A good example against the Death Penalty

[DjTj]

I actually do agree with one thing you said... in most cases, if you stay out of trouble, you will not have to worry about getting arrested for a serious crime.

Unfortunately, in this case, the man put in jail had learning disabilities and was framed by the real perpetrator. That's pretty much the nightmare scenario for the "staying out of trouble" theory:

The supposed confession was so riddled with problems that by the time Halsey’s trial started, the prosecution began to argue against the confession – telling the jury that Halsey intentionally gave a flawed confession as a “passport” out of being found guilty. In fact, the “confession” was the result of 30 hours of interrogation over a 40-hour period of time during which Halsey (who has a sixth-grade education and severe learning disabilities) had little sleep. Even the detective handling the interrogation characterized Halsey’s statements as “gibberish” and noted that Halsey was in a “daze” and a “trance” most of the time. On every key fact of the crimes, Halsey gave incorrect answers during the interrogation and had to guess several times before giving police accurate answers (on everything from the location of the bodies to how they were killed). The final police statement signed by Halsey does not reflect any of those inaccuracies or the process that led to them – it only recites the information that Halsey eventually guessed correctly after numerous tries and information about the crime he received from police and repeated back in fragments. Halsey confessed to things that DNA now proves did not happen.

The events leading up to Halsey’s wrongful conviction began on November 14, 1985. Halsey was living with Margaret Urquhart and her two young children in a rooming house in Plainfield; Halsey helped support the family and raised the children as his own. Halsey worked days at PMS Consolidated, and Urquhart worked nights as a health aide. On the night of November 14, Urquhart was at work and Cliff Hall (who lived in the same building) took Halsey across town while the children were home alone. After dropping Halsey off with friends, Hall went home. Cliff Hall’s whereabouts are unaccounted for the following two hours. Halsey, meanwhile, walked home a couple of hours after Hall dropped him off (which several witnesses corroborate) and discovered that the children were missing. Throughout the night, he repeatedly called Urquhart at work and checked with several friends and relatives to see if they had the children. The next morning, the children were found in the basement of the rooming house.

From his behavior and other evidence, police suspected Cliff Hall from the beginning. But as the lengthy interrogation of Halsey progressed, leading to the supposed confession, police stopped investigating Hall. By the time Halsey’s trial began, nearly three years later, Hall was called as a witness for the prosecution. Even though his testimony was contradicted by other witnesses, it was damaging to Halsey’s case. Halsey’s attorneys, both public defenders, presented evidence of Halsey’s alibi and argued strongly that his supposed confession was not valid. Regardless, the jury convicted him. Halsey – who had actually been born in prison in New Jersey to a mother who was convicted of fornication and essentially put in prison for being pregnant – was sentenced to two consecutive life terms, plus 20 years, in prison.

Cliff Hall committed three separate sex crimes in Plainfield during an 11-month period in 1991-1992. In June 1991, he grabbed an 18-year-old woman from behind on a street and, holding a knife to her throat, orally, vaginally and anally raped her for up to three hours. Three months later, he abducted a 19-year-old woman and took her to a building where he repeatedly and violently raped her vaginally and anally for two hours. Several months after that, he punched and attempted to rape a 26-year-old woman as she walked toward a train station in Plainfield. Hall pled guilty to all three of these crimes (all off which were committed while Halsey was in prison for the murders that DNA now indicates Hall committed).

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/583.php

[Mass_SkinsFan]

But you know better than that. YOU aren't going to be doing anything that warrants punishment anyway, and you know it. You won't even drink a beer or even coast thru a stop sign, for pete's sake, you aren't going to be making that major screw up.

That's not necessarily true, but I'll accept the premise for the sake of this discussion. The biggest thing is that I don't hang out with people, or in areas where this sort of stuff is likely to happen. That's the biggest thing I think people miss.

But let's just say on the way off chance that they arrest you for a murder you didn't commit. You'd be willing to allow yourself to be executed?

If I can't come up with enough of a defense to be able to create a reasonable doubt in the minds of a jury, then yes.

Now, you've GOT to give a little on that point, and as such you've got to be able to at least agree that they should make every effort humanly possible to assure that the condemned is actually the guilty party. You can't just "kill em all and let God sort them out" as it is.

Should they make the attempt, yes. Should they go so far above and beyond what is done for every other crime on the books... HELL NO.

Because you never know,, it COULD be you. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. And if we are going to be a society who uses the ultimate punishment, we should strive to be as sure as we can be before we pass that particular sentence.

Yes, we should strive to make sure we have the right person. However we should not go so completely overboard with the appeals and limitations that the citizens end up paying tens of thousands of dollars a year to keep these rabid animals in a jail cell rather than stretching their necks.

