ncr2h Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 From Webster’s Dictionary: “Brunell Hater” – a Redskins “fan” who irrationally picks on Mark Brunell, criticizing his age, religion, “noodle arm”, affinity for throwing the ball out of bounds, and his alleged inability to stretch the field. Also marked by an uncanny ability to attribute all of Brunell’s accomplishments to the players around him, while at the same time claiming that these players have little to do with the successes of the quarterback they support. Also marked by a fondness for classless personal insults against Brunell, despite the fact that he is one of our own players. ____ Brunell Fact – Mark Brunell completed more 20+ yard passes per game in 2006 than Jason Campbell.* ____ I would like to address an issue that has come out of the blue in the past 2 weeks: the “competition” for backup quarterback, and the championing of Todd Collins as our #2 QB. The Brunell Hater Nation, for the most part, endorses Todd Collins as the #2. I would like to demonstrate the hypocrisy of this viewpoint. ____ Brunell Fact – The 2006 Redskins had a higher win % under Mark Brunell than Jason Campbell. This, while playing a larger % of his games against playoff teams than Campbell.* ____ Here are Brunell Hater Nation’s gripes with Brunell, as I see them: (1) “Dink and dunk” offense – they claim his lack of arm strength limits the offense. This, they say, causes opposing defenses to stack 8 men in the box, preventing us from rushing. (2) “Throws the ball out of bounds too much” – he is too conservative with the ball, they say. They want a guy in there who can make things happen. (3) “Doesn’t throw to the middle of the field” – they claim he cannot see over his own offensive guards, which may prevent him from attacking the middle of the field. (4) “Is old and slow” – He’s too old to scramble for the extra yards when the play’s not there. (5) “Noodle arm” – For whatever reason, he doesn’t have the strength to make all the NFL throws with enough velocity. What the Brunell Hater Nation apparently cannot see is that TODD COLLINS HAS ALL OF THE ABOVE TRAITS, MINUS 10 YEARS OF STARTING EXPERIENCE! He’s everything you guys hate about Brunell, but even slower and with an even weaker arm, and he hasn’t even made a meaningful throw in 10 years. Do you think he could have really gotten 3 wins for us last year? I don’t think so. An NFL coach is asking himself ONE thing when he puts a player in: “What is this guy going to do for me out there?” With Brunell, we have a definite answer: he’s not going to be spectacular, but he will take care of the ball and he wont buckle under the pressure. With Collins, it’s a big question mark. This guy hasn’t seen a defense with more than 3rd string talent in over 10 years. ____ Brunell Fact: Brunell has a career QB rating of 84.2. Collins, who has only seen significant playing time in 2 seasons, has a career QB rating of 70.4. I know QB rating is a meaningless stat to the Brunell Hater Nation, but surely a difference of 10+ points has SOME meaning. ____ Thank you for your time. In summary, I am astonished that 2 PRESEASON games can completely flip flop so many people’s opinion of a career backup QB. Brunell, even at this age, is a much, much, much more reliable option as a #2 QB than Todd Collins. (please note that all off-the-cuff derogatory comments will be ignored. If you hate Brunell for logical reasons, and have evidence to backup why you think Collins is a much better option, then we can talk.) * DISCLAIMER: Campbell is the future. Brunell is the past. I fully support Campbell as starter, and Brunell as backup. Comparisons to Campbell were used to show that Brunell has some merit as QB in the case that he would come in for an injured Campbell, not to claim that Brunell is a better option at QB. --------------------------------------- Troubleshooting: (1) “Brunell makes too much money to be a backup” If we cut Brunell, who are we going to use that money on? If you don’t have an answer to this question, then it doesn’t matter how much he’s making. And for the record, we already have enough money to re-sign Cooley or Taylor (but probably not both). (2) “We should trade Brunell to get some value out of him, because we are going to cut him next year anyway” He already has lots of value as a backup. In a stretch of 2-3 games, he could be an effective stopgap solution where we actually have a chance of winning. With Collins…who knows? Now, for the right price (i.e. a first day pick at the very least) I would not be opposed. (3) "Brunell has done irreparable damage to this franchise, etc." This is an illogical argument. The question we need to be asking ourselves is: "Does Brunell add value as a backup QB right now?" If yes, then we should keep him. In fact he does add value, as the alternative is Todd Collins, a complete uncertainty. (4) “Brunell sucks! Trade that noodle arm for a ham sandwhich. Put Palmer as our #3. **** it…why do we have backup Qbs anyway? Have Randle-El be our #3 QB and use the extra roster space to sign Jesse Lumsden / Marcus Mason / Bryant Westbrook! Yeah!” You’re a moron. --------------------------------------------------- My first thread. Hail to the Redskins, and let's get some intelligent discussion going in here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Yes, I agree. Randel El should be our #3 QB.