Redskins.com: You first, coach.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The decision didn't win the game, though. The decision was the worst possible one to make from an odds perspective and from a known, historical production standpoint. If Suisham becomes one of the game's elite and our running back is Trung Canidate, I probably wouldn't be talking to you now .

You keep talking about style points and that is absolutely not what I'm talking about. Gibbs not only told his team, but he told the world, he doesn't trust it enough to run a dive play in that situation. That's not style. That's abject fear his guys can't execute even the most simple of plays. He told us that, openly. I don't deny the facts of his statement. He's right.

I just think if he knows that to be the case, to fix it, you actually keep doing it until it goes away.

So the issue is not the call for a FG on 1st down...it's that he was open about why he called it?

[iheartskins]

Not to change the topic Art....

Psst it's iheartskins, not Art.

I know we all look the same to you people.

[Oldfan]

Really, this all comes down to "style points", and I think the offense earned plenty of that with that drive to get into field goal range.

You do understand that 1) if you score a TD, it eliminates the risk of a FG and 2) the closer you get to the goal line, the success rate is higher for making the FG...these aren't "style points." The decision was a matter of weighing risk and Gibbs chose a kicker who had never kicked a game winner at any level over his offensive team.

[turbodiesel#44]

I'm perfectly fine with many of you not agreeing with the overall premise I've put forward, but, I have to ask, do ANY of you REALLY want your head coach to answer the question about why he didn't try to get the ball a little closer by answering THREE YEARS AGO he tried that and got burned so he has decided no to do it again? Do you really want Gibbs coaching based on ghosts of the past? I doubt it.

I agree JG has gotten much less aggressive in his old age. And he is probably still gun-shy from last years results. We sucked in our self proclaimed SB season. I think the team needs to prove they have a winning credo and the talent to back it up. To me, to JG, to you, and everybody else. And mostly to themselves. He took what he thought was his best shot to win, and it is impossible to deny that it may very well have been. We can build on that win. It's a start. It's foolish to be blindly overconfident.

He did go for it on that one 4th, but perhaps that was just a rehearsed ploy to draw a flag. I dunno, but I liked it.

[Jimbo]

It still all comes down to Gibbs' answer to why he decided to kick on first down. Had he simply looked into the camera and matter-of-factly said, "I had no doubt Shaun would make the kick", I would have felt much better.

Kicking from that far out on first down just felt wrong. Plain and simple. The win didn't feel complete. I wasn't sure why and was too tired to even think about until reading Art's article.

Let's just hope the team read this and rallies around Gibbs this week and can keep it going in Philthy.

[Art]

So the issue is not the call for a FG on 1st down...it's that he was open about why he called it?

Calling it on first down was just silly. The why is just telling. He was open about why he called it. His team obviously would hear about it. There is no mistaking the statement. He stood up in front of everyone and said, "I can't trust these guys not to make a mistake becaue they've lost games by making them in the same situation before."

His team obviously would hear about it.

The point is clear, to me. I don't think a team can achieve very much if their coach is so afraid of past misakes he makes decisions based on them rather than based on sound football concepts. Exactly what do you disagree with in that?

[McD5]

Psst it's iheartskins, not Art.

I know we all look the same to you people.

:laugh: No offense intended my friend. It was the avatar that threw me off.

[Art]

I agree JG has gotten much less aggressive in his old age. And he is probably still gun-shy from last years results. We sucked in our self proclaimed SB season. I think the team needs to prove they have a winning credo and the talent to back it up. To me, to JG, to you, and everybody else. And mostly to themselves. He took what he thought was his best shot to win, and it is impossible to deny that it may very well have been. We can build on that win. It's a start. It's foolish to be blindly overconfident.

He did go for it on that one 4th, but perhaps that was just a rehearsed ploy to draw a flag. I dunno, but I liked it.

