Destino Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 'largely built on one anonymous source'.....thats kind of a compelling detail, don't you think Todd? I'm not saying there aren't elements of truth in that story, but truth is far more subjective than most believe around here. I'm amazed that nearly every comment in this thread seems to absolute acceptance of the contents of the that article as 'the truth'. It is a compelling detail - but this isn't something that came out of the blue. It's not a single source saying things for the first time. Williams arrogant attitude concerning player decisions have been talked about for more then a year. His treatment of players that fall out of favor came to everyone's attention during the Arrington drama. The idea that it's the coaching and not the players and that all of them can be replaced has been debated on this site because that the attitude the coaches have. So while this single article was mostly built on a single source, the general theme here has been around for more then a year. This is simply the latest bit of news concerning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaught76 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 If Williams goes, enter Jerry Gray, new defensive coordinate and goodbye Jackson. Just my :2cents:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kovachs Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 For the record, I really like Gregg Williams, and I refuse to sell him down the river based on this kind of article. Well, what about having the last ranked defense in the NFC after three years at the helm. Three years to put in his system and chose the players. Is that enough to sell him down the river? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I find it interesting that one player is responsible for 90% of the article. And, should his name become public, I think he should be cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ineedhelp Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 If Williams goes, enter Jerry Gray, new defensive coordinate and goodbye Jackson.Just my :2cents:. how much do we have to give to G Wil if hes not the next Head Coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve57 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I find it interesting that one player is responsible for 90% of the article.And, should his name become public, I think he should be cut. And sent to Siberia for re-education for bucking the party line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaught76 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 how much do we have to give to G Wil if hes not the next Head Coach? 1 Million Dollars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP26 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 First, Sean Taylor was not amazing before this season even if he is noticeably worse than before. Taylor has had a problem taking bad angles in run defense since his first year and has often been responsible for big gains on the ground. One unnamed source, true. But if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck... We know that the 'Skins treated Pierce poorly and probably Smoot as well. Ryan Clark was reputed to be ST's buddy and we let him go--not to save money--but to add a big name to the defense. I'm not going to pass on Archuleta one way or another, but why not keep a clubhouse guy around if he's passable on the field? I've never heard of Steven Jackson before this article, so I'm not going to call for his head. But the separate meetings for safeties and cornerbacks sounds pretty ridiculous to me, even if I am an amateur. Regardless of who's to blame, it's clear that the operation is totally dysfunctional. Gibbs needs to reign these characters in--it's his job. What about bringing Charley Casserly back? We've seen around the league how little success coaches have as general managers. Now the league has proof (in the 'Skins) that it's even worse when multiple coaches are playing GM for their own little fiefdoms. Casserly and Joe built some winners together in the past and maybe refocusing these coaches on game planning would produce better results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banks979 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 This was a facinating read-thank you to whoever posted this first. I wouldn't take everthing in the article as gospel truth, but it has pretty much confirmed what was already mentioned about GW (massive ego/arrogance). If even 10% of the incidents mentioned in this article are true GW needs to get the hell out of Washington immediately. Even if the entire thing is a bald-faced fabrication, taking what was close to the #1 defense in the league in every category, losing all of the key players through personel mismanagement, and clearly being outcoached in every game so far this year is still grounds for dismissal. Bye Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 'largely built on one anonymous source'.....thats kind of a compelling detail, don't you think Todd? I'm not saying there aren't elements of truth in that story, but truth is far more subjective than most believe around here. I'm amazed that nearly every comment in this thread seems to absolute acceptance of the contents of the that article as 'the truth'.You guys should know better. Never believe all that you read. The only people that know are the ones knee-deep in this mess, and even they likely don't universally agree on 'whats going on'. If the author really knew the facts, he wouldn't have to rely on a single anonymous source (one who's motivations we cannot even pretend to know) for his information. I don't doubt there are problems. You don't find yourself where we are as a team after a promising last year without there being problems. I just doubt this article paints the whole picture. For the record, I really like Gregg Williams, and I refuse to sell him down the river based on this kind of article. It certainly is a compelling detail, which is why I mentioned it. There are two many verifiable specific details to make one believe it's a total shine job. The information about the safety coach, the split reading, the abnormal coaching of safeties. The arrogance of Gregg Williams and Dale Lindsay has been well documented over the last several years. The details about run stunts and schemes are just simply too specific, and everything goes towards painting a cohesive overall explanation of our catastrophic drop in performance on that side of the ball. I gave the d-coaches a huge amount of slack in player personnel issues based