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Does anyone really care that much? I think Brunell is better than Collins but I am not willing to go to war over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeTK Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 wow.... im not gonna lie, i didnt even read the entire thing. im against all the brunell bashing, but that was one hell of a rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Brunell Fact: He played through injuries last season yet again and had off-season surgery yet again. Is it so hard to believe that all of his injuries have caught up with him and he's completely worn down at 37? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurent Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Brunell Fact: He played through injuries last season yet again and had off-season surgery yet again.Is it so hard to believe that all of his injuries have caught up with him and he's completely worn down at 37? Not hard to believe at all, at the same time who do you want leading your team if Campbell goes down. A guy that has a grand total of 302 career completions over 12 years or the player that's thrown 182 TDs in the same timeframe? To me it's a no brainer, you take the guy with actual game experience every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammsteinSkins Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 the only reason brunell threw longer passes is because he played more games than campbell and he probably threw short routes and the recievers got into the open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mi6 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Don't care! It's time for Boonell to get out of dodge. He was a mistake, and a big one at that. Gibbs maynot admit it, but knows it all to well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralStonewallTaylor Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 were you born in jacksonville? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CM916 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Keeping in mind that I have always liked Brunell, a lot of the main points were flawed. Brunell played nine games and won three of them, Campbell played only seven games and won two. Only one of the teams Brunell beat made it to the playoffs and only barely (Dallas), Campbell also beat a playoff team, the division winning Saints. More games also means that Brunell had more oppurtunities to throw 20 yard passes, especially when we fell way behind up against teams like the Super Bowl Champion Colts. That said, I stuck with Brunell through to the bitter end last season but when the time finally came, I knew he was done. He took some serious punishment from about week 5 onward and wore himself out. Coming into this preseason, he still looked slow, weak, and uncomfortable. Only last weekend did he finally prove to me that he was recovered enough to actually drive down the field and even complete a 36 yard pass. As it stands, however, while they both seem to run a dink and dunk short passing offense for the most part, Collins is doing it more sucessfully against better competition. I'm a big fan of Brunell but while he has shown some flashes, I don't think he is our best #2 option anymore. There's still time for him to prove otherwise, especially if Campbell sits for week 3 but that could be his last chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hibachi Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 the only reason brunell threw longer passes is because he played more games than campbell Mark averaged 2.66 20-yard pass plays per game. Campbell averaged 1.8 20-yard pass plays per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siven Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Brunell, it's ok. Relax I'll write a letter to Gibbs saying you should be the number 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedBNG Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 uuuuuuh, OK... whatever. I just want to know one thing... if Collins ends up being the backup at the end of preseason, can us Backups have another avatar choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNoRevs Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Mark is that you? I like how you put your own facts about yourself in the thread, cute! But still, thank you for what you did for is in 2005! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxley Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Reading this thread is like drinking a can of petrol and then pissing in someones fire. Id take Brunell over Collins based on the fact that he has game experience. We all talk about how Campbell needs game experience, surely his backup does too. I agree with the threadstarter based on that presumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 We don't need a 10 minute long rant, all you needed to say was Brunell has been the #1 before, knows the offense, and has the same or better tools than Todd Collins. Then again I already support keeping Brunell as the backup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smoke-n-mirrors Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Dude, last year Brunell looked like the rookie out there, scared and flustered. I really don't even care who the back up is, but I wouldn't mind seeing us get something for Brunell!! (not gonna happen!