number 2 ranked Defense in the league

4 out of these 5 games we lost. Can you guess which one we won?

We've won seven games this year, look at who we've beaten:

1. New Orleans - Bad team

2. Arizona - Bad team in the playoffs due to weak division

3. Dallas - Battled injuries all year, overlooked us and used a bad game plan against us

4. Eagles - They've played to there competition all year, one week good, one bad

5. Cleveland - Terrible team

6. Detroit - Winless

7. Seattle - Terrible

Seven wins against who? One playoff team in there? Who the hell did we beat this year to make you all feel as if this was a playoff or even a good team? All of this crap talk about Zorn losing the team, bringing back Greg Williams, and player speak is all bs. Its called crying in your beer because you got your feelings hurt that we weren't good enough to beat the best in the league...Good God, some of you need a lesson on having some appropriate expectations for a change.

3 games left to go. If Zorn continues his pattern of beating the bad teams we are going to beat Cinncinnatti and the 49ers. If the Eagles play to its competition then I think we can beat them, ending the season with the same record we had last year with Gibbs = 10-6. We probably miss the playoffs barely but there are a lot more teams in this year with good records then in years past. If there weren't we would probably make the playoffs this year like in previous years and lose to a better team like we did last year as well.

Who in there right mind thought that we had a Superbowl team after beating some bad teams this year? I'm sorry that some of you thought that we had the inside track to the Superbowl since NY Giants won it last year but hey, time to wake up and see what we have here. We are a year removed from having to win the last 4 games of the year to get in the playoffs. What's the difference? Last year we beat a bunch of creampuffs who were sitting players to get into the playoffs. We are who we were last year under this reigme, a bad offense with a bad QB. An above average Defense but not good enough to win by itself. Spotty special teams. Not much has changed. Except many of you want to keep looking behind us and dragging up the past.

When you put one foot on tomorrow and one on yesterday your forgetting today. The only thing this team needs to do right now is to remember one game at a time, forget the other crap. I swear some Redskins fans just can not get over the past!

[sly]

ending the season with the same record we had last year with Gibbs = 10-6.

You mean 9-7.

Last year we beat a bunch of creampuffs who were sitting players to get into the playoffs.

The only game I can think where a team rested players was the final one against Dallas. Even then they had starters playing through the first drive or two into the 3rd quarter. The other teams were still fighting to make the playoffs: Bears, Giants, and Vikings.

[tcb26]

I'd like all of you in this thread to answer something for me...

4 out of 5 games...

1. Pittsburgh - Number 1 ranked Defense in the league

2. Dallas - 13 Wins last year coming off a bye with its QB returning playing for its playoff lives

3. Seattle - Absolutely terrible team

4. Giants - Superbowl defending team had lost once all year before we played them

5. Ravens - Number 2 ranked Defense in the league

4 out of these 5 games we lost. Can you guess which one we won?

We've won seven games this year, look at who we've beaten:

1. New Orleans - Bad team

2. Arizona - Bad team in the playoffs due to weak division

3. Dallas - Battled injuries all year, overlooked us and used a bad game plan against us

4. Eagles - They've played to there competition all year, one week good, one bad

5. Cleveland - Terrible team

6. Detroit - Winless

7. Seattle - Terrible

Seven wins against who? One playoff team in there? Who the hell did we beat this year to make you all feel as if this was a playoff or even a good team? All of this crap talk about Zorn losing the team, bringing back Greg Williams, and player speak is all bs. Its called crying in your beer because you got your feelings hurt that we weren't good enough to beat the best in the league...Good God, some of you need a lesson on having some appropriate expectations for a change.

3 games left to go. If Zorn continues his pattern of beating the bad teams we are going to beat Cinncinnatti and the 49ers. If the Eagles play to its competition then I think we can beat them, ending the season with the same record we had last year with Gibbs = 10-6. We probably miss the playoffs barely but there are a lot more teams in this year with good records then in years past. If there weren't we would probably make the playoffs this year like in previous years and lose to a better team like we did last year as well.

