The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

Now it just feels like guys are expected to give sermons, or earth shattering promos. It's like either you're great, or you're terrible.

 

Here are some guys who wouldn't be able to survive in the 10 page script days:

 

1. Any Von Erich because I'm pretty sure they were all illiterate

2. Rick Steamboat

3. Bobby Eaton

4. Andre the Giant

5. Rick Martel

6. Greg Valentine

7. Lex Luger

8. Rick Steiner

9. Sting (in his younger days)

10. Ricky Morton

11. Robert Gibson

[Mr. Sinister]

Here are some guys who wouldn't be able to survive in the 10 page script days:

 

1. Any Von Erich because I'm pretty sure they were all illiterate

2. Rick Steamboat

3. Bobby Eaton

4. Andre the Giant

5. Rick Martel

6. Greg Valentine

7. Lex Luger

8. Rick Steiner

9. Sting (in his younger days)

10. Ricky Morton

11. Robert Gibson

 

Thats kind of some of the beef I had with the attitude era. So much was based on realism at that point. Bret Hart was kind of the last bastion of hope in terms of actually portraying a character, and he basically became the cheesy guy that nobody liked. I think he was the main one (though he settled into the role) that struggled initially being a heel, because that simply was not his character, and was not him.

 

A lot of guys caught breaks I think, because a lot of their "Characters" were really them, but on steroids. Its an easier transition were still kind of being you. Even the Undertaker (who didnt need a ton of mic talent while he was the "Deadman". He could just walk silently to the ring, and talk in a creepy, monotone voice) surprised everyone with his "American Badass/Big Evil" mic skills, but I dont think it was really a gimmick. I think that was truly who he was.

 

I think the one guy that shined was Kane. Here's a guy who basically started the character as a mute, with a mask and the voice thing, but morphed into a maskless, psychtic serial killerish character, who gave bone chilling promos. It was awesome. I always thought it was funny that one of the best mic guys (at least then) was forced to wear a mask and not talk for so long.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Mr. Sinister

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Thats kind of some of the beef I had with the attitude era. So much was based on realism at that point. Bret Hart was kind of the last bastion of hope in terms of actually portraying a character, and he basically became the cheesy guy that nobody liked. I think he was the main one (though he settled into the role) that struggled initially being a heel, because that simply was not his character, and was not him.

 

A lot of guys caught breaks I think, because a lot of their "Characters" were really them, but on steroids. Its an easier transition were still kind of being you. Even the Undertaker (who didnt need a ton of mic talent while he was the "Deadman". He could just walk silently to the ring, and talk in a creepy, monotone voice) surprised everyone with his "American Badass/Big Evil" mic skills, but I dont think it was really a gimmick. I think that was truly who he was.

 

I think the one guy that shined was Kane. Here's a guy who basically started the character as a mute, with a mask and the voice thing, but morphed into a maskless, psychtic serial killerish character, who gave bone chilling promos. It was awesome. I always thought it was funny that one of the best mic guys (at least then) was forced to wear a mask and not talk for so long.

 

I actually think the Attitude Era was pretty good in terms of what "characters" should be. It was certainly better than TL Hopper or The Goon or whatever the hell was going in the early 90s. All the best wrestling characters tend to be the wrestler with his real personality amplified. Ric Flair really did spend too much money on cars and hotels and really did party with attractive women until 5 in the morning. Steve Austin really was a big ol' redneck from East Texas who didn't like being told what to do. The Rock really was a supremely talented, ****y guy.

 

I think modern WWE has gotten "gimmicks" confused with "characters." The Undertaker is a gimmick. It's the greatest gimick of all time, but it's a gimmick. Kane is a gimmick. Val Venis was a gimmick. Goldust was a gimmick. Abdullah the Butcher was a gimmick.

 

I'm probably getting way too analytical for pro freaking wrestling, but bear with me. Here is an easy way to view it: Cactus Jack was a character; Mankind was a gimmick. Foley eventually blended the two of them together, but he was also incredibly talented.

