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Art

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I appreciate your perspective because of what you do. My worry is this wasn't a gut feel. It was calculated and thought through ahead of time, which Gibbs said himself. He'd decided in that situation that's how we play based on past failures. All of the factors you mention are excellent points. If he was given data that led him to make that on the field call, I probably would have thought differently on this.

Had he told me Portis just came off with sore ribs. Samuels was winded. Heyer had just given up a quick pressure. Whatever game factor he had would have been fine. Here, though, he answered that this is how we play now because we lost past chances. To me, that's feeding a negative culture that can only be overcome by doing something else.

To me, belief is the most important thing a team has. If it believes it can win, it can. If it believes it can't run another play without spiking itself, well, that's what it'll be too. It is the calculation and calm reasoning behind that most disturbing for me.

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I see your point.

What I would say is that if he continues down this path you have laid out, then I would agree with you. He would of lost his edge then. I feel in that case, he would be the first to say he needs to hang it up. In much the same way he did the first time.

However, at this point, I would say he made a decision that the factors seemed to back him up. Of course, a win does that.

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Jason, I respect a lot of what you say on this board, but, that you and Cali (same for you Cali) don't immediately know how strange that call was rings as a lie or simply living in a hole.

We won 16-13. We were LIKELY, once that drive developed, to win 16-13. Not all 16-13 scores are the same. One feels like your coach is scared to death of your team. The other feels like he isn't. Bottom line is, Gibbs hands that ball off twice more and everyone feels like something pretty neat just happened. The way it happened made you feel like we were stealing.

You are right, I don't understand that feeling. To feel like we are stealing a game would be like the Dallas game, where we probably didn't deserve to win it, but we did anyways. That wasn't the case here. The win feels good with the current result and I'd probably feel the same if we had run a couple more times.

What would have been "neat" is if ARE scores on that hail mary.

I understand what you want, but this team isn't at that point yet. I honestly think that Gibbs saw that his offensive team was shaky most of the day, that the officials had made some bad calls, and just wanted the points. Gibbs knows how important this win was, and he didn't want to screw around.

And I wouldn't call putting your 2nd year kicker up for a 40 yarder and his first game winner a "playing scared" call. That takes some guts as well.

Jason

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Mr Mills.

It is very easy to criticize one out of 64 plays to justify the need for a couple of dive plays.

What you have failed to elaborate is the balancing of the risk management involved.

From Gibbs perspective the potential errors far outweigh the need for a few dive plays/ yards simply bcos

- history from Chargers game [one "holding" call from having to attempt a 50 yard FG.]

- the 39 FG distance is quite irrelevant having already kicked a 44yarder

- the chances of Suisham missing would be nerves, getting a few yards closer does not help calm the nerves. Nerves, on the other hand, can cause missed PAT's.!!!

- tho the Skins had no problems running during OT, they are still up against a legit, albeit a tired D who will only stacked the line n try to strip the ball.

- risk of further injuries [hot n humid conditions] since they hv already lost Jansen.

On the contrary it serves :

-as an endorsement for DSmith, to justify belief in keeping Suisham very early on in training camp [ with no competition.]

- to find out if Suisham can handle these type of situation [in Sept, NOT in December.]

The O line n Portis/Betts don't need their egos massaged, they just wanna win.

Gibbs/Saunders have already demonstrated confidence in them with their OT play calling.

Net, even if Suisham misses, it is still a tie game with the Dolphins pinned back.

Instead the Skins found out a lot more than their running game and their conditioning. They might also have solved the revolving doors of their kicking game without the expense of a early season loss.

This can only help in overall game/field position management esp. in games where a FG or less will decide outcomes.

I am sure you will not disagree that there's nothing more demoralizing than having an unreliable kicking game.

:cheers:

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I haven't heard any comments from the players on this issue.

Any quotes or reports on what they're thinking?

I was in the player parking lot.

I talked about it with several.

Not in a reporter with a mic in your face way.....but in the casual conversations of after a game.

Consistantly, they talked of how hot it was and how glad they were to be out get off the field.

I just didnt see of have a gut feeling of what Art is stating.

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Had he told me Portis just came off with sore ribs. Samuels was winded. Heyer had just given up a quick pressure.