on 2004 performances, and that slack was used up with the swap of Clark for AA, coming after the loss of Pierce and Smoot, Harris for Kenny Wright, etc. Given Williams' past history in Buffalo, it seems the most reasonable believable scenario given all available information. You cut coaches slack for being in their first year, not their third year with high priced free agent acquisitions. There is simply far too much to explain away. I can't think of a single player on the defense who is even performing AS well as he did last year, let alone any better. That's not a random coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meek Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Just to clarify, it appears that the sentiment of this article is shared by more than just one player. For one thing, the anonymous source points out that it was ANOTHER player who made the comment to Jackson at halftime of the TB game. AA definitely wouldn't have the clout to pull this move given his current status. As far as the identity of the anonymous source, Rogers is still a youngster who doesn't appear to do a lot of media interaction and probably wouldn't have as complete a grasp on the whole situation as the informant, ST would rather swallow rat poison than talk to the media or personally call out a coach. My guess is that AA is the primary source and SS was the one who called out Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 There are two many verifiable specific details to make one believe it's a total shine job. no it's not, it's common general knowledge any football fan would know, hardly compelling evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 no it's not, it's common general knowledge any football fan would know, hardly compelling evidence. Re-read the article bubba. You didn't know over 50% of what was in that article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 It is a compelling detail - but this isn't something that came out of the blue. It's not a single source saying things for the first time. Williams arrogant attitude concerning player decisions have been talked about for more then a year. His treatment of players that fall out of favor came to everyone's attention during the Arrington drama. The idea that it's the coaching and not the players and that all of them can be replaced has been debated on this site because that the attitude the coaches have. So while this single article was mostly built on a single source, the general theme here has been around for more then a year. This is simply the latest bit of news concerning it. Completely agree. Most of what was said isn't news in general other than specifics like the secondary not meeting together (WTF???). This all kinds of fits into what we see from the players and the defense as a whole. Is it the only thing that is going on? No, there have been injuries, etc. But we all know that much of the defense looks to have lost its fire and passion. Why would they all seem to do that? Most people here have thought for a long time that letting Pierce, Smooth, etc go was a terrible idea and that Williams had the "anyone can fit into my scheme and it will still work" mentality. We all knew Williams was an ***hole sometimes who seemed to take a very rough or nasty direction at coaching his players (calling out certain players and having players he doesn't even talk to if they fall out of favor with him). How long do you really think that sort of arrogant, mean, disrespectful attitude towards his players is going to fly before they just start to get sick of it? Not just the ones it is directed at, but the others as well. It is a poison to team chemistry and I think in 2004 the scheme was fresh, we had great players, and they took it in stride; also at that time Williams hadn't had 2 years and a multimillion deal to make him think he was God. He had been fired from his past head coaching job and had to have been a bit more humble as far as thinking he and only he knew the key to everything. Then he started with letting key players go and next year we were still very good but had slipped. Now look where we are. At the very very least, please get rid of Jackson and get a real safety coach...not just someone Williams wants to "throw a bone to". But to be honest at this point I wouldn't be beyond calling for Williams to be on his keaster. Sure getting rid of Jackson would help stabilize the secondary, but it isn't going to change the way Williams coaches, his stubborn ways, or his ego and the way the players sound like they are increasingly seeing him. Yeah a new defensive staff would be a pain in the *** but at least if we had a great DC who had passion and knew how to work with players and understood that it takes players and a scheme to win on defense I think we would see a huge and immediate increase in production and fire in this defense. It certainly has happened before. I know you can't compare NFL to College but look at Michigan's defense last year and this year. Last year they had problems all over the place and weren't playing well...much of it pointed to the coaching. They replaced their defensive coach, have pretty much the same guys as last year, but are easily in the top 5 defenses this year, if not top 3. They were listless last year and now they are fast, aggressive, extremely physical, and have great chemistry. What it took was a great coach who knew who could do what and how to motivate the players other than yelling at them if they did something he didn't like. Yes the players are professionals. Yes they get paid to do what they do. Yes, they should not be babied. But they are still human beings. They don't suddenly become robots after college who simply shrug off whatever insults or slights are thrown their way. One of the reasons Gibbs is/was a great coach is that he knew this, and he knew that different players respond differently to different motivators or reinforcement (whether it be positive or negative) and knew how to get the most out of his players. Williams simply doesn't have this, as all he seems to do is be an ***hole and ***** and call people out when they screw up or he thinks they screwed up. You gotta have a balance. Lastly I think the whole thing about Sean Taylor was one of the most depressing things I have ever read. I can't believe they took this guy who is probably one of the most rawly talented safeties to ever come out of college and have managed to take away most of the things that made him so great. No wonder he seems to be dragging as well. The thing in the article about how he has now tuned out coaches and players says so much. I