A Call To Sanity (Brunell vs. Collins)

[SkinsFTW]

Come on man, Portis was healthy during most of Brunell's starts. Campbell had Betts, and the defense was worse after the first few games.

BTW, those were Campbells first 7 starts. The team didn't even get him ready. He hadn't even practiced with the first team before he started. They blew it, Brunell is garbage.

That is all.

[SkinsFTW]

One more thing.

You are probably right that he is better than Collins.

That is what the next 2 games are for though. So far it is Collins 1 Brunell -1.

[Larry Gude]

It seems to be the consensus that Collins has played at least a little better than Mark these first two pre season games, agreed by all, or most all?

If so, there is also plenty of anecdotal comments that Todd has looked at least a bit sharper than Mark in practice. Agreed?

If so, then we, as fans, have a baseline to start from. As of right now, Collins is playing at least a bit better than Mark.

If that is pretty much agreed upon, then, as fans, can we agree that if this trend continues over the next two preseason games, that it is pretty much agreed that Collins is doing better than Mark, then would we all say that that current results should be the deciding factor between the two and that Collins then would have earned the #2 spot?

If so, then, can we all agree that as long as Joe Gibbs is head coach, Mark Brunell will be #2 come seasons start? No matter what?

Can we also agree that the Brunell fans would be better served to accept that the non Brunell fans do not hate the guy. We just think that had Joe given Ramsey anywhere near the unconditional support he has given Mark then we would have gone to the Superbowl in 2005, Dallas would have been hit by Katrina, the housing market would not be collapsing and American Idol would have been banned by the FCC.

We don't hate the guy. We just think the world would have been a better place had he stayed in Jacksonville. It's not personal. Just business.

[Popeman38]

The only information I need to make my decision is this:

If Todd Collins knows Al Saunders' offense sooo well, Why was Todd Collins never given the opportunity to actually drive the car?

He was always the drivers ed teacher for a reason:

Those who can't, teach.

:2cents:

*****No offense intended to the teachers out there. :D

[D-Day]

From Webster’s Dictionary:

“Brunell Hater” – a Redskins “fan” who irrationally picks on Mark Brunell, criticizing his age, religion, “noodle arm”, affinity for throwing the ball out of bounds, and his alleged inability to stretch the field. Also marked by an uncanny ability to attribute all of Brunell’s accomplishments to the players around him, while at the same time claiming that these players have little to do with the successes of the quarterback they support. Also marked by a fondness for classless personal insults against Brunell, despite the fact that he is one of our own players.

"Brunell Lover" - A Redskins "FAN" who considers the team line to be the only one that is correct and anyone who questions those decisions to be Morons and idiots. The routinely ignore the obvious stats that have been presented over and over again. The turn their up their noses and cross their arms/ while sticking their heads in the sand. One good game out of three or four is routinely enough to satisfy them and allows them to say "He looked good and all the Haters need to bow down and worship" meanwhile they are ghost when he has a normal game.

It is astonishing to me that fans can't see the offense stall everytime he is on the field. He will get another shot this week and we will see what he can do. However if Collins does do better AGAIN, then it is in my mind a complete waste of a roster spot to have him on this team. I don't see how the team has a better chance of winning with him on the field considering he has shown nothing except a few good passes (most NFL QB's can have a few good passes per drive, not per game). If we are down to the #3 QB then I would rather we develop a young guy who might actually get some reps in practice.

Now MB did appear to have a better arm this week. Was it attributed to less reps in practice or the notion that he is fighting for a spot and he literally put everything he could on the ball. His accurracy was off but he was also throwing to people who will be cut. So the routes could have been run wrong. However it is hard to dispute throwing the ball three feet too high to a wide open receiver. On the opposing side he was also throwing against soon to be street FA's.

Now it is not the cap space that drives my determination to see him gone. It is the obvious with your eyes analysis that he just doesn't have it and he is a liability to this offense. Todd Collins, although he is a career backup with many of the same flaws as MB, actually showed knowledge of the offense with his quick reactions to the blitzes and he also showed some touch. Now MB had to wind up to get the passes down the middle and for any distance. At one time it may have been valid to say that Collins has a weaker arm, now I am not so sure. Add to that, that he doesn't appear to have the same grasp of the O, it is always wr, rb, out of bounds.

I also don't agree with the notion that most of your post points too. You are saying that because of reputation and the past MB is a better backup. I say because of recent performances this year TC is better AT THIS POINT in their careers. He showed better against better players then MB did against soon to be FA's.