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Neither guy is particularly attractive and you do make valid points. I was not overly impressed with Todd last Saturday. The TD he threw was a nice pass however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswerdlw Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Yes, as it stands Brunell should be the #2. No question. I'm interested to see, however, what qbs are available once teams trim their rosters. I wouldn't mind picking up a more experienced qb with a stronger arm and fewer years than Brunell or Collins. It wouldn't suprise me to see a couple of those kinds of guys available -- somebody like Kelly Holcomb or one of the Tampa Bay cast of characters, who could back up JC for more than a year or two. We could then cut one of the two (probably Collins) and have the new QB as our #3 until he learns the offense well enough to move into the #2 slot. Palmer remains on the practice squad until, one hopes, he could assume the #3 role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Yes, as it stands Brunell should be the #2. No question. I'm interested to see, however, what qbs are available once teams trim their rosters. I wouldn't mind picking up a more experienced qb with a stronger arm and fewer years than Brunell or Collins. It wouldn't suprise me to see a couple of those kinds of guys available -- somebody like Kelly Holcomb or one of the Tampa Bay cast of characters, who could back up JC for more than a year or two. We could then cut one of the two (probably Collins) and have the new QB as our #3 until he learns the offense well enough to move into the #2 slot. Palmer remains on the practice squad until, one hopes, he could assume the #3 role. I like Holcomb too, but I see no chance of him departing the Eagles given McNabb's injury history. Holcomb would have been a good choice of a veteran QB to bring into the organization IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngloSackSon Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Having an experienced veteran backup QB is preferable in most instances. However, Collins played well on Sat. by doing precisely what he has been advertised as being capable of doing, knowing the offense thouroughly. Brunell is 37 years old with a ton of wear on his body. Perhaps his strongest attribute over the course of his career, his ability to scramble, can no longer even be a semi-strong consideration when determining his viability. Brunell, having had so much success over time still thinks like the playmaking QB he once was. When hurried by the blitz, if Brunell is not sacked, he will usually roll out to his left and attempt to connect with his closest down field receiver. Most often, this results in the ball being thrown out of bounds. Collins has shown a superior ability to read the blitz, and being a strict pocket passer, is forced to immediately dump-off. This play often results in a gain of a few yards or so, an alternative I prefer to what usually amounts to a wasted down. Of course Campbell is the only QB with significant arm strength, therefore in the event that the 'Skins are forced to field a backup, opposing defenses are going to stack the line, and blitz constantly. I'd feel alot better if a dump-off is the first line of defense. The coaches probably perceive Brunell as a potential playmaker, and Collins as the more prepared in terms of managing the offense. I believe both players are low-risk in terms of turning the ball over. I also believe Collins, due to Brunell's shoulder issue, is better suited to attempt any deep passing. If Collins can continue to show poise, and keep defenses honest, as he has the past two games, I'd expect he will gain enough trust from the team to oust Brunell for 2nd fiddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I've been behind Brunell from day one. Glad to see someone bringing some sense to this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible_Red40 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 FACT: Mark Brunell has a drivers license and drove Mr. Gibbs to the hospital once. That plus his stats/leadership, will make him the number 2 guy. Collins has played well in preseason, but by no means am I comfortable with him under centre if he was number 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan09 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I dont see why we dont keep both Todd and Brunell and put palmer on practice squad til next year - Seeeeeeeems like a no brainer to meeee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 From Webster’s Dictionary:“Brunell Hater” – a Redskins “fan” who irrationally picks on Mark Brunell, criticizing his age, religion, “noodle arm”, affinity for throwing the ball out of bounds, and his alleged inability to stretch the field. Also marked by an uncanny ability to attribute all of Brunell’s accomplishments to the players around him, while at the same time claiming that these players have little to do with the successes of the quarterback they support. Also marked by a fondness for classless personal insults against Brunell, despite the fact that he is one of our own players. ____ Brunell Fact – Mark Brunell completed more 20+ yard passes per game in 2006 than Jason Campbell.