Who in there right mind thought that we had a Superbowl team after beating some bad teams this year? I'm sorry that some of you thought that we had the inside track to the Superbowl since NY Giants won it last year but hey, time to wake up and see what we have here. We are a year removed from having to win the last 4 games of the year to get in the playoffs. What's the difference? Last year we beat a bunch of creampuffs who were sitting players to get into the playoffs. We are who we were last year under this reigme, a bad offense with a bad QB. An above average Defense but not good enough to win by itself. Spotty special teams. Not much has changed. Except many of you want to keep looking behind us and dragging up the past.

When you put one foot on tomorrow and one on yesterday your forgetting today. The only thing this team needs to do right now is to remember one game at a time, forget the other crap. I swear some Redskins fans just can not get over the past!

Right now we are doing what average teams do..beat the bad teams (for the most part..STL!!!!!!) And maybe sneak a few from better teams: DAL, and PHI on the road. Next we must protect home, and learn how to finish games and seasons. Then the defeat of elite teams will follow..it might make a year or two...

[Voice_of_Reason]

Right now we are doing what average teams do..beat the bad teams (for the most part..STL!!!!!!) And maybe sneak a few from better teams: DAL, and PHI on the road. Next we must protect home, and learn how to finish games and seasons. Then the defeat of elite teams will follow..it might make a year or two...

You're exactly right. Let me point out 2 things:

1. What's frustrating everybody is that the offense seems to have regressed in the last month. Now, I am not sure that it has regressed as much as others, I think they've played the best defenses in the NFL, but whenever you lose 4 of 5 and score 10 points a game if lucky, people are going to get ticked, and they are going to call for the firing, benching and release of everybody.

2. The other point is that your post indicates that the team KNOWS HOW TO BUILD. Which, honestly, even as much of an optomist as I might be, this FO has not shown. Gibbs was able to spin hay into gold twice, in 2005 and 2007 to make the playoffs because he was Gibbs. Gibbs can do that. Zorn can't. Very few people can.

In order for the Average Team to become an elite team, what they need to do is build on what they have. Unfortunately, the roster just isn't very talented. They are marginally better than the bad teams and nowhere close to the great teams.

The O-Line stinks. STINKS. They have to replace all 5 members in the next 2 years. The D-Line stinks. STINKS. They have to replace 3 of the 4 members in the next 2 years. (Carter probably can stick around. Taylor and the DTs are all gone.

So, can this FO fill the holes and improve the team? I hope so, but I don't know.

[addicted]

You mean 9-7.

Really? I thought we only lost 6 games so far this year. If we beat out we have a 10-6 record. I just checked that, I know I'm right. Just kidding you

[addicted]

Right now we are doing what average teams do..beat the bad teams (for the most part..STL!!!!!!) And maybe sneak a few from better teams: DAL, and PHI on the road. Next we must protect home, and learn how to finish games and seasons. Then the defeat of elite teams will follow..it might make a year or two...

Exactly brother. People are acting as if were not capable of beating the bad teams we face. We've been able to do that. We still have bad teams on the table to go. All of the negativity just doesn't make sense unless you believe that if you beat the bad teams your supposed to go to the playoffs....:doh:

[sly]

not at all a big build up to anything man, some people in this thread openly questioned if Williams would even come back and i posted the article that had his quotes that essentially said he would.

I think Williams would come back if the opportunity presented itself, but it'd be a mistake by the front office to fire Zorn and give the head coaching position to Gregg. The only way I can see GW back is if Blache retires.

The powers that be already made their decision after last season. The players and the fans have to deal with that. Obviously the team has holes... but rebooting with another offense and new personnel would be devastating.

Lets look to the Giants last season. It was season four under Coughlin... they were coming off a season in which they barely made the playoffs and then started off the new season a meager 0-2. Players (and former players) were throwing coaches under the bus... Barber retired.... Strahan had his offseason hold-out.... and Eli Manning was a few more INTs away from being named a bust. Guess what happened? They won. And kept winning (even weathering an almost late season collapse). Players then all of a sudden bought into what the coaches were saying. People were held accountable.

Amazing what winning does.

The Redskins need to stick with the current system... ride out the storm... and see what happens. You can't keep starting over every year or two.