If Coach had come out and said this you would have been as surprised as me.

Had Coach come out and put his reasoning on himself, even if it makes him look bad, you would be seeing what you expect from him in a presser.

Whether his given reasoning was the whole truth with nothing left out is up for questioning. The fact he wouldn't say something to make his players look bad is not.

I may be completely off the mark but no way is Coach coming out and saying something like 'Stephon Heyer is a rookie and as much as I love the way he is siezing this opportunity I had seen x, y and z which meant I couldn't trust him'.

Coach doesn't like to burn bad players. He came out and gave a presser in support of Stephon Heyer when he was getting flak in preseason. (2nd Edit: I'm not saying Heyer is a bad player, we've seen him do remarkebly well, I'm saying even if a player stinks it up Coach isn't going to throw him under a bus. He is in charge. He is responsible. For the good and the bad)

As I say pure speculation on my part that he saw player(s) on the cusp of making errors but it fits in with his MO so is at least a possibility.

EDIT: Of course he then needs a reason. What better than to give the press the scared old man they think they see? As with any half truth back it up with a bit of fact and there you go, people buy it. Move forward to the next game with out giving away doubts for the opposition to work on.

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Instead the Skins found out a lot more than their running game and their conditioning.

This very well could be a key point that no one here is really paying attention to. On Monday's Redskin Radio, Larry & Bram were joined by Randy Thomas. RT made mention that the Dolphins, in between plays, were taking a knee. Even when getting water, those guys were drained. Not a single Redskin player took a knee while getting water in between plays. The guys from the land of heat & humidity weren't able to deal with the heat here. Our guys were. Seems like the off season strength & conditioning program has paid off just five quarters into the season.

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LMAO @ Art :laugh: See what happens when you don't feed the masses? :laugh:

There is a prevailing viewpoint in this forum.

Whether you get down on 1 knee and propose....... or whether attack her in a dark alley, put a bag over her head and suffocate her with chlorophorm... put her in the trunk of your car and drive off to some unknown farmhouse where you built a secret hideout underneath and plan to keep her as a sex slave for as long as she's alive.

In the end, you got the girl. And that's the only thing that matters. How you did it are just trivial details :laugh:

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This very well could be a key point that no one here is really paying attention to. On Monday's Redskin Radio, Larry & Bram were joined by Randy Thomas. RT made mention that the Dolphins, in between plays, were taking a knee. Even when getting water, those guys were drained. Not a single Redskin player took a knee while getting water in between plays. The guys from the land of heat & humidity weren't able to deal with the heat here. Our guys were. Seems like the off season strength & conditioning program has paid off just five quarters into the season.

The Dolphins have one of the oldest Defenses in the league.

They are in for a rough year, I think. There's not a lot in their cupboard.

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From my seat in the stands, we were all high-fiving each other in OT, thoroughly enjoying the pounding that our running game was giving to the exhausted Dolphins defense. After the last run that gave us first down on the 22, I'm thinking 'Okay, keep running it until we reach 3rd down'. Or, as it appeared likely, we might even get a walk-off TD run. Those around me, myself included, were stunned to see Suisham trot onto the field. Mind you, no one was booing the decision; no one was badmouthing the call; but there were plenty of questions floating in the air. "It's first down, why are we kicking?" "It's 40 yards from here, that's not automatic" "keep pounding the ball, we've got em on the ropes" etc. Lots of people shaking their heads. (Cameron's decision to go for the TD at the end of the 1st half made a different kind of statement to his offense, but had they not scored he would've been roasted)

In the end, it was hot as hell, and I was glad to just get out of the sun with a 'W', after an intense game. But, as Art suggests, something just didn't feel "right" about it.

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My personal feeling on fhis(I'll admit I've only read the first 2 pages and the last page), is simple.

What would going for 2 more runs have proven? You have Portis and Betts(both have had some ball control issues) and an O line already tired and confused from Jansen's injury. You have a Dolphins D that had been giving us fits all day, and you have the home crowd on their feet yelling and screaming with support.

Lets say, there are 3 options to this drive..