That should be the deciding factor in this debate. Not what was done last year or the last ten years. What have they done this year so far.

Edit = Forgot to say that I don't think either is a viable #2 and we are screwed if JC goes down. If in the unlikely event we do get a trade offer for any draft pick for MB then we need to take it to get something for him.

[ThomasRoane]

Regardless of who wins #2; the odd man out needs to go and let Jordan begin his tutelage.

[viper30]

Very Nice Presentation, And Your Facts Are Undisputable....

Problem Is Though, Brunell Is The Blame For Everything Around Here And He Has Become The Perfect Scapegoat...last Year The Defense Was Ranked 31st Because Of Brunell, Sean Taylor Did Not Play Good Because Of Brunell, John Hall Missed Field Goals Because Of Brunell, Etc.....

A Big Underlying Problem You Didnot Address Is That Al Saunders Does Not Like Brunell And Is Really Pushing For Collins, Creating A Major Riff Between Gibbs And Saunders...

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

mark brunell threw 260 passes last season

73% of them were thrown 10 yards or less.

27% of them were thrown behind the line of scrimmage

mark brunell sucks. end of thread.

[Dick Edds]

Brunell has had a great carreer as an NFL QB, I have been frustrated with him at times, but I do appreciate that sweet playoff run that he helped us make in '05. But as it stands, right now, Todd Collins is not only healthier, but is more accurate and understands this offense more than anyone else, besides Saunders himself.

He has much more confidence in himself and control of what we are doing offensively, than Brunell. I'm not disregarding the downside of Collins not throwing a meaningfully pass in 6 years, that is not something to causally overlook. But I think he could be similar to a Damon Huard (if given the chance), in that he may be an older vet, but he's very healthy having not been crunched and beat up like Brunell has been. He is experienced in this offense, he has been a starter in the past, though I realize that was years ago.

I think that just because Collins did not had the opportunity to start any games in KC, or so far with us, does not mean that he is not capable of running this offense. If the defense continues to improve, and for some awful reason Campbell had to be pulled out from a game, my vote would go for Collins. We already know what we would have with Brunell, and at this point in time, I think Collins knowledge of the offense and physical ability trumps Brunell's QB experience and lack of physical ability. This is just my opinion only, nothing more, nothing less. HTTR!

[Skins24]

It seems to be the consensus that Collins has played at least a little better than Mark these first two pre season games, agreed by all, or most all?

It's not just that's he's played better but more importantly, the team as a whole has played better with Collins under center than with Mark.

The only information I need to make my decision is this:

If Todd Collins knows Al Saunders' offense sooo well, Why was Todd Collins never given the opportunity to actually drive the car?

He was in no way shape or form better than Trent Green. That doesn't mean he doesn't know the offense though. He knows it better than Brunell for sure, which is probably why the team looked better under Collins.

[D-Day]

mark brunell threw 260 passes last season

73% of them were thrown 10 yards or less.

27% of them were thrown behind the line of scrimmage

mark brunell sucks. end of thread.

Please don't try to say it was the offense. JC was a rookie with little experience in the offense and with the players. He should have been looking for the short safety valve type plays.

In 9 games started MB's numbers

Behind the Line = 52/70/74.3% - 27% of all passes thrown

1 -10 yards = 83/119/69.7 - 45.8%

11-20 yards = 15/44/34% - 17%

21-30 yds = 9/19/47.4% - 7.3%

31-40 yds = 2/7/28% - 2.7%

40+ = 1/1/100% - 0.4%

In 7 games JC

Behind the Line = 23/34/67.6% - 16.4% of all passes thrown

1 -10 yards = 57/91/62.6% - 44%

11-20 yards = 25/51/49% - 24.6%

21-30 yds = 2/16/12.5% - 7.7%

31-40 yds = 3/7/42.9% - 3.4%

40+ = 0/8/0% - 3.9%

[The Fuzz]

At least one flaw with your points that I noticed right away. You said,

"(3) “Doesn’t throw to the middle of the field” – they claim he cannot see over his own offensive guards, which may prevent him from attacking the middle of the field."

Then summized that Todd Collins has all of the above traits that you listed. Todd Collins is listed between 6'4" -6'5". The same height as our starting quaterback. Not sure how you can affix your third point to Collins. Granted it's a miniscule point to argue over it's just hard to consider your other points when you make such a glaring mistake as one of your key points.