[addicted]

You're exactly right. Let me point out 2 things:

1. What's frustrating everybody is that the offense seems to have regressed in the last month. Now, I am not sure that it has regressed as much as others, I think they've played the best defenses in the NFL, but whenever you lose 4 of 5 and score 10 points a game if lucky, people are going to get ticked, and they are going to call for the firing, benching and release of everybody.

My post was simple...look at our record and who we've beaten. The best team we've beaten this year is Arizona. Big deal If you get so angry you can't beat the best then good, that shows you care. That's not hopelessness. If we were losing to Detroit Lions I'd be the 1st one on here saying "Fire Zorn" but that's not the case. We've screwed up once this year losing to the Rams. I excuse that loss because of what was happening to them at the time - new coach, off a bye week - perfect storm. If we can continue to beat the teams we are supposed to and create a better line, the future looks good to me.

2. The other point is that your post indicates that the team KNOWS HOW TO BUILD. Which, honestly, even as much of an optomist as I might be, this FO has not shown. Gibbs was able to spin hay into gold twice, in 2005 and 2007 to make the playoffs because he was Gibbs. Gibbs can do that. Zorn can't. Very few people can.

Spin gold? I'm wondering if you need to choose another name? What exactly did Gibbs do that Zorn can't with these same players? Gibbs got us in the playoffs with a 10-6 record. Zorn still can have a 10-6 record. Playoffs are out of our hands pretty much and we'd need help to get in but so did Gibbs. Gibbs didn't have some wicked powers over other teams needing to lose for us to get in. And Gibbs won us 1 playoff game in 4 years and last year we bailed out immediately. I think either you've been hitting the sause early today or you have some sort of weird imagination that Gibbs 2 was anything special. Gibbs1 was special, Gibbs2 was average.

In order for the Average Team to become an elite team, what they need to do is build on what they have. Unfortunately, the roster just isn't very talented. They are marginally better than the bad teams and nowhere close to the great teams.

I agree with you. So why are you surprised we lost to the best teams in the league? Gibbs2 lost to the best team in the league last season 52-7 or something like that. We've gotten beaten by the best teams this year and never like that.

The O-Line stinks. STINKS. They have to replace all 5 members in the next 2 years. The D-Line stinks. STINKS. They have to replace 3 of the 4 members in the next 2 years. (Carter probably can stick around. Taylor and the DTs are all gone.

So, can this FO fill the holes and improve the team? I hope so, but I don't know.

Only one way to find out right :helmet:

[TK]

I think Williams would come back if the opportunity presented itself, but it'd be a mistake by the front office to fire Zorn and give the head coaching position to Gregg. The only way I can see GW back is if Blache retires.

There's another way.

Mora Jr takes the Washington State job.

Zorn makes a lateral move back to Seattle.

GW named new Skins HC.

GW names a recently departed from St Louis Al Saunders as OC.

Open QB competition between JC, Al's boy TC15, & CB5.

Dan puts me on the payroll for this bit of brilliance.:silly:

[tonyriggins]

We were a QB away. Make no mistake, anything resembling franchise QB performance, and we were a SuperBowl team under Gibbs.

And the problem was that Joe Gibbs didnt respect the QB position. He thought you could stick anybody in there and it would go. He let his ego get into the way, Brunell should have been gone after that first year. His downfall was the quarterback he chose.

[Lavarleap56]

I'd like all of you in this thread to answer something for me...

4 out of 5 games...

1. Pittsburgh - Number 1 ranked Defense in the league

2. Dallas - 13 Wins last year coming off a bye with its QB returning playing for its playoff lives

3. Seattle - Absolutely terrible team

4. Giants - Superbowl defending team had lost once all year before we played them

5. Ravens - Number 2 ranked Defense in the league

4 out of these 5 games we lost. Can you guess which one we won?

We've won seven games this year, look at who we've beaten:

1. New Orleans - Bad team

2. Arizona - Bad team in the playoffs due to weak division

3. Dallas - Battled injuries all year, overlooked us and used a bad game plan against us

4. Eagles - They've played to there competition all year, one week good, one bad

5. Cleveland - Terrible team

6. Detroit - Winless

7. Seattle - Terrible

Seven wins against who? One playoff team in there? Who the hell did we beat this year to make you all feel as if this was a playoff or even a good team? All of this crap talk about Zorn losing the team, bringing back Greg Williams, and player speak is all bs. Its called crying in your beer because you got your feelings hurt that we weren't good enough to beat the best in the league...Good God, some of you need a lesson on having some appropriate expectations for a change.