 

Where I think WWE has gotten confused is that they think gimmicks and characters are the same thing. They think Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels were gimmicks. So they try to teach Bryan Daniel how to act like Bryan Daniel. In my opinion, the person that should know what is best for Daniel Bryan to say in any situation is Daniel Bryan.

 

By the way, I'm not putting down gimmicks. Gimmicks are really important to pro wrestling. But you need both. And in fairness, they sometimes get it right. The Wyatts are gimmicks and from what I can tell, they are doing a good job with them. 

 

I think gimmicks probably need a lot more backstage control, especially at first. Characters should have more freedom almost from the beginning. Eventually, both should really be the complete responsibility of the wrestler.

 

One other quick thing is this: Gimmicks tend to have a shelf-life unless you evolve them. Or have the ability to move around to different markets. Abdullah the Butcher did the same act for 30 years because he could bail out after 3 months when his act (which had a really short shelf-life) got stale. I can't imagine a character like Abby today; can you imagine some dude showing up on Raw 48 times a year for ten years stabbing dudes in the head with a fork? On the other hand, I would really like to see some dude stabbing John Cena in the head with a fork.

 

Why has no one stabbed John Cena in the head with a fork?

[Big Weirdo]

Every time they do the Slammys I always think of Owen Hart who I think was more talented than his brother and is one of the under appreciated heels of his day.

BTW Triple H vs Lesnar from Extreme Rules is nominated by Punk vs Lesnar isn't for match of the year. OOOOKAY.

I actually think the Attitude Era was pretty good in terms of what "characters" should be. It was certainly better than TL Hopper or The Goon or whatever the hell was going in the early 90s. All the best wrestling characters tend to be the wrestler with his real personality amplified. Ric Flair really did spend too much money on cars and hotels and really did party with attractive women until 5 in the morning. Steve Austin really was a big ol' redneck from East Texas who didn't like being told what to do. The Rock really was a supremely talented, ****y guy.

I think modern WWE has gotten "gimmicks" confused with "characters." The Undertaker is a gimmick. It's the greatest gimick of all time, but it's a gimmick. Kane is a gimmick. Val Venis was a gimmick. Goldust was a gimmick. Abdullah the Butcher was a gimmick.

I'm probably getting way too analytical for pro freaking wrestling, but bear with me. Here is an easy way to view it: Cactus Jack was a character; Mankind was a gimmick. Foley eventually blended the two of them together, but he was also incredibly talented.

Where I think WWE has gotten confused is that they think gimmicks and characters are the same thing. They think Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels were gimmicks. So they try to teach Bryan Daniel how to act like Bryan Daniel. In my opinion, the person that should know what is best for Daniel Bryan to say in any situation is Daniel Bryan.

By the way, I'm not putting down gimmicks. Gimmicks are really important to pro wrestling. But you need both. And in fairness, they sometimes get it right. The Wyatts are gimmicks and from what I can tell, they are doing a good job with them.

I think gimmicks probably need a lot more backstage control, especially at first. Characters should have more freedom almost from the beginning. Eventually, both should really be the complete responsibility of the wrestler.

One other quick thing is this: Gimmicks tend to have a shelf-life unless you evolve them. Or have the ability to move around to different markets. Abdullah the Butcher did the same act for 30 years because he could bail out after 3 months when his act (which had a really short shelf-life) got stale. I can't imagine a character like Abby today; can you imagine some dude showing up on Raw 48 times a year for ten years stabbing dudes in the head with a fork? On the other hand, I would really like to see some dude stabbing John Cena in the head with a fork.

Why has no one stabbed John Cena in the head with a fork?

That's why Punk is so good at what he does. He is straight edge and especially when he is a heel he plays that up to the nth degree. They should have Bryan do that but with Veganism.