* ____ I would like to address an issue that has come out of the blue in the past 2 weeks: the “competition” for backup quarterback, and the championing of Todd Collins as our #2 QB. The Brunell Hater Nation, for the most part, endorses Todd Collins as the #2. I would like to demonstrate the hypocrisy of this viewpoint. ____ Brunell Fact – The 2006 Redskins had a higher win % under Mark Brunell than Jason Campbell. This, while playing a larger % of his games against playoff teams than Campbell.* ____ Here are Brunell Hater Nation’s gripes with Brunell, as I see them: (1) “Dink and dunk” offense – they claim his lack of arm strength limits the offense. This, they say, causes opposing defenses to stack 8 men in the box, preventing us from rushing. (2) “Throws the ball out of bounds too much” – he is too conservative with the ball, they say. They want a guy in there who can make things happen. (3) “Doesn’t throw to the middle of the field” – they claim he cannot see over his own offensive guards, which may prevent him from attacking the middle of the field. (4) “Is old and slow” – He’s too old to scramble for the extra yards when the play’s not there. (5) “Noodle arm” – For whatever reason, he doesn’t have the strength to make all the NFL throws with enough velocity. What the Brunell Hater Nation apparently cannot see is that TODD COLLINS HAS ALL OF THE ABOVE TRAITS, MINUS 10 YEARS OF STARTING EXPERIENCE! He’s everything you guys hate about Brunell, but even slower and with an even weaker arm, and he hasn’t even made a meaningful throw in 10 years. Do you think he could have really gotten 3 wins for us last year? I don’t think so. An NFL coach is asking himself ONE thing when he puts a player in: “What is this guy going to do for me out there?” With Brunell, we have a definite answer: he’s not going to be spectacular, but he will take care of the ball and he wont buckle under the pressure. With Collins, it’s a big question mark. This guy hasn’t seen a defense with more than 3rd string talent in over 10 years. ____ Brunell Fact: Brunell has a career QB rating of 84.2. Collins, who has only seen significant playing time in 2 seasons, has a career QB rating of 70.4. I know QB rating is a meaningless stat to the Brunell Hater Nation, but surely a difference of 10+ points has SOME meaning. ____ Thank you for your time. In summary, I am astonished that 2 PRESEASON games can completely flip flop so many people’s opinion of a career backup QB. Brunell, even at this age, is a much, much, much more reliable option as a #2 QB than Todd Collins. (please note that all off-the-cuff derogatory comments will be ignored. If you hate Brunell for logical reasons, and have evidence to backup why you think Collins is a much better option, then we can talk.) * DISCLAIMER: Campbell is the future. Brunell is the past. I fully support Campbell as starter, and Brunell as backup. Comparisons to Campbell were used to show that Brunell has some merit as QB in the case that he would come in for an injured Campbell, not to claim that Brunell is a better option at QB. --------------------------------------- Troubleshooting: (1) “Brunell makes too much money to be a backup” If we cut Brunell, who are we going to use that money on? If you don’t have an answer to this question, then it doesn’t matter how much he’s making. And for the record, we already have enough money to re-sign Cooley or Taylor (but probably not both). (2) “We should trade Brunell to get some value out of him, because we are going to cut him next year anyway” He already has lots of value as a backup. In a stretch of 2-3 games, he could be an effective stopgap solution where we actually have a chance of winning. With Collins…who knows? Now, for the right price (i.e. a first day pick at the very least) I would not be opposed. (3) "Brunell has done irreparable damage to this franchise, etc." This is an illogical argument. The question we need to be asking ourselves is: "Does Brunell add value as a backup QB right now?" If yes, then we should keep him. In fact he does add value, as the alternative is Todd Collins, a complete uncertainty. (4) “Brunell sucks! Trade that noodle arm for a ham sandwhich. Put Palmer as our #3. **** it…why do we have backup Qbs anyway? Have Randle-El be our #3 QB and use the extra roster space to sign Jesse Lumsden / Marcus Mason / Bryant Westbrook! Yeah!” You’re a moron. --------------------------------------------------- My first thread. Hail to the Redskins, and let's get some intelligent discussion going in here! :rant: nice. Can I get you to write me a rant about how bad Cartwright sucks? You seem to have "the gift". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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