Your religion is nothing more than luck and geography

[georgiaredskin]

Yes. Luckily (must not be by the Grace of God), Alabama saved me.

Just as architecture makes you fat. :laugh:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1981769,00.html

I grew up in Maryland in a Christian family, but we did not go to church (not for the lack of trying to find a good one). I never knew what it meant to be "saved" until 1992 when I was a freshman at Auburn University. I realized I was a sinner who would never be perfect, that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and through His blood I was forgiven-I was saved--that is when I accepted Jesus as my savior. Before that I was lost, alone, and afraid, just entering the "real" world. My twenties were tumultuous after this decision-wrought with terrible life choices and heartache (abuse of alcohol, short marriage at an early age to an abusive older man and subsequent divorce, the death of my father), and my thirties have not been ecstatic so far with the death of my mother and my brother, but the difference is clear. The only reason I have survived this life with a joyful spirit and a healthy outlook, with now 8 years of sobriety, is because of my faith in Jesus.

It was not Alabama, my friend. It was the Holy Spirit that ministered to me on so many different occasions, in so many different places, at so many different times, through so many different people-but that one sunny day in Auburn, Alabama, I opened my heart to receive it.

[techboy]

Of course, the other problem with the OP is that it commits the fallacy of "begging the question", assuming that God does not exist.

What I mean by that is that it assumes that our placement in a particular area is luck, whereas if we allow for the possibility that God exists, we have to also allow for the possibility that He might well have placed the people that would choose Him in places and times where they could (China today, Palestine in AD 35, etc), and those who wouldn't anyway in the others. The only way it has to be luck is to assume in advance that God doesn't exist anyway.

[joeknows]

Of course, the other problem with the OP is that it commits the fallacy of "begging the question", assuming that God does not exist.

What I mean by that is that it assumes that our placement in a particular area is luck, whereas if we allow for the possibility that God exists, we have to also allow for the possibility that He might well have placed the people that would choose Him in places and times where they could (China today, Palestine in AD 35, etc), and those who wouldn't anyway in the others. The only way it has to be luck is to assume in advance that God doesn't exist anyway.

interesting thought...

[joeknows]

i for one agree with the OP for the most part .... as i am an example.... some people use their "free will" to learn others viewpoints in all things including religion

[NavyDave]

Which would be horribly cruel if true. Why create me knowing I'm going to hell? Just do me a favor and leave me unmade in the first place.

Thats sounds similar to what the ungrateful, spoiled and shallow Generation Ipod types said on a MTV2 show a couple of weeks ago along with "I didn't asked to be born."

Why do you think you are destined for the other place?

[Coach Williams]

Which would be horribly cruel if true. Why create me knowing I'm going to hell? Just do me a favor and leave me unmade in the first place.

To give you the chance you deserve......God can't say he didn't give you one....

If you disobey and openly deny him, you'll reap what you sow. ( Which is nothing )

[joeknows]

i didnt ask to be born.......... i chose to be....

[Springfield]

Of course, the other problem with the OP is that it commits the fallacy of "begging the question", assuming that God does not exist.

What I mean by that is that it assumes that our placement in a particular area is luck, whereas if we allow for the possibility that God exists, we have to also allow for the possibility that He might well have placed the people that would choose Him in places and times where they could (China today, Palestine in AD 35, etc), and those who wouldn't anyway in the others. The only way it has to be luck is to assume in advance that God doesn't exist anyway.

I don't get your argument. If I "beg the question" that God does exist why would he only place Christians in areas where they could be born into that area? Why wouldn't he allow the spread Christianity (oh wait, the people are trying to do that anyhow). So what you're saying is he creates people knowing that 75% won't ever believe in him anyhow? He encourages the vast majority of the population to worship other idols, to completely despise him and everything he stands for? I just don't get it, not logical to me sir.

Must be the whole Christian suffering thing.

[NavyDave]

So being born in Berwick, PA in 1976 made me agnostic? Damn, I'm glad/lucky my parents had sex 9 months earlier in Cunningham, PA.

Yeah, but imagine if you were born in Pakistan. Being an agnostic there could have had you face a Stone cold reality.

Stone...... stoning

[NavyDave]

who are you talking to...you mean to tell me, you don't want to be escorted to the promised land by this

btw those are Valkyries...what did you catch the ghey?

I wouldn't be able to go there. Vikings and Moors weren't blood bruthas

[ntotoro]

Of course there are. You are nitpicking and missing the point.

What are the odds you being the same religion if you were born in India?

Still depends on the part of the country.

I am Eastern Orthodox and the head of my Church is in Syria. Whoda' thunk.

[NavyDave]

You see most things the other way around. And your views are a complete joke. BTW, you are no Christian. You suck the blood of the ignorant who share your racist, seal clubbing views. Z-guy and tech sadly seem to be the only believers who have their head on their shoulders. And thank god for them.