1)Run for 2 more times, kick a field goal from 7 yards closer. What does this accomplish? You have Suisham on the sidelines thinking about the field goal for another 2 minutes. You have the POTENTIAL for a facemask/holding penalty on ou Oline who is tired, and are missing the anchor(Jansen) and Portis, the likely carrier, coming off a knee injury in the preseason. Why risk hurting Portis? Why risk a penalty?

2)Run the ball into the endzone somehow. Could be a great block, could be lucky moves, but somehow Portis/Betters gets the ball into the endzone and wins the game. This pumps the crowd up, and possibly the RB who took it in, but in the end, the game is still won, and our 'Skins are still 1-0

3)The way it went down. Gibbs gave the Dolphins D no chance to get "one more chancee" at Campbell/Portis. He just said "Ok, we're in range, Suisham get out there", the kick was up, and it was good. The team jumped around, the post game interviews were happy, etc.

The 4th option ) Blocked fieldgoal or a holding penalty on the O line taking us out of real range and causing a missed FG. Either of those things happen and you're crucifying the coach either way.

He made the right call, we got the W, no lets focus on the Iggles, not the past.

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I understand you Art, when you say it doesn't feel right. But let me ask you this...Doesn't this show extreme confidence in the kicker? I think the team now KNOWS they can count on the kicker, unlike the past. The team also knows the COACH can count on this kicker. Unlike the past.

I think seeing him come out, showed extreme confidence in the kicker and it also said, offense you do not need to CARRY this team, unlike the past.

Had we missed, I also think it shows extreme confidence in the DEFENSE. I guess there are two sides to every story.

All that matters is the ball went through the upfights.

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LMAO @ Art :laugh: See what happens when you don't feed the masses? :laugh:

There is a prevailing viewpoint in this forum.

Whether you get down on 1 knee and propose....... or whether attack her in a dark alley, put a bag over her head and suffocate her with chlorophorm... put her in the trunk of your car and drive off to some unknown farmhouse where you built a secret hideout underneath and plan to keep her as a sex slave for as long as she's alive.

In the end, you got the girl. And that's the only thing that matters. How you did it are just trivial details :laugh:

I think your analogy is amusing and a bit extended, but, there's some nugget within. As for feeding the masses, I'd hoped this would enable a good conversation and I think it has.

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[Art,]

Spoken like a true Giant's fan!!! One of the greatest parts of our Redskins Nation is that unlike some of the other high profile franchises in the league, we were always content with our leader's ability to lead. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask, honestly, "Am I really questioning Joe Gibbs?"

Faith is blind my friend. I think that after 3 championships and approaching 200 wins as the Redskins #1, I think we all owe Poppa Joe our unwaivering support. Be a fan, not critic. It's O.K. though. You are still one of us we still love ya!!!

Hail To The :logo:

Edited to comply with forum rules. ~ihs

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Art,

One thing has come to mind recently, and that is that this reminds me a lot of the issues I had with the way Ramsey was sacked in 2005. Whether it was the right decision or not, the whole way it was handled stuck in my craw. It sounds very similar to the problems you are having with Gibbs right now. On that level, I understand what kind of problem you are having with it.

But, on a pure X's and O's level, it wasn't a bad football decision. The offense got the ball into field goal range, and Gibbs decided to pull the trigger on it, with the confidence that his field goal kicker could do the job. Yes, I can see how that can be emotionally underwhelming, particularly since it seemed like we were taking it to them, but after a long, hard fought game where mistakes were made all over the place on a hot day, I could see wanting to just get it over with.

Jason

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[Art,]

Spoken like a true Giant's fan!!! One of the greatest parts of our Redskins Nation is that unlike some of the other high profile franchises in the league, we were always content with our leader's ability to lead. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask, honestly, "Am I really questioning Joe Gibbs?"

Faith is blind my friend. I think that after 3 championships and approaching 200 wins as the Redskins #1, I think we all owe Poppa Joe our unwaivering support. Be a fan, not critic. It's O.K. though. You are still one of us we still love ya!!!

Hail To The :logo:

Edited to comply with forum rules. ~ihs

I believe this is a bit naive.