hate to say it but unless things change very quickly I see him wanting to leave the Skins as soon as his contract runs up. He is my favorite player and I can't stand thinking of the Skins without him...but I don't think I could really blame him. Something has to give. And soon. The only bright spot in that article was the portion saying that Snyder definitely knows about this stuff. Lets see what happens in the offseason. HTTR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 It is really 2006 or 1996. This is Norv Turner type stuff. Wow. A lot of issues, but it can be fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 It makes sense to me. Can you dispute any of the points in the article?It has nothing to do with smartness or dumbness. It has to do with a now disfunctional coaching staff. a coaching staff doesn't suddenly forget how to coach in one season especially the ones with the pedigree as the Skins have people believe what they want, no real evidence needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Well, what about having the last ranked defense in the NFC after three years at the helm. Three years to put in his system and chose the players. Is that enough to sell him down the river? Take a chill pill. No one's been rougher on this team over the past 6 weeks than I have. I'm not clueless as to the problems we're experiencing. My point is, you can't define 'arrogance'. Win, and arrogance morphs into 'confidence', 'brashness', 'strength of character, 'conviction', and 'aggressive decision-making'. Lose, and you're full of hubris, 'bullheaded', 'intransigent', '****y', and 'stubborn'. I think it was a mistake to let Pierce walk. Smoot, not as much, but its arguable. And I think its fair to say Williams overestimated the strength of his schemes and underestimated the value of those guys. Arrington is one of the reasons I put less stock in this article than I might. Because I saw, firsthand and up close, what a selfish, ignorant 'me me me' player he was. I have no doubt he thought Williams, Lindsey, Blache, all the defensive coaches were 'arrogant' - because they dared to tell Lavar he needed to do what THEY were telling him to do. In Arrington's book, that makes you arrogant. So I think WHO is saying what is just as important as whats being said. I've learned you cannot trust what you read, and you're a fool if you think otherwise. Is something wrong with this team? Uh....well, as they say in the Marine Corps, yeah, thats a no-****ter. I don't think laying it all on the 'arrogance' of a couple coaches based on one or two 'anonymous' sources is necessarily 'the truth'. But if it makes you all feel better, knock yourselves out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Gregg Williams, thanks for the work you've done. However, it is clear that you have to go if the team is going to move forward. Gregg Williams, please resign after the season, and Steven Jackson, please, follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Re-read the article bubba. You didn't know over 50% of what was in that article. Todd, I was referring to the points that used as the basis of the other points The stuff that "I don't know" neither do you or anyone else... people are taking it for granted it's true, despite and real evidence, or logic Joe Gibbs doesn't allow things to get out of hand, in fact anyone with a little knowledge of Joe Gibbs, and his history, know that no way in hell that most of that could happen, even in a lesser degree Again, nothing more than kicking a dog when he's down article, based on hear say... and becuase people who where the heart on their sleeves let there emotions believe some stuff, that their brain would laugh about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Ummm, ouch, babe. He's got some darn good inside info in that piece. Very well written and very insightful. You rarely get to the nitty gritty like that regarding the inner workings of an NFL franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONTEY Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 It is really 2006 or 1996. This is Norv Turner type stuff. Wow. A lot of issues, but it can be fixed Norv Turner stuff. That scares me along with the article. Another reason I'm convinced Gibbs will leave at season's end. Damn will this team ever get out from under this dark cloud? Crap makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I don't think laying it all on the 'arrogance' of a couple coaches based on one or two 'anonymous' sources is necessarily 'the truth'.But if it makes you all feel better, knock yourselves out. Bingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I pretty much agree with your take on all related matters in this thread, John, and I admire you still have the will to engage in general. Mine is currently absent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskin81 Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Its time for Joe Gibbs to reclaim what is rightfully his. This is like the mafia families in New York back in the 60s. The older bosses tried to slip into a semi retired role. The younger more arrogant soldiers that took over treated the younger soldiers like crap and evetually rean the organizations into the ground. Its time for Joe Gibbs to do what hes always done the best: Take controll of his team and unite them. Sounds to me like the unity that propelled us into the playoffs last year is gone. Like George Michael said the coaches and players that arent on board with Gibbs need to get the you know what out of DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Its pretty clear that we're at the point where all we care about as fans is finding someone to burn in effigy. I understand it. I'm bitter over the steps back we've taken this season. I'm frankly tired as hell of buying into my team's promise again and again, year after year, only to see them collapse. I'm really sick of it. But while I hold Snyder and the coaches accountable for our wasted season, I think players are always responsible to a much larger degree for success and failure on the field. These coaches, every damn one of them, have PROVEN they know how to coach and can get the job done at the NFL level. They're not getting it done this year, but I'm not ready to bail on all of them yet. And I'd love to know who the players running off to the press to ***** and fingerpoint are....I'm guessing some of them are the ones Coach Gibbs was talking stridently to earlier this week. That didn't take long, did it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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