The post was a joke not to be taken seriously. Well except for couch burning part

BTW, nice hit and run, making fun of priets and lumping them iwith NAMBLA.

Wasn't making fun of priests pointed out facts and yes a couple were found to have Nambla material. Not all priest are predators and the ones I met were making a difference in places the majority of the public would never venture in.

[Corcaigh]

To give you the chance you deserve......God can't say he didn't give you one....

He picks you and your kind as his messenger and yet expects us to take him seriously :laugh:

[WVUforREDSKINS]

The post was a joke not to be taken seriously. Well except for couch burning part

BTW, nice hit and run, making fun of priets and lumping them iwith NAMBLA.

Wasn't making fun of priests pointed out facts and yes a couple were found to have Nambla material. Not all priest are predators and the ones I met were making a difference in places the majority of the public would never venture in.

Then I apoligize Navy.

for the record, I am not from WV. Oh yea, but I have set couches ablaze.

[joeknows]

He picks you and your kind as his messenger and yet expects us to take him seriously :laugh:

if you would let anyone influence how seriously you take your faith...... you my friend might need some meditation or prayer

[Corcaigh]

if you would let anyone influence how seriously you take your faith...... you my friend might need some meditation or prayer

:laugh:

Don't get me started on your posts earlier today on physics and conciousness.

[techboy]

I don't get your argument. If I "beg the question" that God does exist why would he only place Christians in areas where they could be born into that area? Why wouldn't he allow the spread Christianity (oh wait, the people are trying to do that anyhow). So what you're saying is he creates people knowing that 75% won't ever believe in him anyhow? He encourages the vast majority of the population to worship other idols, to completely despise him and everything he stands for? I just don't get it, not logical to me sir.

Here's the basic argument:

1. God created humans with the desire that they freely choose Him.

2. God, using something called Middle Knowledge, knows that everyone will not freely choose Him (and even more, He knows who will or won't). This is logical, because if He made everyone choose him, that really wouldn't be free at all.

3. God uses that "Middle Knowledge" and His own omnipotence to place those that would freely choose Him anyway in a place and time to do so, while those that would not freely choose Him end up elsewhere (or even in places where they could, but don't).

This use of Middle Knowledge strikes some as antithetical to the idea of free will (the objection typically is that if God knows what we will do in advance and puts us in position to do it, it's not really "free" will), but it really isn't. By way of analogy, if my wife offers me a choice between a plate of chocolate chip cookies or a plate of brussel sprouts, she might know in advance that I will take the cookies, but it's still my free choice.

In any case, it's not really something that I can prove (and I'm not sure I even believe it), but it's a viable alternative to the "luck" hypothesis, which means that the proponent of the "luck theory" has to prove it, or else he is begging the question by assuming the intended conclusion (God doesn't exist or else why would religion be a matter of luck) in the premise, since assuming that luck is true also implies that God does not exist.

[joeknows]

:laugh:

Don't get me started on your posts earlier today on physics and conciousness.

feel free ......

[The Sisko]

And for the high number of people who DO succumb to whatever religious surroundings they have, it actually proves how much we NEED God, because it proves how truly weak and frail the human mind is, to allow itself to be conformed so easily to it's geography. So, for someone to go against the grain, and become a Christian, in say, Iran, it's nothing short of supernatural, to defy the odds, and really proves there is a God

Wow, that's a bit holier than thou of you...."succumbing" to whatever religious surroundings. Would you then agree that it's nothing short of supernatural and a proof of God's existence that someone in Iran decided to convert to Buddhism or Scientology for example?

So, you expect me to believe that God made everyone different, racially, culturally, linguistically etc. and at the same time he'd only send one revelation of his greatness (i.e. one religious "way" to the truth) to save all these folks with different cultures, existing at different epochs etc.? In spite of the fact that this was approximately 2000 years before there was any real chance that everyone could get the message at about the same time? Were I an omniscient being who wanted to get the word out about my greatness, I'd send revelations/messengers tailored to the recipient to every corner of the globe at the dawn of human history and periodically thereafter. Then, I'd repeat the drill again in the internet age-just to be on the safe side you know. But then, I'd be a play it safe kinda God I guess.

bump for religious day.

BTW, who was that guy who said that hell is getting raped by satan without any grease? Is he not on here much?

So just as I suspected, Hell really is being a Respiratory Therapist after all.

When referring to Jesus Christ, there are ONLY 2 possible TRUTHS...

Either he was the biggest liar of ALL TIME...a complete fraud...

OR

He IS who he said he was...the Son of God.

There ABSOLUTELY is NO MIDDLE GROUND

No, there is absolutely no middle ground to the stupidity of this statement. It is also quite possible that Jesus was simply a great historical religious leader who's followers "embelished" his words and deeds and/or that over time his original teachings were altered. Whether you believe that to be the case is immaterial, it's certainly plausible and possible. Therefore, as is always the case with you absolutists, religious or atheist, the "no middle ground" theory just doesn't hold water.