A Giant fan would taunt us for our lack of guts, not hope we would stop displaying it. Joe Gibbs questions himself on everything he does, so you need to be careful about considering him infallable versus areas you think he'll adjust. Gibbs is based on adjustments. That's what he is as a coach. The adjustment he made in response to past errors in similar situations, to me, is a negative direction. I suspect it would be to you as well if you consider it the direction we will generally take.

Throughout the last several years, I felt each coach we've had needed to do something differently and better than they were in order for us to achieve a winning mentality and winning team.

Norv had big balls and was pretty gutsy, but, he was a poor coach when it came to adjustments and on both sides of the ball that was the case. When teams adjusted to his game plan, he had a hard time countering that effectively, which is why I was surprised to see the Chargers change so much in the second half of the Bears game.

Nolan's defense, I felt, was too soft to really win.

Marty was rigid, which was good, but, the offense he ran, was so elementary, it would have been impossible to build much off that. He ran a series of stop routes across the field. When asked to fire Jimmy Raye, he balked, went to KC and didn't hire Jimmy Raye, but Cam Cameron and that helped him.

Spurrier, ultimately, needed to believe more strongly in his system and refuse to accept questioning of it for it to work. He was too swayed by the opinion of the NFL experts to the extent he never actually really implemented what he believed in, failing what we did.

For Gibbs, he has had to adjust to the NFL and learn on the fly. He's struggled with some aspects of team dynamics and coaching in his return. He's still getting his land legs. He adjusts wonderfully as you saw this offseason, changing what we were doing, trying to bridge the resentment between the players and his program, and bringing everyone back on the same page.

As a coach, he's always been a worry wart, which always made him so great. He worried so much about the opponent, building them up in his own mind, he was legitmately scared about what they could do. His teams were generally prepared for a greater opponent than they often found. I think some of that worry wart stuff is turning more inward than is healthy. I believe if he's so afraid of his guys making mistakes, they can not help but continue making them.

I think that central premise is one most would accept as a fair assessment on life generally, and football specifically. It may be too quick for me to come to a conclusion that Gibbs is doing that and there are a lot of games for us to show this article was a meaningless concern.

I disagree with you that a Giant fan would care about any of this. They'd just taunt us for our weakness and fear. And they wouldn't be all that wrong.

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I don't understand what the fuss is about. This is hardly a surprise, and it reflects on my biggest beef with Gibbs as a coach. His #1 priority on offense is to avoid the negative play. This is the way it has been since Rocket Screen.

Inexplicably, Gibbs, deep in his own end and with little time remaining in the half, tries this play and it is a historic failure. Since then, any Redskin two-minute drill with him as coach is utterly predictable (provided they aren't behind at the end of a game) - see if you can run the ball for a first down while eating clock and making sure that the other team doesn't get a chance for a big momentum play. It drove me nuts back then and it still drives me nuts.

So, I don't think this is any reflection on how he feels about his team (well, for the most part) - it's just the way he is. He got burned by being aggressive on the biggest stage in sports. It's part of the fabric of his being and part of the territory that comes with him being coach. I remember when he left the first time and I thought that it might be a positive because his conservatism in this regard just drove me batty (and a reason why I thought his teams were never really that great in a 2 minute drill). My feelings were vindicated after that opening 35-16 pounding of the Cowboys. For one week, I was right. Subsequent weeks since then have not turned out so well.

I'd love it if Gibbs would adopt that "balls out" mindset, rather than the "avoid the negative play" that has consumed him since that January day in Tampa in 1984. But it ain't gonna happen while Gibbs is coach, I don't care how confident he is in his team. Goes with the territory. That won't change until the coach changes, and I'm not anxious to replay THAT movie :).

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Art,

One thing has come to mind recently, and that is that this reminds me a lot of the issues I had with the way Ramsey was sacked in 2005. Whether it was the right decision or not, the whole way it was handled stuck in my craw. It sounds very similar to the problems you are having with Gibbs right now. On that level, I understand what kind of problem you are having with it.

But, on a pure X's and O's level, it wasn't a bad football decision. The offense got the ball into field goal range, and Gibbs decided to pull the trigger on it, with the confidence that his field goal kicker could do the job. Yes, I can see how that can be emotionally underwhelming, particularly since it seemed like we were taking it to them, but after a long, hard fought game where mistakes were made all over the place on a hot day, I could see wanting to just get it over with.