That was a pre-planned no-play. He told the refs about it before the game so they'd be prepared and they still screwed it up. And, no, it wouldn't surprise me if those types of officiating mistakes -- and one we saw with Heap in Cincy the next night -- adds to why he was so reluctant to do anything other than kick once he got into field goal range.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

You do understand that 1) if you score a TD, it eliminates the risk of a FG and 2) the closer you get to the goal line, the success rate is higher for making the FG...these aren't "style points." The decision was a matter of weighing risk and Gibbs chose a kicker who had never kicked a game winner at any level over his offensive team.

Don't you know that 1) the more plays you run, the higher the chances of a turnover, an injury, a drive-killing penalty, etc, etc?...and 2) do you know what the success rate is between 39 yard FGs and 29 yard FGs, especially for OUR kicker? It's minuscule.

Also, does ANYONE know why every NFL team's first goal in OT is to get into makable field goal range, and not a TD? You occasionally have a few teams that are in field goal range decide to just go for a TD, and when they make it, it's exciting, shows gonads, etc, etc...when they don't and the ball is almost intercepted, what do they do?...Trot out the field goal kicking team lol. they don't say "well, we still have a few more downs"...they say "Holy ****, we dodged a bullet...let's kick the field goal."

[Art]

It still all comes down to Gibbs' answer to why he decided to kick on first down. Had he simply looked into the camera and matter-of-factly said, "I had no doubt Shaun would make the kick", I would have felt much better.

Kicking from that far out on first down just felt wrong. Plain and simple. The win didn't feel complete. I wasn't sure why and was too tired to even think about until reading Art's article.

Let's just hope the team read this and rallies around Gibbs this week and can keep it going in Philthy.

Ding.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Calling it on first down was just silly. The why is just telling. He was open about why he called it. His team obviously would hear about it. There is no mistaking the statement. He stood up in front of everyone and said, "I can't trust these guys not to make a mistake becaue they've lost games by making them in the same situation before."

His team obviously would hear about it.

The point is clear, to me. I don't think a team can achieve very much if their coach is so afraid of past misakes he makes decisions based on them rather than based on sound football concepts. Exactly what do you disagree with in that?

I'm still baffled how calling a game-winning play is "silly", especially when the guy you're asking to make that play is pretty much 100% accurate from inside that range and has been kicking them 20 yards deeper?...

There's nothing whatsoever in the NFL coaches handbook that says you must use up all of your downs before winning the game lol...THAT, to me, would be silly.

[Oldfan]

Don't you know that 1) the more plays you run, the higher the chances of a turnover, an injury, a drive-killing penalty, etc, etc?...and 2) do you know what the success rate is between 39 yard FGs and 29 yard FGs, especially for OUR kicker? It's minuscule.

Also, does ANYONE know why every NFL team's first goal in OT is to get into makable field goal range, and not a TD? You occasionally have a few teams that are in field goal range decide to just go for a TD, and when they make it, it's exciting, shows gonads, etc, etc...when they don't and the ball is almost intercepted, what do they do?...Trot out the field goal kicking team lol. they don't say "well, we still have a few more downs"...they say "Holy ****, we dodged a bullet...let's kick the field goal."

As I said, it's a matter of weighing risks. If you don't trust your offense, kick from 39 yards.

I would not have done it in that game. We were running well at that point.

[TheLongshot]

The decision didn't win the game, though. The decision was the worst possible one to make from an odds perspective and from a known, historical production standpoint. If Suisham becomes one of the game's elite and our running back is Trung Canidate, I probably wouldn't be talking to you now .

It sounds like you don't trust Suisham because he doesn't have that much of a track record, but a coach should have a good idea of what his kicker is capable of. If he thinks his guy is pretty close to automatic 40 yards away, then the odds are pretty good. It isn't the "worst possible one to make".

You keep talking about style points and that is absolutely not what I'm talking about. Gibbs not only told his team, but he told the world, he doesn't trust it enough to run a dive play in that situation. That's not style. That's abject fear his guys can't execute even the most simple of plays. He told us that, openly. I don't deny the facts of his statement. He's right.