Of course, the other problem with the OP is that it commits the fallacy of "begging the question", assuming that God does not exist.

What I mean by that is that it assumes that our placement in a particular area is luck, whereas if we allow for the possibility that God exists, we have to also allow for the possibility that He might well have placed the people that would choose Him in places and times where they could (China today, Palestine in AD 35, etc), and those who wouldn't anyway in the others. The only way it has to be luck is to assume in advance that God doesn't exist anyway.

I know you said you're skeptical about this theory and the "Middle knowlege" thing but I'd beg to differ with you on this Techboy. Somehow, it just doesn't jibe with the "merciful God" concept. That is, even if he knew what your choice would be, is it fair or merciful of God to not even give you the chance at making the "right" choice? The Middle knowlege theory is just over thinking it if you ask me when there's a much simpler solution that doesn't conflict with a basic tenet of belief in a God, i.e. his mercy.

I've thought a lot about the OP's question as well as the "What happens to the multitudes of people who never had any chance to know God's word" thing a lot and if you subscribe to the "merciful God" belief IMHO, the only real option would be for God to simply give them a mulligan-provided they were good, decent people. Of course, that conflicts with the "only way to heaven is through Jesus" belief so maybe it's more problematic than I thought.

Even so, I don't know that I'd want to believe in a God that would set things up in such a way. With all due respect, the way you describe it, it sounds much more like a three year old playing with his army men than an omniscient being orchestrating the intricacies of the universe.

[LegionOfDoom]

Unfortunately, your argument fails to hold water historically. It might make sense starting around the 4th Century, when Constantine wedded Church and State..

That is why I said for the last 2000 years not the first 400 years.

For the first 300 years or so, however, Christianity was illegal in the Roman Empire. The only thing being a Christian got you was ridicule, persecution, torture, misery, and possibly death, either by execution or lynch mob. Look at what Josephus records as the fate of James, brother of Jesus and leader of the early Church in Jerusalem.

Alright....

Money and power just didn't come into play. In fact, it was just the opposite.

I don't believe that Money[riches] and Power didn't come into play. It is always fact through all societies.

And, since the exclusivistic message of Jesus as presented by Christianity (and found in the texts of the New Testament) dates back to the First century, not the fourth, the conclusion is inescapble that this was not a later addition by powerhungry rulers.

My issue comes from the fact that we have a King James version of the Bible. One King wanted the Bible in a language he could understand. The translation and true meanings of alot of passages just couldn't be done correctly. Hence the flaw and King James stamp. I think the KJV is the most widely distributed Bible of all.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

When I was around 7 I realized the tooth fairy was fake. 8 yrs, santa and the rest of the jesus things we tell kids.

18 yrs. I began to think God was not real.

It is up to the believers to prove he exsists CW, science is showing more and more every day about The Bible being absolutely not true. The Church either becomes more radical and gets stupid people to join (evangelicals) or adapts to agree with some science like evolution (Catholic Church)

They change what they say every year it seems.

Life this life to the fullest. Love yourself and love others. Its the only one you have.

[Koolblue13]

Life this life to the fullest. Love yourself and love others. Its the only one you have.

That's kind of how I see it. I try and be a true, honest person and live a good life and at the end I can be judged from that.

[Zguy28]

When I was around 7 I realized the tooth fairy was fake. 8 yrs, santa and the rest of the jesus things we tell kids.

18 yrs. I began to think God was not real.

That's a tough thing to go through. I'm truly sorry that you lost your belief in God's existence.

It is up to the believers to prove he exsists CW, science is showing more and more every day about The Bible being absolutely not true.

I disagree. Every day there is more archaelogical evidence that sheds light on the accuracy of biblical passages.

The Church either becomes more radical and gets stupid people to join (evangelicals) or adapts to agree with some science like evolution (Catholic Church)

That has always been the case.

And evangelical is a broad term. Not all are fundamentalists (belligerent).

They change what they say every year it seems.

I don't think you don't pay very close attention.

[Zguy28]

That's kind of how I see it. I try and be a true, honest person and live a good life and at the end I can be judged from that.

That's good that you try to live like that.

Ask yourself though, if everybody I know could view every aspect of my life including my thoughts and actions, would they share that opinion?

That's a question we all should ask ourselves. :2cents:

[Koolblue13]

That's good that you try to live like that.

Ask yourself though, if everybody I know could view every aspect of my life including my thoughts and actions, would they share that opinion?

That's a question we all should ask ourselves. :2cents:

I don't know.

I've done a lot of things that will land me on the hot side and have learned from my actions and life in general.

I know there are people who will consider me hell bound for the rest of my life, but there is nothing I can do about that.

Is there a difference in me realizing I am making poor decisions and hurting others and changing because it's the correct thing to do and I am a better person than that and if I did it because I found God and did it for his name instead of the name of humanity?