Jason

Jason,

The bottom line is you continue to place PRESENT considerations on something Gibbs didn't do the same for. You continue to say it was hot and it was good to get off the field. Gibbs didn't say that was a factor. He was very clear what the factor was. It wasn't what was going on during the game on the field. It WAS what happened in the past.

He said it. It wasn't ambiguous. I don't disagree with you if Gibbs assessed the current situation as one requiring a field goal and articulated those considerations as well as he did the actual ones, I'd have probably felt differently. In that case that didn't actually exist, he'd at least have been making decisions on the present, not past and that's good.

What I'm asking you to consider is not what YOU thought of the play, but, what Gibbs told you HE did. Just what HE said. Do ONLY that, removing ANY of your own thoughts, and tell me you don't have at least a LITTLE concern that he'd allow himself to set direction for THIS team because of his 2004 team's failures.

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What I'm asking you to consider is not what YOU thought of the play, but, what Gibbs told you HE did. Just what HE said. Do ONLY that, removing ANY of your own thoughts, and tell me you don't have at least a LITTLE concern that he'd allow himself to set direction for THIS team because of his 2004 team's failures.

Maybe I need to spell it out better for you. This is a game where we had some questionable calls go against us, where his QB threw two interceptions with no TDs. Late in the game, the team was getting sloppy with penalties. We also had two fumbles which we were fortunate not to lose.

Don't you think with all of that happening in the game, that his line of thought was logical?

Jason

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Maybe I need to spell it out better for you. This is a game where we had some questionable calls go against us, where his QB threw two interceptions with no TDs. Late in the game, the team was getting sloppy with penalties. We also had two fumbles which we were fortunate not to lose.

Don't you think with all of that happening in the game, that his line of thought was logical?

Jason

And, again, I ask you not to evaluate the factors YOU felt where part of the decision, but the factors Gibbs told you were HIS. Why is that hard? If a word within your consideration was not uttered by the coach, remove it, and think about what HE said, not what YOU think.

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I don't understand what the fuss is about. This is hardly a surprise, and it reflects on my biggest beef with Gibbs as a coach. His #1 priority on offense is to avoid the negative play. This is the way it has been since Rocket Screen.

Inexplicably, Gibbs, deep in his own end and with little time remaining in the half, tries this play and it is a historic failure. Since then, any Redskin two-minute drill with him as coach is utterly predictable (provided they aren't behind at the end of a game) - see if you can run the ball for a first down while eating clock and making sure that the other team doesn't get a chance for a big momentum play. It drove me nuts back then and it still drives me nuts.

This might be the best post on this board in the last month...aside from everything I've written.

Very interesting.

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Very nicely done, Art. I agree with your conclusion.

I'm not as sure that it was a direct reflection on the players as much as it seemed like a coach playing "not to lose" rather than "playing to win". If you can't trust your players to "go out there and win it" while we were opening up huge holes in the running game, there is a little bit of an attitude problem.

Frankly, Gibbs made a number of mental errors during that game, including clock management at the end of the 4th quarter. I believe in Gibbs wholeheartedly, but he didn't coach a good game on Sunday.

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I know what Art is saying, and I agree JG has become more concerned with not losing games than winning them. MB is a perfect example of this. But I find Art's conclusions flawed because he is basing his argument more on what JG said than what he did.

JG has an extra lobe in his brain that only deals with cameras and microphones. It is separate from logic, truth and 4 letter words. It does not understand the concepts of hate, evil or vindiction. It cannot utter a bad word about anyone, much less a Redskin.

Let's look at the factors that likely were going through JGs head when he decided to kick.

  • Portis had banged his ribs to the point they had to wrap them
  • Betts has been known to fumble at crucial times in the past
  • Sellers already had a fumble that day
  • There was already a bumbled handoff between JC & CP
  • CP had only been practicing with the team for a week
  • He had a brand new guard with the team only a week
  • He had a rookie at tackle in his 1st game, UDFA no less
  • BL is useless
  • Moss was dropping everything that day
  • Cooley was being smothered
  • His pass D was questionable at best
  • He had a kicker he believed to be so reliable the guy had no camp competition

So he pulled the trigger. And hit his mark. I would have rushed it a couple times, but I don't see the watershed event that Art does. Not this early in the season anyway. Were this to happen later in the season, I would be more in agreement with Art. But I do see where he is coming from.

