Suffering from a loss of Identity without Williams and Gibbs

[Lavarleap56]

Campbell has all physical tools to be a big time QB in this league but is just missing something and no one can figure it out. Im not a Colt Brennan advocate by no means for he is young and very raw with his fundamentals BUT players on the team all say the same thing he has a IT factor and a swagger about him on the field. Campbell plays to not make mistakes and is almost afraid to make them and the result is he over thinks and doesn't trust his eyes or instincts.

Jason needs to get over that and trust what his eyes see and let the ball go without thinking about it to much. I only mentioned Brennan for what some of the players say about him and by no means am i insinuating that Brennan should play this season. Does anyone remember when colt came into the pre-season game in the 4th quarter and lead the comeback ?? two things stick out that even though it was a pre-season game there very telling.

1) Santana Moss- coming off the field jumping up and down and yelling " did you see that, now that is how a QB is suppose to play"

2) Brennan didn't go to the receiver that the play was designed to go to start that last drive off ( think it was man on the 30 yard post route) colt was apologizing to Zorn for going with a different receiver but the safety crept up to defend a underneath route and the route came open and he took a chance.

Campbell doesn't do that or has not shown recently that he is able to react that quickly. Campbell these past few games looks lost if the play design isnt perfect and the intended route is covered.

[HailGreen28]

Sounds like a lot of whining going on. Zorn flat out identified the problem on offense. The OL is having issues with pass protection. WR's are running down the field open and Jason can't throw the ball when he is on his back. The WCO is a passing offense. Zorn had to rely on Portis because of protection break downs. The Skins didn't have this problem early on. But it can be fixed. Zorn is not over his head. Thats BS. Jansen has had it. Samuels is done for the year, and he had been playing with a bad knee. Not making any excuses but those are the facts. So, we should expect the OL to be looked at in the offseason.

I just hope Vinny doesn't fall back on his "throw away draft picks for veterans past their prime" strategy.:deal:

:puke:

[maskedsuperstar]

With all due respect.....it doesn't matter who the coach is.

When you have no offensive or defensive line, and no GM who values either.....God himself couldn't build a consistent winner.

:2cents:

How do you know Vinny doesn't value OL or DL? Vinny wasn't in charge of player personnel the last 4 years. It was Gibbs. Thats what fans seem to forget. Vinny worked under Gibbs. Gibbs had the final say. So, Zorn is playing with Gibbs players. Vinny drafted 10 players, in April. Rinehart(OL) was taken in the 3rd round. Jackson a DE was taken in the 7th. So, what in the **** are you talking about?

[Lavarleap56]

How do you know Vinny doesn't value OL or DL? Vinny wasn't in charge of player personnel the last 4 years. It was Gibbs. Thats what fans seem to forget. Vinny worked under Gibbs. Gibbs had the final say. So, Zorn is playing with Gibbs players. Vinny drafted 10 players, in April. Rinehart(OL) was taken in the 3rd round. Jackson a DE was taken in the 7th. So, what in the **** are you talking about?

Vinny saying on redskins radio after the draft that OL and DL can be found in the later rounds and doesn't feel like you should take them in the first or second round.

[maskedsuperstar]

I just hope Vinny doesn't fall back on his "throw away draft picks for veterans past their prime" strategy.:deal:

:puke:

All I am saying is give the man a chance. Didn't do the FA thing in offseason, and the fans had the nerve to whine. You can vomit all you want. Gibbs is the one who was in fact, director of player personnel. Fans forget that. It wasn't Vinny. He didn't have the final say. Joe did. It was Joe Gibbs draft.

[maskedsuperstar]

Vinny saying on redskins radio after the draft that OL and DL can be found in the later rounds and doesn't feel like you should take them in the first or second round.

Was he right? What DL is blowing it up in the league, from this past draft? NONE!!!! Not Chris Long or Vernon Gholston. And they went in the top 10. Gholston doesn't even play. Calais Campbell went in the 2nd round, when about 80% of the mocks had him going to the Skins. And he isn't doing s***!!!!

Look at the Giants OL, the best in football. 2 undrafted free agents, a 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick, and a 5th round pick. Case closed.