All the best wrestlers are themselves turned all the way up. It's always been that way. I remember Ric Flair saying he would buy a new suit every time they did a taping because he didn't want to be seen in the same clothes ever.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Big Weirdo

[Gallen5862]

Some other interesting Charecters were Jimmy "The BoogyWoogy Man" Vailent and the Junkyard Dog. I also use to Weaver with his Weaver sleeper and Mr Wrestleing 1 and 2, Ric Flair stole his Chop move from Chief Wahoo Mcdaniels.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Valiant - in his later years at least - was the perfect mid-card act. He was perpetually over, despite being pretty awful in the ring, and you could just feed him bums managed by the equally terrible Paul Jones for years. That Jones-Valiant feud never ended, and the stakes were never higher than a hair cut. There might be something to be learned from that, but I'll be damned if I know what it is.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm pretty much caught up on the Austin podcasts now. It's annoying that the Cornette podcast is apparently lost to history along with the Regal one. Two hours of Steve and Cornette talking about punches, tag team psychology, and promos is pretty much my idea of porn.

 

The most interesting one was actually the Wade Keller one. I've never really read Keller and didn't know that he grew up on old AWA. It's fascinating to me that any wrestling you watched at age 10 is the best wrestling ever. I think the AWA is death, and he thinks that Greg Gagne gave some of the best promos in history.

 

Anyway, I didn't watch a second of Raw. Did I miss anything?

[DM72]

I never got into the AWA. Never liked it.

Valiant - in his later years at least - was the perfect mid-card act. He was perpetually over, despite being pretty awful in the ring, and you could just feed him bums managed by the equally terrible Paul Jones for years. That Jones-Valiant feud never ended, and the stakes were never higher than a hair cut. There might be something to be learned from that, but I'll be damned if I know what it is.

Lol...Valiant, I can still remember him kissing Tony Schiavone and during one of his promos asking how to spell K-Mart. He was a character. Edited December 11, 2013 by DM72

[Big Weirdo]

I'm pretty much caught up on the Austin podcasts now. It's annoying that the Cornette podcast is apparently lost to history along with the Regal one. Two hours of Steve and Cornette talking about punches, tag team psychology, and promos is pretty much my idea of porn.

The most interesting one was actually the Wade Keller one. I've never really read Keller and didn't know that he grew up on old AWA. It's fascinating to me that any wrestling you watched at age 10 is the best wrestling ever. I think the AWA is death, and he thinks that Greg Gagne gave some of the best promos in history.

Anyway, I didn't watch a second of Raw. Did I miss anything?

They had their fake wrestling awards last night. Nothing to see. I think Daniel Bryan won superstar of the year. Not sure about the rest.

[KDawg]

The ending was interesting.

 

They did an "ascension ceremony" where Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Miz, Daniel Bryan, HBK, HHH, Steph, Show, Del Rio, Ziggler and others I'm probably missing were in the ring to see the two titles raised above the ring and Orton/Cena cutting promos.

 

HHH started to talk and was interrupted by "DANIEL BRYAN!" chants for a good minute or two (the show was in Seattle, which is basically home for Bryan) and then another minute or two of "YES!" chants.

 

Anyways, the rest of the segment was predictable, until the end. Cena/Orton shook hands. It broke down into a brawl. Punk and some others got Orton separated from Cena, then Orton pushed Punk. Punk came back and started elbowing Orton. HHH got pissed and TOSSED Punk off of Orton, then went to yell at Orton.

 

Punk got up, waited for Trips to turn and laid him out with a right hand. Crowd went nuts.

 

BOOM! Sweet Chin Music to Punk by HBK.

 

BOOM! Running knee from Bryan to HBK! Orton up and goes for the RKO but Bryan pushes him off and into Steph, who gets knocked down and looks like she's out.

 

HHH runs in and checks on her, sees shes hurt and gets pissed off, picks Orton off the mat and Pedigrees him. Then Cena, HHH, and Kane help Steph to her feet.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

The ending was interesting.

 

They did an "ascension ceremony" where Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Miz, Daniel Bryan, HBK, HHH, Steph, Show, Del Rio, Ziggler and others I'm probably missing were in the ring to see the two titles raised above the ring and Orton/Cena cutting promos.

 

HHH started to talk and was interrupted by "DANIEL BRYAN!" chants for a good minute or two (the show was in Seattle, which is basically home for Bryan) and then another minute or two of "YES!" chants.