I just think if he knows that to be the case, to fix it, you actually keep doing it until it goes away.

That isn't what he said at all. What he said was that any number of things, that could be out of his players control, could happen. He certainly felt that his team could get more yards, but he knows that the defense could make a play, or that the officials could call a penalty that could knock you out of field goal range. He had a lot of confidence in Suisham, who has never missed inside of 40 yards.

I mean, what would the team have gained by continuing? It would have probably ended in a field goal anyways. Gibbs certainly wasn't going to keep pounding it in there to get a TD, when one wasn't needed.

Jason

[thinker]

The Redskins have not been a good team for a long time. The Skins are in a spot where, as Wilbon says, first you may have to win, and then you become good. Gibbs was taking a chance either way. You are obviously right that conventional wisdom would say run a few more low risk plays before kicking, maybe two low risk runs and kick on third down. But OH MAN, if rookie Heyor holds and we end up punting when we were already in field goal range? OUCH. Kicker misses - ouch. Penalty, turnover, loss, I think the team is fragile enough that it would be tough to recover from.

Setting aside what statement is made, and I agree, the statement was Gibbs was a bit scared, but he thought this was the best chance to win. Art, as you often point out, these guys do this for a living and Gibbs is in the HOF, if he thinks this is the best chance to win, who are you to question it? Statements are better left for after you've wrapped up home field advantage or have the game in hand or after the season is lost and you're trying to build for next year. With the iffiness of the team's situation now, particularly on offense, I believe it wasn't the best message to send but getting the W was more important. It makes more sense when you consider that prior to this game Campbell had never handed off to Portis in a game, Heyor who had never taken a live snap at RT was playing, and Campbell was also having a very mixed game.

Let them get their feet under them, slowly build some confidence, get Campbell playing more comfortably, get the oline settled, and make a statement against the Cardinals or Detroit or someone when we can kick the **** out of them.

[Oldfan]

I'm still baffled how calling a game-winning play is "silly", especially when the guy you're asking to make that play is pretty much 100% accurate from inside that range and has been kicking them 20 yards deeper?...

Is it too early to think about Suisham for the HOF?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

It still all comes down to Gibbs' answer to why he decided to kick on first down. Had he simply looked into the camera and matter-of-factly said, "I had no doubt Shaun would make the kick", I would have felt much better.

Kicking from that far out on first down just felt wrong. Plain and simple. The win didn't feel complete. I wasn't sure why and was too tired to even think about until reading Art's article.

Let's just hope the team read this and rallies around Gibbs this week and can keep it going in Philthy.

The win didn't "feel complete"? Huh?

This is what I, and some others on here, were referring to when we say that it's not Gibbs' mission to make fans feel good...it's his mission to win games. That it's all about "style points"...if Randle El had somehow made it those few extra yards after the Hail Mary, would we all feel better about the win? Would be feel it was "more complete"?

The stark reality is, nobody on any NFL team cares at all about how fans feel when they win...and they shouldn't. Who really gives a rat's patootie if we fans didn't like the feeling of kicking on 1st down instead of 2nd down? We treat field goals like we would taking our sister to the prom or something lol...field goals are only kicked when you are stopped, you don't stop yourself to kick a field goal...

Bull****...happens like mad all the damn time in OT. 1st down, 2nd down, 3rd down...coaches only care about getting into field goal range.

This is getting funny lol...only us ES members would split the hairs a million ways on a play that got us a win. :laugh:

[TheLongshot]

It still all comes down to Gibbs' answer to why he decided to kick on first down. Had he simply looked into the camera and matter-of-factly said, "I had no doubt Shaun would make the kick", I would have felt much better.

You must not have seen his press conference yesterday.

"I had great confidence, obviously, in Shaun."

That was a little after 9 minutes in, if you want to check it.

But, that was obvious from when Gibbs put him in there. He didn't need to say it.