[MumboSauce]

Todd Collins is our Savior!!! please plug him in and all will be right as rain with the world of the Redskins. Please oh please! smh

Oh and I liked what Gregg Williams gave us. Gibbs needed to move on though.

[Lavarleap56]

Was he right? What DL is blowing it up in the league, from this past draft? NONE!!!! Not Chris Long or Vernon Gholston. And they went in the top 10. Gholston doesn't even play. Calais Campbell went in the 2nd round, when about 80% of the mocks had him going to the Skins. And he isn't doing s***!!!!

Look at the Giants OL, the best in football. 2 undrafted free agents, a 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick, and a 5th round pick. Case closed.

He specifically said overall and not just the past draft dating back to his time in san fran 2.

[Lavarleap56]

and he also said you take playmakers at skill positions early in the draft and look how well that did for us.

[section 130]

First off thank you to LavarLeap for the information. Ever since Zorn was hired as HC I have always looked at him as an outsider. I was an advocate for Williams and believe it or not Saunders. Going to the game I noticed a huge change in scheme when Collins became the starter. It was a huge change in what we were seeing from the offense when Campbell was in there. I am a Redskin fan and root for whoever is taking snaps for the burgundy and gold and have no ill will towards Campbell. What LL is saying all makes sense man, it makes scary sense.

Zorn has lost this team. I thought it was odd when he was speaking about Sean like he was here and went throught what WE went through. As a fan this was odd but can you imagine if you were a teammate and heard this? Not only that, but he benches the heart and soul of the offense just to basically make a point. Before reading this today, and viewing that sideline last night from my seats I had a bad feeling that the team had given up on their coach. Now it is confirmed and in all reality we as a fanbase lose.

We are in critical condition as a team now. Isn't it ironic that the only person that can save us is the man that is responsible? Until Danny can find a new raquetball partner and bring in a GM we all pay. The real shame is that we could have had something special with the guys that we have here now. I fear that the window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller if has not closed.

LL, Is this rift between Portis and Zorn as bad as I think it is? From where I was sitting last night (very close to the Skins sideline), it didn't look good.

[REEGSKINS]

LavarLeap56 has proven in the past to know things. I was afraid of this before he said anything, and now I feel like there's a pretty decent confirmation from him. If I had to bet, he's passing on what's being said by people within the organization.

This team has no heart right now.

who cares what he says. im sure it is true , but look at the way the giant vets were hating on tommy c. how did that turn out once they got rid of the crybaby vets.

[TK]

Campbell has all physical tools to be a big time QB in this league but is just missing something and no one can figure it out. Im not a Colt Brennan advocate by no means for he is young and very raw with his fundamentals BUT players on the team all say the same thing he has a IT factor and a swagger about him on the field. Campbell plays to not make mistakes and is almost afraid to make them and the result is he over thinks and doesn't trust his eyes or instincts.

Jason needs to get over that and trust what his eyes see and let the ball go without thinking about it to much. I only mentioned Brennan for what some of the players say about him and by no means am i insinuating that Brennan should play this season. Does anyone remember when colt came into the pre-season game in the 4th quarter and lead the comeback ?? two things stick out that even though it was a pre-season game there very telling.

1) Santana Moss- coming off the field jumping up and down and yelling " did you see that, now that is how a QB is suppose to play"

2) Brennan didn't go to the receiver that the play was designed to go to start that last drive off ( think it was man on the 30 yard post route) colt was apologizing to Zorn for going with a different receiver but the safety crept up to defend a underneath route and the route came open and he took a chance.

Campbell doesn't do that or has not shown recently that he is able to react that quickly. Campbell these past few games looks lost if the play design isn't perfect and the intended route is covered.

While I think CB5 will have a good future in the league, I don't see it starting in the next 3 weeks. I agree he does seem to have that 'IT' factor & swagger about him. Maybe there will be an open competition next camp, but I'm not going to expect it. The FO brought Zorn in with the explicit notion of developing JC & getting him to become the franchise QB we've not had since Joey T.

JC just seems like he's reverted into a Gibbs QB that plays to play mistake free football. It's like he's scared ****less to make a single mistake by actually taking a chance. After the first NY game, it seemed like the entire offense loosened up & had a swagger about them.

