The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[CrypticVillain]

Man, rough crowd lol

[Gallen5862]

Were you drunk when you posted this?

I was just trying to come up with some interesting senarios. They have to be planing something since Orton keeps saying he was the best of any of the former champions. That could lead to HHH or some of the other former Champions putting him in his place. You would think HHh would want to also proteck Flairs record as a 16 time Champion. The Rock also still has his return championship match from Wrestlemania. One other interesting thing would be if they could get Sting or have the TNA champion defect and clhallenge    the WWE/World heavyweight Unifed Champion.

 

The other explaination would be that the Writers are not keeping up with all the loose ends that they created. 

Edited December 4, 2013 by Gallen5862

[Big Weirdo]

Gallen please! Stop! Sting defecting from TNA to challenge for the championship? Is it 2006 in your world man?

I'm not trying to crap on you but come on man.

Also enough with the Rock and his rematch clause. He isn't coming back. He makes more money now than he ever did on the WWE.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Big Weirdo

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Gallen please! Stop! Sting defecting from TNA to challenge for the championship? Is it 2006 in your world man?

I'm not trying to crap on you but come on man.

Also enough with the Rock and his rematch clause. He isn't coming back. He makes more money now than he ever did on the WWE.

 

In all fairness, it is a little weird that Sting has never worked for McMahon. Can any major wrestler active since 1980 say that? I wouldn't hate Sting coming in once for a WrestleMania match against Undertaker.

 

Having said that, this guy seems to only know three wrestlers and they are all 60.

 

I don't think the issue with Rock is money. He got injured pretty badly in his last match. He has way too much to lose by getting hurt.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

sting wrestling at Mania is probably the only thing that would get me to watch wrestling for more than five seconds.

 

It's really weird. I couldn't tell you much of anything about current storylines cuz I don't watch but I spend my free time watching old WCW shows. I just finished up 1997 and am on to 98 lol

[Mr. Sinister]

I honestly didn't like seeing Rock wrestling like he was. Dude is a little bit older, and I'm willing to bet that he is over 300 pounds of Incredible Hulk muscle at this point. I mean, back when he was hitting his stride as a worker, he was in the 270 range, then slimmed down like a mofo when he hit Hollywood in the '00s. I mean he almost looked sick by Wrestlemania XX

 

Dude is so ****ing big, man. You can't really grasp how ginormous he is until you see him standing next to Vin Diesel, who is yoked himself. I would think that it sincredibly easy to get hurt when you're that big. It's almost like he takes a Bane Venom injection to the forehead.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I honestly didn't like seeing Rock wrestling like he was. Dude is a little bit older, and I'm willing to bet that he is over 300 pounds of Incredible Hulk muscle at this point. I mean, back when he was hitting his stride as a worker, he was in the 270 range, then slimmed down like a mofo when he hit Hollywood in the '00s. I mean he almost looked sick by Wrestlemania XX

 

Dude is so ****ing big, man. You can't really grasp how ginormous he is until you see him standing next to Vin Diesel, who is yoked himself. I would think that it sincredibly easy to get hurt when you're that big. It's almost like he takes a Bane Venom injection to the forehead.

SON...tell me about it.

 

The Rock's body has gone through a weird ass transformation during the years.

 

When he was in the corporation, he was a pudgy ass 270-280. Around the 2001-2002 era, he was tiny. Obviously he was still a big guy but damn, he couldn't have been more than 240. When he made the tooth fairy movie, he looked barely over 210.

 

I saw him live this year and that man could legit be 300 lbs of straight muscle. Insane. 

 

I love him but he's got to be on the gas

Unrelated but there is no question why WWE won the MNW. WCW's roster overall was wayyy weaker than the WWE's and their story lines sucked. 

 

Every Nitro I watch, it's nothing but the same **** over and over. Their biggest mistake was the whole Sting thing. When Nick Patrick botched the finish at Starrcade 97, it was over. 

[DM72]

sting wrestling at Mania is probably the only thing that would get me to watch wrestling for more than five seconds. It's really weird. I couldn't tell you much of anything about current storylines cuz I don't watch but I spend my free time watching old WCW shows. I just finished up 1997 and am on to 98 lol

Now you're talking my language. I know you should never say never in pro wrestling, but I don't think we'll ever see a timespan like we did between 96-98. Bottom was truely must see tv. I swear, people who really weren't wrestling fans were into the NWO vs WCW angle. I worked a summer job at an amusement park in WNY and those black.and white NWO shirts were all over the place. And WNY was never a hot bed for WCW up until the NWO arrived.