Jason

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The Redskins have not been a good team for a long time. The Skins are in a spot where, as Wilbon says, first you may have to win, and then you become good. Gibbs was taking a chance either way. You are obviously right that conventional wisdom would say run a few more low risk plays before kicking, maybe two low risk runs and kick on third down. But OH MAN, if rookie Heyor holds and we end up punting when we were already in field goal range? OUCH. Kicker misses - ouch. Penalty, turnover, loss, I think the team is fragile enough that it would be tough to recover from.

Setting aside what statement is made, and I agree, the statement was Gibbs was a bit scared, but he thought this was the best chance to win. Art, as you often point out, these guys do this for a living and Gibbs is in the HOF, if he thinks this is the best chance to win, who are you to question it? Statements are better left for after you've wrapped up home field advantage or have the game in hand or after the season is lost and you're trying to build for next year. With the iffiness of the team's situation now, particularly on offense, I believe it wasn't the best message to send but getting the W was more important. It makes more sense when you consider that prior to this game Campbell had never handed off to Portis in a game, Heyor who had never taken a live snap at RT was playing, and Campbell was also having a very mixed game.

Let them get their feet under them, slowly build some confidence, get Campbell playing more comfortably, get the oline settled, and make a statement against the Cardinals or Detroit or someone when we can kick the **** out of them.

:applause: Nicely said...couldn't agree more.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Is it too early to think about Suisham for the HOF?

Is this your way of saying "I don't really have a comeback for what you said"?...

[Art]

I'm still baffled how calling a game-winning play is "silly", especially when the guy you're asking to make that play is pretty much 100% accurate from inside that range and has been kicking them 20 yards deeper?...

There's nothing whatsoever in the NFL coaches handbook that says you must use up all of your downs before winning the game lol...THAT, to me, would be silly.

Cali, I don't think you're actually baffled. I don't think you believe the field goal was a good call because he made it or that it would have been a bad call had he missed it. A call is good or bad the moment is is made. The outcome doesn't impact the decision itself. I do not believe you allow yourself to judge everything that happens solely based on the outcome.

Do you?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

This is what I don't get...

Gibbs is "playing scared" if he kicks the field goal on 1st down...

Yet Gibbs is "taking a risk" by not moving the ball forward more so that the field goal is a safer bet...

Yet Gibbs should have just kept pounding it in until they stopped the offense, which means a field goal and whether or not it's makable shouldn't have entered his mind...

And yet, Gibbs should have ALSO taken in all the possibilities, and made the smartest choice that he felt would lead to a win...

And yet still, Gibbs should have sent a "message" to his offense that he believed in them...

But yet still, Gibbs should have sent a "message" to his kicker that he believed in him as well...

I still feel this is a big to-do about really nothing...and is triggered by how we view field goals as fans. They're consolation prizes, not as valid as TDs...you "settle" for field goals, so it's never seen as aggressive when a coach calls for one.

Which is, for the most part, true...except in OT.

[Art]

You must not have seen his press conference yesterday.

"I had great confidence, obviously, in Shaun."

That was a little after 9 minutes in, if you want to check it.

But, that was obvious from when Gibbs put him in there. He didn't need to say it.

Jason

That all he said, Jason, or did he say anything else? Since you know the answer, why would you cherry pick what was said almost as an afterthought to the primary answer he spent more time on in explaining?

[TheLongshot]

Cali, I don't think you're actually baffled. I don't think you believe the field goal was a good call because he made it or that it would have been a bad call had he missed it. A call is good or bad the moment is is made. The outcome doesn't impact the decision itself. I do not believe you allow yourself to judge everything that happens solely based on the outcome.

Do you?

But, if you have confidence that your field goal kicker can make a 40 yard field goal, is it a bad decision to let him kick it? You seem to think it is.

Jason

[JimmiJo]

Good stuff Art. I appreciate you calling it like you see it.

[Oldfan]

Is this your way of saying "I don't really have a comeback for what you said"?...

:laugh:It was my way of saying that lacking a logical argument you felt the need to exaggerate Suisham's ability. He's still unproven. This confidence of yours is born of hindsight.