The regression may have started with the Rams loss, but it seems like everything came to head & went nuclear about the the time of the Steeler loss/start of the Bye week/anniversary of Sean's passing.

[bulldog]

Zorn is not impressing me with his demeanor the past several weeks. He is continuing to analyze the plays missed in his press conferences, but doesn't seem to be providing any demonstrable leadership in working to get these guys motivated to break through the rut and come on in these last 3 games.

The Redskins came out flat emotionally against Dallas and were completely overmatched by the intensity of the Ravens.

[section 130]

Zorn is not impressing me with his demeanor the past several weeks. He is continuing to analyze the plays missed in his press conferences, but doesn't seem to be providing any demonstrable leadership in working to get these guys motivated to break through the rut and come on in these last 3 games.

The Redskins came out flat emotionally against Dallas and were completely overmatched by the intensity of the Ravens.

I agree 100% bulldog. How can you get motivated by a guy that has yet to take any kind of responsibility for the teams play or lack of motivation?

[33]

The following quote from Zorn says something about the lack of identity.

"And that's why you don't get so high when things are going good. I mean, we won seven games and probably no one thought we were going to be where we were, 6-2. And now the wins have come sparsely, but we still have to stay in there, and I've got a couple things to address the team about with that very thing.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2008/12/zorn_gets_philosophical.html

To point out that at one point we were better than expected is not even a moral victory. Especially considering the FO obviously thought this team should be in the playoff race.

[kingfish50]

the identity last season was of a team that gave 100% effort on every play and played with pride and determination but offensivley was hamperd by saunders not opening up the playbook for Campbell. Saunders openly argued for Collins to be the starter even when brunell was struggling the season before. Collins came in and Saunders opend the whole offense up and we sall what we expected to see when saunders first got here.

I didnt expect anything but 8-8 at best from this team this season. Teams with new coaches usually struggle at first then as they become familiar with the new ways and get better as the season goes along. The Redskins have gotten worse in almost every game after the bye week.

Blache didnt even want Jason Taylor on this team and in case everyone forgot was quoted as saying so in the washington post around the draft but guess what hes here anyway. this team is in dire straights right now fellas and is in danger of pissing away everything that was built in the past 4 seasons.

i dont know everything and wont claim 2 but this looks familiar to me. Before Gibbs got here we were know around the league as a team that you punch in the mouth and they fold. Sean Taylor, Joe Gibbs, and Williams helped change that attitude and i fear we are slipping back to that mentality as each week passes. Players are already making plans for vacations after the last regular season game of the year and that is not a team that is determined to change the season.

You wont see this in the paper or hear it on comcast because this team is still bonded to eachother after the tragedy last season but some players do question if Campbell has the it factor neccassary to put a team on his shoulders when the rest of the team is struggling.

Look at Landry intercepting a pass thats great and finally he makes a play but your team is getting killed and you get up and taught and celebrate????

this game isnt about individual accolades and accomplishments and there playing as individuals not a team.

This is absolutely depressing and looks like it's already out of hand. You can't be a Head Coach and the Players buddy at the same time. You have to remember that these are a bunch of rich, spoiled kids who have been coddled from High School thrum College. They need a stern, father like figure, whether they like it or not and instill discipline, organization and pride, as Joe Gibbs did in his 2nd stint here.

As far as the players having no faith in JC, that was evidenced last year when TC stepped in and all of the sudden the o-line was pass protecting and the receivers were catching passes. You don't have to read it in the papers or hear it on the news. The play on the field says it all and they did and are making a statement about this mess right now.

I hope Coach Zorn can get a handle on this before it's too late. If not, it's the pre-Gibbs II era all over again and I put the blame at the top where it should be. On Little Danny and his sidekick, Vinnie.

[sly]

(double post)

[kingfish50]

LL, as much as I agree with you, or at least see the logic in your post, I don't see GW coming back here. I don't dispute that he WOULD. I just believe that neither the Dan nor Vinny would admit what to them would be a colossal blunder by canning their guy after one year and bringing back the man who was right in front of their faces.

No way on this earth they could suffer that big a blow to their respective egos.

And as long as these two have anything to do with this team, it'll remain the circus that it has once again become.