 

Anyways, the rest of the segment was predictable, until the end. Cena/Orton shook hands. It broke down into a brawl. Punk and some others got Orton separated from Cena, then Orton pushed Punk. Punk came back and started elbowing Orton. HHH got pissed and TOSSED Punk off of Orton, then went to yell at Orton.

 

Punk got up, waited for Trips to turn and laid him out with a right hand. Crowd went nuts.

 

BOOM! Sweet Chin Music to Punk by HBK.

 

BOOM! Running knee from Bryan to HBK! Orton up and goes for the RKO but Bryan pushes him off and into Steph, who gets knocked down and looks like she's out.

 

HHH runs in and checks on her, sees shes hurt and gets pissed off, picks Orton off the mat and Pedigrees him. Then Cena, HHH, and Kane help Steph to her feet.

LOL, I was just about to post this, just finished watching it on DVR. The show sucked, but the ending was great.  Now.....is it all mind games with the Authority being against Randy or are they going to back him anyhow and help him become the unified champ?

 

I think they back Orton and he wins.  I was sitting here watching and we all know that Ric Flair is the all-time champ holding 16 world championship belts.  Cena is already at 14 and Randy Orton at 12.  Cena, weather we like him or not, ain't going anywhere anytime soon.  Him winning would put him within one of Rick Flair.  Then what?  They won't let him win again for years or ever?  

 

They need to bring in more stars and start having them compete and win titles, spread it out a little bit.  Otherwise, we are going to have Cena with 20+ at this pace.  I know they left him out of the picture for a while, but they need to slow their role.  Flairs total number of titles is like the Undertakers Wrestlemania streak.  

 

I know streaks are made to be broken, I just don't want to have it be Cena this quickly in his career.  

[KDawg]

That segment was interesting, because it reintroduced HHH/Punk as a rivalry. Gave us a reason for a Punk/HBK confrontation. Orton/Bryan interacted. Bryan/HBK interacted. HHH/Orton interacted. Very interesting stuff.

[Mr. Sinister]

Dosn't matter if he gets 30, everyone knows that Ric Flair's titles meant a lot more.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Dosn't matter if he gets 30, everyone knows that Ric Flair's titles meant a lot more.

I know, but as loyal as peeps are in the business, and the relationship that Flair has with HHH within the business and outside, you would think they wouldn't want another wrestler in his lifetime to pass him up, or even tie him.  

 

Of course for all I know, Cena could be on the inner circle and get Flairs full blessing.  

Edited December 11, 2013 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[DM72]

I know, but as loyal as peeps are in the business, and the relationship that Flair has with HHH within the business and outside, you would think they wouldn't want another wrestler in his lifetime to pass him up, or even tie him.  

 

Of course for all I know, Cena could be on the inner circle and get Flairs full blessing.  

 

You should know  by now, pro wrestling as we knew it is dead. Title reigns stop having true meaning by the late 80's.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

A) The number for Flair's title reigns is a fake as anything else. It's probably closer to 20 thanks to random double switches that happened on house shows back in the 80s.

 

They don't really care. They make fun of AJ Lee for being a "belt mark."

 

I watched the final segment last night. It was interesting - though the psychology was all over the map. Once again, though, let us stop to appreciate HHH who ended the segment standing over one of the two champions while his music played.

 

I would totally watch HHH/HBK vs. Daniel/Punk though.

[KDawg]

I don't know. I don't think "normal" wrestling fans give a crap that HHH is featured. I realize it frustrates the "informed" fan that the guy running things is scripted so strong, but most people don't care.

 

It honestly doesn't even bother me, and its one of the last things I'm concerned with for the overall product. *shrug*

[CrypticVillain]

I liked Cena's Promo at the end though. That whole segment was good. Probably would have liked it Orton played more to the crowd, but it is what it is.

 

I still think HHH ends up with the title. Don't know how, but he's going to have that title.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't know. I don't think "normal" wrestling fans give a crap that HHH is featured. I realize it frustrates the "informed" fan that the guy running things is scripted so strong, but most people don't care.