Boy I miss those days.

[Mr. Sinister]

I used to watch WCW only for the cruiserweight division. WCW catered to the oldhead heavyweights. I don't think it was the roster more than it was roster management. They had the talent to blow the doors off of WWE, but they had too many guys in positions of power who didnt deserve it, and buried the guys who had more to offer.

 

I remember how bad it got towards '99. That **** was so damn awful, lol. It was around that time when I became full WWE viewer (and even watched some ECW while they had the tv contract). They had a good 2 year run with that nWo storyline though. Completely changed wrestling history.

 

There would be no Atitude Era without the nWo. Vince would still be bringing out the Body Donnas and the Godwyns with their slop buckets and suspenders if it wasn't for them.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Now you're talking my language. I know you should never say never in pro wrestling, but I don't think we'll ever see a timespan like we did between 96-98. Bottom was truely must see tv. I swear, people who really weren't wrestling fans were into the NWO vs WCW angle. I worked a summer job at an amusement park in WNY and those black.and white NWO shirts were all over the place. And WNY was never a hot bed for WCW up until the NWO arrived.

Boy I miss those days.

My earliest memories of watching wrestling was Halloween Havoc 98 when I was five lol.

 

I will always hold onto those memories of watching during the 98-2001 era. Got to see a few Raws live as well. Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley, Jericho, Taker, Masked Kane, E&C, the Dudleyz, the HardyZ, etc. all on the same card. 

[DM72]

In all fairness, it is a little weird that Sting has never worked for McMahon. Can any major wrestler active since 1980 say that? I wouldn't hate Sting coming in once for a WrestleMania match against Undertaker. Having said that, this guy seems to only know three wrestlers and they are all 60. I don't think the issue with Rock is money. He got injured pretty badly in his last match. He has way too much to lose by getting hurt.

I'm proud of Sting for being the only major wrestler to not sell-out to Vince McMahon.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I used to watch WCW only for the cruiserweight division. WCW catered to the oldhead heavyweights. I don't think it was the roster more than it was roster management. They had the talent to blow the doors off of WWE, but they had too many guys in positions of power who didnt deserve it, and buried the guys who had more to offer.

 

I remember how bad it got towards '99. That **** was so damn awful, lol. It was around that time when I became full WWE viewer (and even watched some ECW while they had the tv contract). They had a good 2 year run with that nWo storyline though. Completely changed wrestling history.

 

There would be no Atitude Era without the nWo. Vince would still be bringing out the Body Donnas and the Godwyns with their slop buckets and suspenders if it wasn't for them.

It's crazy how the commentators would always talked about the fossil vs fossil main event instead of the great match in front of them. Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, the cruiserweights, Raven, and Konnan were criminally misused.

 

Hell, I'm watching Perry Saturn right now and he could have been a killer heel back in 98. He could wrestle his ass off and had a nice look.

 

But boy is it weird to see Steiner without blonde hair lol

[Big Weirdo]

In all fairness, it is a little weird that Sting has never worked for McMahon. Can any major wrestler active since 1980 say that? I wouldn't hate Sting coming in once for a WrestleMania match against Undertaker.

Having said that, this guy seems to only know three wrestlers and they are all 60.

I don't think the issue with Rock is money. He got injured pretty badly in his last match. He has way too much to lose by getting hurt.

The way I remember it was when WCW was bought out Sting had a chance to come over but he decided to sit out and keep his guaranteed money from Turner. But he said he wasn't sure he would be utilized correctly in WWE and that's why he's never worked for him because then he went onto to TNA.

The ship has sailed on Undertaker/Sting. That match would be stiffer than a morgue. Neither guy can carry a match anymore. The last few years Undertaker has been following the lead in his matches because his health isn't what it used to be.

[Big Weirdo]

I used to watch WCW only for the cruiserweight division. WCW catered to the oldhead heavyweights. I don't think it was the roster more than it was roster management. They had the talent to blow the doors off of WWE, but they had too many guys in positions of power who didnt deserve it, and buried the guys who had more to offer.

I remember how bad it got towards '99. That **** was so damn awful, lol. It was around that time when I became full WWE viewer (and even watched some ECW while they had the tv contract). They had a good 2 year run with that nWo storyline though. Completely changed wrestling history.

There would be no Atitude Era without the nWo. Vince would still be bringing out the Body Donnas and the Godwyns with their slop buckets and suspenders if it wasn't for them.