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Who says Redskins.com is all peaches and cream :).

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=29101

ExtremeSkins Fan View: You First, Coach

By Arthur Mills

ExtremeSkins.com

September 11, 2007

Okay, we won, so I bet you're expecting my happy dance.

Sorry, but, I can't give it to you. Not yet. Not now. I've spent the months after our dismal, largely uncompetitive 5-11 season trying to figure out how to trust a team that seemed to betray themselves and the rest of us a year ago.

I want to believe in them again. I want to believe they care enough about each other to display the type of chemistry needed to be a winner, not only this year, but for years to come.

Before I can do that, I need Coach Joe Gibbs to do it again first.

I'm not talking about what he says. I'm talking about a first down field goal from 39 yards out in overtime. That overtime drive was a classic Riggo drill. It was "brutiful."

Third and 4 from the 31. Gibbs gave this team the identity it started to find in 2005 and wanted back last year. Clinton Portis to the right for 9. There it is. It was a fading memory live. You don't make that call to make the next one.

Field goal. Gibbs giveth. Gibbs taketh away.

At halftime, trailing by four after an unconventional, gutsy call by Dolphins first-year coach Cam Cameron, I wrote we are, as a team, what we've too long been. We are an inconsistent bunch incapable of stringing enough good plays together to really emerge as a team.

You grow frustrated with the halting, hit-and-miss element this team has as defining traits. On both sides of the ball, the only consistent thing about us is our ability to consistently make a mistake that puts the game in jeopardy.

We miss the open receiver. That receiver drops easy first downs. Our corner makes an ill-timed, silly illegal contact. Someone slips. Someone holds. Someone misses a key block. We lose critical yards. We get into field goal position to win games and go backward. Always at the worst possible time.

This team scares the hell out of me. You are conditioned as a fan through years of bad play to expect the worst.

Gibbs doesn't have the luxury of feeling the same way. Or, more appropriately, he can feel exactly that way. He just has to stop showing it.

I'm sitting on my couch, petting my dog and eating chips with a nice Mexican dip. What I think doesn't matter. My lack of trust is meaningless. In the rare case anyone on the team reads my doubts in a message board post, they might even use it to feel disrespected and want to prove me wrong. When I bow my head praying for the worst not to happen, no one can see it.

A team takes on the identity of the coach of the team. Not mine. So, they shouldn't be so similar.

When asked why he'd put his trust in Shaun Suisham rather than Clinton Portis and one of the league's best offensive lines, Gibbs told us the truth. He has seen this team get into that position before and do something so mind numbingly stupid as to cost it an opportunity to win.

He has seen a change in NFL officials of the day different than his previous coaching experience where they involve themselves in the outcome of the game with mysterious calls they've no business making. You can almost empathize with the once-bitten-twice-shy coaching method at play.

Gibbs isn't wrong about what he's seen. He's just wrong to act on it.

Even just two more dive plays before kicking would have finished what that drive started. It would have made the outcome feel different for me, and, I suspect, for at least a few members of the team. That drive was a statement drive. Just two more dive plays for no yards ends that game with the feeling you just took it into your hands and willed yourself to a win. You can build on that.

Instead, by kicking on first down and the reasoning as to why that was done took the swelling physical dominance and turned it into, "Hey, can you believe we haven't screwed it up yet?" You can't build on that.

A football team feeds off the stimulus it receives. It develops an US vs. THEM mentality when they see doubt expressed about them and they believe they are more capable than they are viewed. This team is rightfully doubted. It is brimming with the desire to put the doubters in their places.

That can't happen as long as Gibbs is one of the primary doubters. Gibbs' fear of the mistake merely assures we will always be so tentative and uncertain mistakes of the sort Gibbs would seek to avoid are actually more likely.

Every game Gibbs makes decisions based on the mistakes of the past rather than the team of the present prevents us from getting back to the future.

Deep down, I bet coach knows this too.

best *amn article Arthur Mills has written in a while. It perfectly captures the mindset of a lot of us.

kudos Art!

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