 

It honestly doesn't even bother me, and its one of the last things I'm concerned with for the overall product. *shrug*

 

I think the "normal" fan notices it. Normal fans eventually noticed that the NWO pretty much won every confrontation they had. And I think they notice that HHH never really loses. Monday was not a big deal, but it is another small reminder of this.

 

The basic psychology of HHH is wrong right now. You can either be a badass heel or a chicken**** heel. You can't really be both. HHH wants to be a badass heel when he is physical and a chicken**** (sorta) when he is an executive and it gets all muddled.

 

You know when this happened before? Everytime Bischoff decided to get in the ring. He was a chicken**** hiding between Hogan and the NWO and his own executive power. And then he would get in the ring, and he is suddenly a karate master holding his own with Zbysko and Flair.

 

You would say to yourself, "All right. Tonight Eric is going to get the **** kicked out of him....Oh wait, he's actually a really good fighter too? Well......damn......"

 

It would be like if Ricky Morton got five minutes in a cage alone with Jim Cornette and suddenly Cornette was a master shooter.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[KDawg]

I think the "normal" fan notices it. Normal fans eventually noticed that the NWO pretty much won every confrontation they had. And I think they notice that HHH never really loses. Monday was not a big deal, but it is another small reminder of this.

 

The basic psychology of HHH is wrong right now. You can either be a badass heel or a chicken**** heel. You can't really be both. HHH wants to be a badass heel when he is physical and a chicken**** (sorta) when he is an executive and it gets all muddled.

 

You know when this happened before? Everytime Bischoff decided to get in the ring. He was a chicken**** hiding between Hogan and the NWO and his own executive power. And then he would get in the ring, and he is suddenly a karate master holding his own with Zbysko and Flair.

 

You would say to yourself, "All right. Tonight Eric is going to get the **** kicked out of him....Oh wait, he's actually a really good fighter too? Well......damn......"

 

It would be like if Ricky Morton got five minutes in a cage alone with Jim Cornette and suddenly Cornette was a master shooter.

 

I hesitate to go head to head with you in a discussion on wrestling, because you'll likely kick my butt... However, I'm going to anyways

 

There is a stark difference between HHH and Eric Bischoff.

 

HHH IS a badass. His character is a badass. He is recently "retired". It's not like he lost all of his mojo. He's still relatively young, too.

 

Eric Bischoff was an announcer. The fact they built him as a wimp and then had him as some kung fu master was ridiculous. HHH is a believable badass. And to be honest, I don't think they're scripting him to be a chicken****. Rather, I think they're scripting him to have an internal conflict with himself. On one hand, he's an executive. He was "removed" because he was too physically involved/not protecting the talent once. So he's got to deal with the inner conflict. Does he get physically involved like he'd like to? Or does he sit back and not do what his instincts tell him to do?

 

On RAW, he got involved. Steph was involved, and he said, "to hell with the conflict". Pedigree.

 

HHH's character actually has quite a bit of depth.

 

He's all about what's best for business. I don't know that he's truly even a heel. He's been booked as a heel as it pertains to Bryan/Show, but he's been a face in some situations as well. He's definitely more heel than face, but then last night he pedigreed Orton and didn't blink an eye when Cena helped Steph (which ultimately could cause a confrontation between HHH/Cena much like the Hogan/Savage issue over Elizabeth somewhere down the line). His character lines are pretty blurred at the moment.

[Big Weirdo]

Triple H is the king of making it about himself. Type most overrated wrestler and heel in the last decade or so. I'd love for him to win the unified title at TLC. Have him come in, pin Cena and Orton for ****s and giggles, then climb the ladder and grab the belts.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

He's all about what's best for business. I don't know that he's truly even a heel. He's been booked as a heel as it pertains to Bryan/Show, but he's been a face in some situations as well. He's definitely more heel than face, but then last night he pedigreed Orton and didn't blink an eye when Cena helped Steph (which ultimately could cause a confrontation between HHH/Cena much like the Hogan/Savage issue over Elizabeth somewhere down the line). His character lines are pretty blurred at the moment.