3 games left to go. If Zorn continues his pattern of beating the bad teams we are going to beat Cinncinnatti and the 49ers. If the Eagles play to its competition then I think we can beat them, ending the season with the same record we had last year with Gibbs = 10-6. We probably miss the playoffs barely but there are a lot more teams in this year with good records then in years past. If there weren't we would probably make the playoffs this year like in previous years and lose to a better team like we did last year as well.

Who in there right mind thought that we had a Superbowl team after beating some bad teams this year? I'm sorry that some of you thought that we had the inside track to the Superbowl since NY Giants won it last year but hey, time to wake up and see what we have here. We are a year removed from having to win the last 4 games of the year to get in the playoffs. What's the difference? Last year we beat a bunch of creampuffs who were sitting players to get into the playoffs. We are who we were last year under this reigme, a bad offense with a bad QB. An above average Defense but not good enough to win by itself. Spotty special teams. Not much has changed. Except many of you want to keep looking behind us and dragging up the past.

When you put one foot on tomorrow and one on yesterday your forgetting today. The only thing this team needs to do right now is to remember one game at a time, forget the other crap. I swear some Redskins fans just can not get over the past!

Have to laugh at this sorry bro. the problem is what your hearing in some of the media isnt really whats going on in reality. Players are pretty much saying ##CK Zorn and distention is occurring and has been occurring. Point blank Zorn is lost and doesn't know how to run a dynamic offense and hes clueless.

Good coaches adjust week in and week out and Zorn has not adjusted to anything since the loss to the rams and that is the issue. Players have already started booking flights back home as soon as 12/30/09 and the season isnt even over yet. I honestly feel some skins fans cant deal with the truth on this board and in general. Regardless of what happens its going to be a up hill battle for the Redskins and its either gonna involve gutting and clearing the roster and rebuilding or coach Zorn is gonna get the old melted vanilla ice cream next to his office after the San Fransisco game and either one of those options isnt pretty.

The QB while i believe in Campbell is still up in the air and contrary to what most of this people on this board believe or what the media believes dont exactly have 100% faith in Campbell or Zorn.

point blank this team has gotten worse in every game since the bye week and that trend will continue minus spectacular individual performances which are a possibility.

The Redskins tradition is being tarnished and has the years have gone by it seems half the fan base has been transformed into excuse makers and eternal optimist but its time to call a spade a spade.

[33]

The QB while i believe in Campbell is still up in the air and contrary to what most of this people on this board believe or what the media believes dont exactly have 100% faith in Campbell or Zorn.

Can you re-state this thought? I don't particularly follow if you're saying YOU don't have 100% faith in the QB and HC, or that the team doesn't.

[DixieFlatline]

Have to laugh at this sorry bro. the problem is what your hearing in some of the media isnt really whats going on in reality. Players are pretty much saying ##CK Zorn and distention is occurring and has been occurring. Point blank Zorn is lost and doesn't know how to run a dynamic offense and hes clueless.

Good coaches adjust week in and week out and Zorn has not adjusted to anything since the loss to the rams and that is the issue. Players have already started booking flights back home as soon as 12/30/09 and the season isnt even over yet. I honestly feel some skins fans cant deal with the truth on this board and in general. Regardless of what happens its going to be a up hill battle for the Redskins and its either gonna involve gutting and clearing the roster and rebuilding or coach Zorn is gonna get the old melted vanilla ice cream next to his office after the San Fransisco game and either one of those options isnt pretty.

The QB while i believe in Campbell is still up in the air and contrary to what most of this people on this board believe or what the media believes dont exactly have 100% faith in Campbell or Zorn.

point blank this team has gotten worse in every game since the bye week and that trend will continue minus spectacular individual performances which are a possibility.