We were once a proud and repected organization. Now we are nothing but chicken feed to the rest of the NFL. Shame on you Dan Snyder, shame on you..:doh:

[BigRedskinDaddy]

And as long as these two have anything to do with this team, it'll remain the circus that it has once again become.

We were once a proud and repected organization. Now we are nothing but chicken feed to the rest of the NFL. Shame on you Dan Snyder, shame on you..:doh:

You may be right, but I hope not. I hope they are turning a corner and starting to figure it out, because while Vinny may not be here for a while, the Dan certainly is going to be.

[kingfish50]

You may be right, but I hope not. I hope they are turning a corner and starting to figure it out, because while Vinny may not be here for a while, the Dan certainly is going to be.

I hope I'm wrong too. Hell, I'm 52 (soon to be 53) years old and Little Danny is how young? He could own the Redskins for another 25 plus years and I'll probably be dead and gone by then but I'll still have to live through this circus, lol.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

I don't want GW back here, he's part of the reason we're in this mess.

Think back to the drafts of '04-'07. Williams had the marquee picks of the drafts. What was his mantra? Build from the OUTSIDE, IN. Ass backwards. Know what everybody ****es about our defense? No pass rush from the D-line. Guess what brainiacs, we've always had all-universe secondaries, and makeshift front 7's. I was a teenager the last time we invested a 1st round pick on the D-line.

Mirror image of the offense. O-line can't pass protect for ****. Over the years this team has given away the middle round and upper-middle round picks that should constitute your depth and future upside prospects, on the lines and elsewhere. Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis. Great. How about a lineman once in a while?

Sean Taylor. What can you say, when a once-in-a-generation level of player gets taken from the world well before his time, how do you replace that? You can't. This team will feel the effects of that loss for a generation, Sean was that special.

We don't play with killer instinct, a sense of urgency, blah blah blah. There's no HEART out there. It's embarassing. Seems like one confusing moment after another, a couple false starts, a smidge of holding and then the headset goes out. And that crap was happening under Gibbs, Williams, Zorn, etc.

This team doesn't need a complete, total reset. But it does need one of those blockbuster trades to stockpile a set of draft picks, to set up our trenches on both sides of the ball for the next decade.

Unfortunately, you can't draft heart.

[GoSkins0721]

I don't want GW back here, he's part of the reason we're in this mess.

Think back to the drafts of '04-'07. Williams had the marquee picks of the drafts. What was his mantra? Build from the OUTSIDE, IN. Ass backwards. Know what everybody ****es about our defense? No pass rush from the D-line. Guess what brainiacs, we've always had all-universe secondaries, and makeshift front 7's. I was a teenager the last time we invested a 1st round pick on the D-line.

Mirror image of the offense. O-line can't pass protect for ****. Over the years this team has given away the middle round and upper-middle round picks that should constitute your depth and future upside prospects, on the lines and elsewhere. Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis. Great. How about a lineman once in a while?

Sean Taylor. What can you say, when a once-in-a-generation level of player gets taken from the world well before his time, how do you replace that? You can't. This team will feel the effects of that loss for a generation, Sean was that special.

We don't play with killer instinct, a sense of urgency, blah blah blah. There's no HEART out there. It's embarassing. Seems like one confusing moment after another, a couple false starts, a smidge of holding and then the headset goes out. And that crap was happening under Gibbs, Williams, Zorn, etc.

This team doesn't need a complete, total reset. But it does need one of those blockbuster trades to stockpile a set of draft picks, to set up our trenches on both sides of the ball for the next decade.

Unfortunately, you can't draft heart.

This team, as we have seen for YEARS, lacks the people at the core positions. That is, just like baseball, up the the middle. QB, C, DT's, MLB.

Look at all of the quality teams and you see quality players in the middle. People can talk all they want about C.Griffin, but once again he is a highly, highly paid BUST. ZERO Pro Bowls. ZERO for what he's being paid. ZERO performance from Rabach, Thomas & Kendall. Jansen hit the wall 2 maybe 3 years ago and should have been replaced at that time.

The discussions about our DL & OL have been beat to death. The fact remains:

1. Monty & Gholston are stop-gap players.

2. Carter is an undersized speed rusher that teams exploit by running straight at him.

3. Taylor - see #2 above

4. M. Washington is done. No one on the team to replace him. Which is yet another example of wasted money. ZERO Pro Bowls. And don't say "he deserved it in 20xx." No he didn't .