[Guest sith lord]

If that one is me, then more than likely I've screwed up massively in some way, shape, manner or form. If I cannot vouch for my whereabouts, my actions, or my activities, and have placed myself in a position where I could be considered a suspect in a murder, more than likely I've already done something that I should probably be punished for.

I'm starting to realize that you don't have any sense?

[chomerics]

Two things to remember, DC....

First, I don't see much value in ANY human life at this point in time.

Second, I've repeatedly commented that I think our justice system is an absolute joke and completely broken beyond repair.

Want to try a third point?

You are the right's version of the uni-bomber.

[Koolblue13]

I support the death penalty, but only for people that have been convited of seperate crimes multiple times. Kind of like a 3 strike rule.

Oh my god Pete, we agree on something.

[Koolblue13]

I know this has been said a few times before, but MSF, you need a puppy.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I know this has been said a few times before, but MSF, you need a puppy.

I live with four cats, a 70 lb. dog and I own 2 horses. Somehow I don't think a puppy is going to do me any good.

About the only thing that would do me any "good" would be to find the sort of woman I've been seeking for twenty years, inherit a piece of property in the middle of nowhere in the Carolinas or Georgia, and basically be able to separate myself from American society as much as humanly possible for the rest of my life. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.

[Chachie]

See, that's the difference between us. I'll take my chances with cases like this to ensure that I get as many of the truly guilty people as humanly possible put into the ground. I understand most people disagree with that philosophy, and that's fine. I won't even bother to try and change your minds. I just feel that the number of these people wrongly convicted and executed would be very small compared to the number of truly guilty wastes of flesh and oxygen that we'd get rid of.

I can only imagine the next wrongly accused and sentenced-to-death person being you. You'd be singing quite a different tune.

[DCsportsfan53]

I live with four cats, a 70 lb. dog and I own 2 horses. Somehow I don't think a puppy is going to do me any good.

About the only thing that would do me any "good" would be to find the sort of woman I've been seeking for twenty years, inherit a piece of property in the middle of nowhere in the Carolinas or Georgia, and basically be able to separate myself from American society as much as humanly possible for the rest of my life. Unfortunately that's not going to happen.

Or grow up, act like a ****ing man and face your problems instead of becoming a miserly old scrooge, hating yourself and everyone else. Just saying. I can't decide which is a worse withdrawl from reality when life becomes too difficult for someone, turning into a drug addict or turning to self loathing and hatred as you have.

[Bang]

Should they make the attempt, yes. Should they go so far above and beyond what is done for every other crime on the books... HELL NO.

Yes, we should strive to make sure we have the right person. However we should not go so completely overboard with the appeals and limitations that the citizens end up paying tens of thousands of dollars a year to keep these rabid animals in a jail cell rather than stretching their necks.

Well, I think they can go a bit beyond board to prove a person should be or should not be executed. Life is precious, and we can't be careless with it.

The seeming limitless appeals were set up for a time in which modern methods and technologies didn't exist, and are quite possibly simply outdated. However, with modern science, the process can be made to be more accurate.

And if it accurately pinpoints a monster, by all means, inject him.

~Bang

[Kilmer17]

The death penalty is nothing more than Govt sponsored revenge.

If someone can proive to me that the death penalty actually deters crimes, I might change my mind again. But right now, I dont see any reason to execute someone. Throw them in a tiny cell and let them rot. It's cheaper than killing them, and it allows for the original example to occur.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

If someone can proive to me that the death penalty actually deters crimes, I might change my mind again.

I can prove to you that it's a deterent.... I've never once found an instance where an executed criminal ever committed another crime. Not jaywalking. Not speeding. Not even fudging their taxes. It's the ULTIMATE deterent in my mind.

[TimmySmith]

Throw them in a tiny cell and let them rot. It's cheaper than killing them, and it allows for the original example to occur.

Yeah, but this does not happen either. How did Jeffrey Dahmer get in the GP with work benefits?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I can only imagine the next wrongly accused and sentenced-to-death person being you. You'd be singing quite a different tune.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of money on that, Chachie; for a number of reasons that I've already discussed.

[Kilmer17]

I can prove to you that it's a deterent.... I've never once found an instance where an executed criminal ever committed another crime. Not jaywalking. Not speeding. Not even fudging their taxes. It's the ULTIMATE deterent in my mind.

Life in prison does the same thing.

When detereance is mentioned as a reason to support te death penalty, it is used to say that killing one criminal will prevent another from attempting to commit a crime. I've never seen any evidence to support that theory.