The Redskins tradition is being tarnished and has the years have gone by it seems half the fan base has been transformed into excuse makers and eternal optimist but its time to call a spade a spade.

It pains me to read this and other posts in this thread, but if true, I'd rather know it.

[twenty-eight]

Out of curiosity which players are you tlaking about being premaddonas in your original post? I guess Clinton comes to mind?

Great thread:cheers:

[BigRedskinDaddy]

There's another way.

Mora Jr takes the Washington State job.

Zorn makes a lateral move back to Seattle.

GW named new Skins HC.

GW names a recently departed from St Louis Al Saunders as OC.

Open QB competition between JC, Al's boy TC15, & CB5.

Dan puts me on the payroll for this bit of brilliance.:silly:

Not to split hairs, brother, but the Cougars aren't in the market for a HC. The U of Washington Huskies are.

If it helps I think you should still be put on the payroll.

[Lavarleap56]

Can you re-state this thought? I don't particularly follow if you're saying YOU don't have 100% faith in the QB and HC, or that the team doesn't.

team

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

we just dont have the personnel to beat top tier teams. we dont have a single playmaker in our front 7 on defense. no demarcus ware. no jared allen. no albert haynesworth. sure weve got fletcher whos solid and monty whos a good run stuffer, but were a blue collar defense without a beast. in the secondary weve got a few playmakers, hall and landry and rogers could be. either way, without a scary guy in your front 7, youre not gonna stop top tier teams.

we dont have the oline to win games. they were playing awesome in the beginning of the year, but i predicted this last year, i just didnt think it would come so quick. were friggin old. super old. everyone is 31+. jansen is washed up. rabach is getting baaaad. our guard are ok but for how long? and samuels is getting to that twilight stage, barring how well he comes back next season. time to rebuild this line.

were also missing the legit receiver. moss is an awesome slot/deep guy, thats it. hes not gonna make leaping grabs over CBs, or catch a pass in the endzone in crunch time, or be able to take a punishing shot over the middle, hes 180lbs. hopefully kelly and thomas can be these dudes, thats yet to be seen.

we have a lot of holes, and we squeaked by some good teams this year to get to 6-2, but we have yet to dominate a single team this year. we didnt have a 49ers game in 05, or a lions game in 07. were an average to below average team with a good record.

*cries*

[SMOSS89]

I'll say this:

There have been far worse "nightmare" stories with a particular coaching staff that have been dealt with in house without blowing things up and it wound up working. The 2008 Redskins are in no way a team beyond repair coaching staff/personnel wise. Obviously we have holes to fill but I'd say the Giants of last year are a great example of how a coach can turn around and make adjustments for his players.

Hell, when Gibbs went 0-5 he had to do some soul searching. The problem for Zorn is he started 4-1 and everyone's expectations went up so when this stuff happens everyone starts freaking out. I'm not making excuses for anyone I am just saying yes, right now, we are a mess. There's no way there ain't some locker room dissention goin on, finger pointing, or whatever. But this situation can be resolved as there have been PLENTY of situations in years past where coaches and/or players got their act together (with a mix of some good personnel moves) and rally together to become a team.

I'm sure people are sick of the offense but what are you gonna do now? Quit? Their job is to play football, coach football and go out there and win some damn football games. You gotta keep truckin no matter what this season, and deal with personnel matters/ lockeroom issues in the offseason because right now it's a mess.

It's bad but it can be resolved. Period.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

LL, I know you're not in favor of this, but assuming Zorn does stay on as HC, what needs to happen in your opinion for him to win the locker room back? Does the team need to be blown up and completely re-tooled in a WCO image, or can something less drastic happen?

Thanks for your time brother.

[maskedsuperstar]

Sounds like a lot of whining going on. Zorn flat out identified the problem on offense. The OL is having issues with pass protection. WR's are running down the field open and Jason can't throw the ball when he is on his back. The WCO is a passing offense. Zorn had to rely on Portis because of protection break downs. The Skins didn't have this problem early on. But it can be fixed. Zorn is not over his head. Thats BS. Jansen has had it. Samuels is done for the year, and he had been playing with a bad knee. Not making any excuses but those are the facts. So, we should expect the OL to be looked at in the offseason.