The other ommission is when you stated that Collins has only gone against 3rd string D's in the last 10 years. He came in to replace Campbell in the 1st quarter if I'm not mistaken. That means he went up against the steelers 1st and 2nd string defense and looked calm, cool and collected running an offense he knows inherently at this point. Meanwhile, Brunnell came in against the 3rd string D and, while there was a flash or two, still couldn't muster up 3 points for the go ahead score.

In contrast to my above points I'm not sold on Collins as our #2. As others have said already in this thread there is a reason there are still 2 more games to play before the season starts. Collins and Brunnell have two more chances to show that they deserve said position. One point I have that really irks me about Brunnell is his inability to get the play, get his players in position, and take a snap consistently during any given game. Last week against the titans he burned two timeouts because he couldn't get his players in position before there was so little time left on the playclock that he would have been flagged for delay of game had he not called a timeout. That's nothing new with Brunnell. He's had this same problem since he came to DC that I've noticed. It's not Saunders plays that are confusing him. He did the same thing when Joe was running the offense. I have no idea what the problem but it bugs the hell out of me that this game experienced QB can't get the play and get his players in position without having to burn timeouts whether it's preseason or playoff football.

And I'm spent...

[thewagen]

TODD COLLINS is a DISASTER waiting to happen if the 'Skins think he could capably replace an injured (or ineffective) JCampbell. He may know the offense, but there is a reason he has been a TWELVE year BACKUP!!!!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Please don't try to say it was the offense. JC was a rookie with little experience in the offense and with the players. He should have been looking for the short safety valve type plays.

In 9 games started MB's numbers

Behind the Line = 52/70/74.3% - 27% of all passes thrown

1 -10 yards = 83/119/69.7 - 45.8%

11-20 yards = 15/44/34% - 17%

21-30 yds = 9/19/47.4% - 7.3%

31-40 yds = 2/7/28% - 2.7%

40+ = 1/1/100% - 0.4%

In 7 games JC

Behind the Line = 23/34/67.6% - 16.4% of all passes thrown

1 -10 yards = 57/91/62.6% - 44%

11-20 yards = 25/51/49% - 24.6%

21-30 yds = 2/16/12.5% - 7.7%

31-40 yds = 3/7/42.9% - 3.4%

40+ = 0/8/0% - 3.9%

the numbers you just posted prove that campbell was throwing the ball further than brunell was. his accuracy wasnt so great at times, but defenses had to at least respect the threat. there is no threat with mark brunell in the game. have you even watched him this preseason? if youre ok with him coming in if campbell goes down, well......

[Dick Edds]

mark brunell threw 260 passes last season

73% of them were thrown 10 yards or less.

27% of them were thrown behind the line of scrimmage

mark brunell sucks. end of thread.

BLC pretty much summed it up. I think Brunell is a class act and a stand up guy, I thin he can hold his head high and be proud that he is the 9th rated all time passer in the NFL (?).

I think had he won a SB people might be possibly talking HOF credentials for him. Unfortunately it didn't work out for him in that way. I appreciate what he did for us, and what he may be asked to do for us in his limited role this year.

All that being said, i believe Collins has shown with what limited chances he has had, that he deserves the #2 spot. Hopefully this is all a moot point and we will not see either of them in any games this year. HTTR.

[jgwyn500]

Brunell's biggest downfall with fans imo is he is boring as hell to watch. I really think thats why a lot of fans dont like him. Watching him play is excruciating.

And besides, he reminds me of Darth Vadar coming out to play. Knee braces, elbow pads, rib guards. The guy is half machine at this point.

[Hawgzilla]

(1) “Brunell makes too much money to be a backup”

If we cut Brunell, who are we going to use that money on? If you don’t have an answer to this question, then it doesn’t matter how much he’s making. And for the record, we already have enough money to re-sign Cooley or Taylor (but probably not both).

I for one darned sure hope that JC stays healthy and neither Brunell or Collins gets on the field. If either of them see significant playing time this year we are screwed. Period. Is there really a big difference between Brunell and Collins at this point. Probably not.

I have an answer on who to spend the money on if we get rid of Brunell........ spend it on Taylor AND Cooley. I would hate to lose either of them. As far as Collins or Brunell, take yer pick cause there is no light at the end of either of those tunnels.