[endzone_dave]

Life in prison does the same thing.

When detereance is mentioned as a reason to support te death penalty, it is used to say that killing one criminal will prevent another from attempting to commit a crime. I've never seen any evidence to support that theory.

It was a while back but I saw something that said the odds of getting caught is much more important in deterring crime than the punishment.

[GamaGoliath]

See, that's the difference between us. I'll take my chances with cases like this to ensure that I get as many of the truly guilty people as humanly possible put into the ground. I understand most people disagree with that philosophy, and that's fine. I won't even bother to try and change your minds. I just feel that the number of these people wrongly convicted and executed would be very small compared to the number of truly guilty wastes of flesh and oxygen that we'd get rid of.

I'm sure that you'll feel that way until someone you know and care about is facing similar circumstances. :doh:

Here's another example of our "justice" system in action. Except this guy will most likely die because of a technicality. http://www.troyanthonydavis.org/

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I'm sure that you'll feel that way until someone you know and care about is facing similar circumstances. :doh:

You'd have to find a person that I cared about for that to be a useful arguement, Goliath.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Life in prison does the same thing.

Life in prison costs you and me about $40K a year from what I've read. A 50' stretch of rope costs less than $40 and is re-usable.

CASE CLOSED.

[Kilmer17]

Life in prison costs you and me about $40K a year from what I've read. A 50' stretch of rope costs less than $40 and is re-usable.

CASE CLOSED.

I can prove to you that it costs more to kill someone than it does to keep them in prison for life.

Can you prove that killing that person will prevent another person from committing a crime?

[TMK9973]

I use to be for the Death Penltly. Then I talked to a women who was on a Death Penlty Jury.

She described it in great detail. The idea of civilized people, sitting around, and deciding if the Goverment should put someone to death, is very distrubing.

I have no sympathy for most of these monsters, and do not shead a tear for when they die. But the ones that had to put them to death, I feel for them.

MSF -It amazes me, frankly, how stupid some of your comments are. How about your mom? Is that ok if she was wrongly covinceted?

More importantly -You preach all the time about the risk of the goverment becoming too powerfull, but you belive that same goverment should put more people to death faster. Do you really not see a issue with that?

I Do think anyone on Death Row who wants DNA testing done now, if it was not availbile at the time of his trail, should get it. Automaticly. Many states forbid that unless there is NEW evidence.

Some have argued that this would bog down the proccess. I don't think so. I mean, if you are guilty, and you know your guilty, and you are appeling anyway, your not going to request a DNA test that you know will just remove all doubt.

[PeterMP]

Life in prison does the same thing.

When detereance is mentioned as a reason to support te death penalty, it is used to say that killing one criminal will prevent another from attempting to commit a crime. I've never seen any evidence to support that theory.

Life in prision doesn't ensure that the person doesn't commit another crime. It just ensures that the rest of the crimes the person commits occur in prision or are orchestrated by the person in prision and physically committed by somebody outside of it, which contribues to prisions being largely lawless, and makes rehibilitation of other prisioners difficult if not impossible.

The death penalty does not act as a deterent because it is not used in a manner that allows it to be a deterrent. If it were, it is completely reasonable that it could act as a deterent.

[GamaGoliath]

You'd have to find a person that I cared about for that to be a useful arguement, Goliath.

I'm sorry, but if you have such a bleak existance, why are you still here? You don't seem to care for anybody or anything.

So far as I'm concerned, and I've voiced this previously here at ES, if you're in a position to not be able to prove you are innocence of a crime like this, you were probably doing something you shouldn't have been doing anyway.

This person wasn't doing anything wrong, and if he wasn't lucky enough to be caught on tape at a ball park, during the time the murder he was accused of was taking place, another innocent man would have been on death row even though he didn't put himself in a position to endanger his own freedom or his life. But you don't care anyway...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=1814312

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I can prove to you that it costs more to kill someone than it does to keep them in prison for life.

Only because the government refuses to do it, and instead insists on having a million appeals instead of giving the SOB their last meal and hanging them before it's even fully digested.

Can you prove that killing that person will prevent another person from committing a crime?

That's never been part of my arguement, Kilmer. You know that. My feeling is that it deters the corpse from ever committing another crime and that's all I intend for it to do.

[zoony]

I'm not sure how anyone could be FOR the death penalty.

1. Killing is wrong.

2. The Death Penalty is administered in this country as a function of economic status. How is that fair? Got enough money to pay Johnny Cochran? Guess what... you're not going to the chair, even if a cop, a priest, a judge, and a church lady saw you pull the trigger.

3. Having a death penalty in place implies that our judicial system is perfect. Who wants to make that argument?