 

I actually think that's what they are trying to do with his character in theory. And that could be interesting. I just don't think they are really pulling it off. And the big problem is I'm not really sure how this storyline ends. Does it end with HHH coming back to wrestle to "prove that he is still the man he used to be?" To protect his woman? Do we even want to see that?

 

Like I said, the psychology is all over the place. Like, Stephanie for instance. Don't we actually want to see her get knocked out? She's been a real **** for the last few months. Or are we supposed to be upset that she got knocked down and sympathize with her and HHH?

 

The closer on Monday was really really well-executed and some interesting stuff going on. But I'm not sure it sets up anything anyone really wants - unless Cena becomes HHH's "face of the WWE" which means we finally get a semi heel turn.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[KDawg]

I actually think that's what they are trying to do with his character in theory. And that could be interesting. I just don't think they are really pulling it off. And the big problem is I'm not really sure how this storyline ends. Does it end with HHH coming back to wrestle to "prove that he is still the man he used to be?" To protect his woman? Do we even want to see that?

 

Like I said, the psychology is all over the place. Like, Stephanie for instance. Don't we actually want to see her get knocked out? She's been a real **** for the last few months. Or are we supposed to be upset that she got knocked down and sympathize with her and HHH?

 

The closer on Monday was really really well-executed and some interesting stuff going on. But I'm not sure it sets up anything anyone really wants - unless Cena becomes HHH's "face of the WWE" which means we finally get a semi heel turn.

 

I think it's becoming clear that HHH is going to be involved somehow.

 

It could be that:

 

-He helps Orton and screws Cena over, which doesn't do much storyline wise.

 Or

-He helps Cena and he and Cena forge an alliance.

 

With HHH being such a tweener, Cena wouldn't officially be a heel. He'd just be aligned with the Authority. That's their way around the whole heel thing. Cena will still be Cena just aligned with HHH/Steph.

 

And I definitely think the payoff is some spat between Cena/HHH over Stephanie. (Although, with that Total Divas show, that one will be hard to believe unless Nikki Bella is involved in the storyline as well, but if they don't act at odds on Total Divas, that's a total miss, too.)

 

I don't know what's going to happen, but I think that's the beauty of the way WWE is booking this. Something that is unpredictable, versus always knowing exactly what's going to happen.

 

I like that.

 

I just hope they continue to make it intriguing. They could still blow it.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

I don't know what's going to happen, but I think that's the beauty of the way WWE is booking this. Something that is unpredictable, versus always knowing exactly what's going to happen.

 

I like that.

 

 

I'm going to be honest with you: I don't really like unpredictable storylines in wrestling. That leads to Russo-style booking where everything is a swerve.

 

Here's a predictable storyline: Daniel Bryan is an indie darling who works his way to the WWE. The powers that be think he is too small to really make it above the mid-card, but with talent, tenacity, and fan support he makes it to the main event. Where he faces a corporate backed monster and is promised that a guy like him can never lead the WWE. But with heart, tenacity and fan support (and maybe an unexpected assist from someone like CM Punk), he wins. And then the powers that be try to find the right guy to stop him.

 

You know what is an unexpected storyline? Hogan actually beating Sting at Starrcade.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[KDawg]

I'm going to be honest with you: I don't really like unpredictable storylines in wrestling. That leads to Russo-style booking where everything is a swerve.

 

Here's a predictable storyline: Daniel Bryan is an indie darling who works his way to the WWE. The powers that be think he is too small to really make it above the mid-card, but with talent, tenacity, and fan support he makes it to the main event. Where he faces a corporate backed monster and is promised that a guy like him can never lead the WWE. But with heart, tenacity and fan support (and maybe an unexpected assist from someone like CM Punk), he wins. And then the powers that be try to find the right guy to stop him.

 

You know what is an unexpected storyline? Hogan actually beating Sting at Starrcade.

 

I think there's a place for both in wrestling. Going overboard Russo style isn't the kind of unpredictable I mean.

 

I like your predictable Bryan storyline.

 

But I think good wrestling needs a little of everything.