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[D-Day]

TODD COLLINS is a DISASTER waiting to happen if the 'Skins think he could capably replace an injured (or ineffective) JCampbell. He may know the offense, but there is a reason he has been a TWELVE year BACKUP!!!!

I agree with this argument but other sides point is that MB has PROVEN that he is a disaster under center. Sure he has had a few good games and a few highlight moments over the last few years. At this point we know what Brunell brings and it is not pretty. If a trade is offered take it, if not so what if he is #3 or #2, screwed either way.

The only real debate in my mind is whether or not we should trade him if it is offered.

[D-Day]

Brunell's biggest downfall with fans imo is he is boring as hell to watch. I really think thats why a lot of fans dont like him. Watching him play is excruciating.

And besides, he reminds me of Darth Vadar coming out to play. Knee braces, elbow pads, rib guards. The guy is half machine at this point.

Yes watching him play is excruciating.

[Chachie]

It is not that he is boring, it is he is ineffective. Too many short drives. Hell they are getting out of the car before the engine starts. Although watching him play is excruciating.

So you choose to blame one man out of eleven for this. His job depends on the support of 10 others and a coach. He took over the QB spot for a head coach who had to get his NFL legs under him in 2004. In 2005 he made it work for that coach, doing it that coach's way. In 2006 Gibbs brought in an entirely new playbook under Saunders. Brunell, Portis, Moss and the o-line ALL had to adjust again. The 5-11 record should come as no surprise, especially with the injuries, which Brunell also had but played through unlike some of his teammates.

Bro- we simply haven't had a very good TEAM for a lot longer than Mark has been here. Don't blame the one guy who has played tough and kept his mouth shut through it all. Joe Gibbs (a man who is not afraid to cut or trade players) believes in Brunell all the way. I think he knows a lot more about this stuff than anyone on this board.

[D-Day]

So you choose to blame one man out of eleven for this. His job depends on the support of 10 others and a coach. He took over the QB spot for a head coach who had to get his NFL legs under him in 2004. In 2005 he made it work for that coach, doing it that coach's way. In 2006 Gibbs brought in an entirely new playbook under Saunders. Brunell, Portis, Moss and the o-line ALL had to adjust again. The 5-11 record should come as no surprise, especially with the injuries, which Brunell also had but played through unlike some of his teammates.

Bro- we simply haven't had a very good TEAM for a lot longer than Mark has been here. Don't blame the one guy who has played tough and kept his mouth shut through it all. Joe Gibbs (a man who is not afraid to cut or trade players) believes in Brunell all the way. I think he knows a lot more about this stuff than anyone on this board.

I edited my comments a while ago because I realize it was unfair.

But, a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 7 doesn't help.

[Drunken Master III]

Scott Brunell is done. Are you his son?

[SoCalSkins]

From Webster’s Dictionary:

“Brunell Hater” – a Redskins “fan” who irrationally picks on Mark Brunell, criticizing his age, religion, “noodle arm”, affinity for throwing the ball out of bounds, and his alleged inability to stretch the field. Also marked by an uncanny ability to attribute all of Brunell’s accomplishments to the players around him, while at the same time claiming that these players have little to do with the successes of the quarterback they support. Also marked by a fondness for classless personal insults against Brunell, despite the fact that he is one of our own players.

"Brunell lover"- A Redskins fan with an agenda, either religious, member of the noodle industry etc., who irrationaly defends Mark Brunell's play by pointing to everything he does off the football field and does not hold him accountable for what he does on the field, including costing the franchise at least 1 Superbowl appearance. Additionally, these fans have a deep hate for Joe Gibbs, because they are happy to have his record tarnished as a result of his confidence in Mr. noodle arm.

Moreover, these fans with their limited mental capacity, attempt to justify the continuation of the most worthless qb in the nfl on the roster by selectively using meaningless stats to defend his play. Yet, at the same time, they ignore other glaring statistics such as his record for least passing yards by an NFL team in a playoff win and credit him for winning games in which he has made more negative contributions than positive ones. In short these "fans" are to fans what Norv Turner is to being a head coach. Nice people who don't get it.

[wpenn1]

I cant believe someone spent this much time defending boonell and now I am mad at myself for actually reading it.

Brunell sucks and that doesnt mean that Collins is great. It just means that Brunell sucks.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I've never seen any player, on any team, ever, go 3-6 and get so much sympathy. You'd think the guy won a couple superbowls for us in a past lifetime.