4. JJ talks about 'locker room' dissent. WTF are the players doing to correct it? I am so effing sick of hearing these f'ers making millions of dolllars saying "I can't get motivated. The coach doesn't like me. He won't call my number. He's not as smart as me." So WTF are the players doing to correct it? Have the met with Zorn? Blache? Stump? Or are they just cashing checks? Eff all of them. I'm so sick of these guys and their bs to "be motivated" to play. How about you get motivated to play because THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE FREAKING PAID TO DO!!! Go stand in the bread line if you don't like it....

[Always Remember 21]

First off thank you to LavarLeap for the information. Ever since Zorn was hired as HC I have always looked at him as an outsider. I was an advocate for Williams and believe it or not Saunders. Going to the game I noticed a huge change in scheme when Collins became the starter. It was a huge change in what we were seeing from the offense when Campbell was in there. I am a Redskin fan and root for whoever is taking snaps for the burgundy and gold and have no ill will towards Campbell. What LL is saying all makes sense man, it makes scary sense.

Zorn has lost this team. I thought it was odd when he was speaking about Sean like he was here and went throught what WE went through. As a fan this was odd but can you imagine if you were a teammate and heard this? Not only that, but he benches the heart and soul of the offense just to basically make a point. Before reading this today, and viewing that sideline last night from my seats I had a bad feeling that the team had given up on their coach. Now it is confirmed and in all reality we as a fanbase lose.

We are in critical condition as a team now. Isn't it ironic that the only person that can save us is the man that is responsible? Until Danny can find a new raquetball partner and bring in a GM we all pay. The real shame is that we could have had something special with the guys that we have here now. I fear that the window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller if has not closed.

LL, Is this rift between Portis and Zorn as bad as I think it is? From where I was sitting last night (very close to the Skins sideline), it didn't look good.

I agree with this 100%. Very interesting thread. Thanks LavarLeap

One thing that I always respected about Gibbs so much was that he didn't call players out in the media. He could be very hard behind the scenes but he was respectful in public. That is the way it should be. Gibbs also took more than his share of the blame. Zorn almost seems to be the opposite. He calls players out in public and does not share the blame.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Zorn is getting the most out these players, and that's what's scary. 2005 was arguably Gibbs II's best year here. That was his second year back. Let's see how much Zorn gets out of these guys next year. How much you wanna bet it's more than what Gibbs II got out of them? I feel like Zorn is going to wake some of these guys up, get rid of the guys who can't get it done anymore, and actually BUILD a team...that is if Snyder lets him. :2cents:

[WHALEN]

I don't want GW back here, he's part of the reason we're in this mess.

Think back to the drafts of '04-'07. Williams had the marquee picks of the drafts. What was his mantra? Build from the OUTSIDE, IN. Ass backwards. Know what everybody ****es about our defense? No pass rush from the D-line. Guess what brainiacs, we've always had all-universe secondaries, and makeshift front 7's. I was a teenager the last time we invested a 1st round pick on the D-line.

Mirror image of the offense. O-line can't pass protect for ****. Over the years this team has given away the middle round and upper-middle round picks that should constitute your depth and future upside prospects, on the lines and elsewhere. Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis. Great. How about a lineman once in a while?

Sean Taylor. What can you say, when a once-in-a-generation level of player gets taken from the world well before his time, how do you replace that? You can't. This team will feel the effects of that loss for a generation, Sean was that special.

We don't play with killer instinct, a sense of urgency, blah blah blah. There's no HEART out there. It's embarassing. Seems like one confusing moment after another, a couple false starts, a smidge of holding and then the headset goes out. And that crap was happening under Gibbs, Williams, Zorn, etc.

This team doesn't need a complete, total reset. But it does need one of those blockbuster trades to stockpile a set of draft picks, to set up our trenches on both sides of the ball for the next decade.

Unfortunately, you can't draft heart.

I agree we could have Vince Lombardi coaching this team along with Joe Montana at QB both in their prime and we would still fail. Our lines are horrid not Zorn or Campbell.