That's what sets Vince apart from every other promoter. He is willing to adapt and evolve and take risks. That's ultimately why WCW failed. They never pushed new talent. Vince gave guys like Stone Cold and Rock a chance to shine.

[IceDragon38]

That's what sets Vince apart from every other promoter. He is willing to adapt and evolve and take risks. That's ultimately why WCW failed. They never pushed new talent. Vince gave guys like Stone Cold and Rock a chance to shine.

The same Vince that's giving us Orton vs Cena for the millionth time?

While I would love Sting to go to WM it's not going to happen. WWE caters to the young audience, and the majority of them have no clue who Sting was. Plus he is too old now. And against the Undertaker? In 2004 would be awesome. 2014? No.

As far as the titles at WM, don't know who will be champion or will be contending, but I guarantee HHH will be involved. Dude can't keep himself out of the spotlight.

Edited December 4, 2013 by IceDragon38

[KDawg]

I think having one title is a great step in the right direction for the company. They'd be doing it now so that 2014 is 100% a one title year. Which is smart.

 

People have asked, "Well, WWE has some major matches built on two titles. Elimination Chamber and Money in the Bank being two of them. Do you scrap the Pay-per-views?"

 

No. You don't. Elimination Chamber can have 1-2  EC matches a year. One for the Undisputed Title, the other as a rivalry match. This year, that could easily be the Wyatts vs. The Shield.

 

Money in the Bank is easy, too. One for the contract for the Undisputed Title and one for a contract for the tag team titles.

 

With the Undisputed title returned, we now have a vacated spot for major storylines. Let the Intercontinental title return to prominence.

 

Should be an interesting 2014, they've set up a lot of opportunities to right a lot of wrongs.

 

PS: Does anyone else think John Cena is being scripted to be a candidate for a heel turn? I know we've had this talk before, and a lot of people don't think it will happen... But could it?

 

WWE is scripting Cena, like on RAW, to compliment HHH when he took shots at Orton. What are the chances that the Authority screws Orton at TLC and helps Cena win the Undisputed Title? Some would think that means that Orton becomes a face... I'd argue different. I think that means that Orton becomes a total loose cannon. Running around and randomly attacking anyone and everyone in his path. Just book him to be a total lunatic. Right now, the way he's booked, it's almost comical. Make him a monster. Cena is the "corportate champion".

 

Even Vince McMahon's involvement could be a mystery. Storyline wise, he could be the one who came up with the whole idea and he and HHH and Steph are all on the same page. Or, he could be totally opposed and the HHH/Vince war begins...

 

The problem with Cena turning is: Who becomes the face? CM Punk is the ultimate tweener. He can do it all. He can play all roles. Leave him in that role. The answer for who the face is is easy...

 

The WWE is teasing a heel turn for Bryan with him joining the Wyatt Family. Get him close to doing so, or have him do it, before he turns on Bray and continues his run as the ultimate face of the company. Vince McMahon says that he was wrong about Bryan and that the little guys can be the face of the company.

 

Now, the question there becomes, how do you handle Cena's charity work? It's an interesting question, but one I think they could work their way around if they needed to, and still keep Cena involved with that stuff. He could even sell it as him not having a problem with the kids, it's the adults that he dislikes. There are ways around it, and he could really be the ultimate heel that the WWE has kind of lacked.

[IceDragon38]

Cena will NEVER turn heel. As long as the audience is filled with his bright ass t-shirts there's no way the company will do it. His Thuganomics days showed that he could be a great one, but for economical reasons it won't happen.

[KDawg]

Cena will NEVER turn heel. As long as the audience is filled with his bright ass t-shirts there's no way the company will do it. His Thuganomics days showed that he could be a great one, but for economical reasons it won't happen.

 

Let's assume for just a second that he could. Forget the theory that he will never do it. I'm kind of in that camp myself... But I see the possibility shaping up... And if that is the payoff, with a HUGE push for Bryan to ultimately win the prize and be the face of the company, than a lot of "wrongs" by the WWE in the last few months are suddenly "righted".

[Big Weirdo]

He gives people Cena vs Orton because that's what makes money. Are you really going to discredit Vince 's success because you hate the fact that Orton and Cena are so popular? He wouldn't do it if it didn't make him cash. I think people forget he runs a business and the sad fact is while CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are great wrestlers they don't appeal to the most important demographic like Cena and Orton do.

I get it. It sucks they're wrestling for the ten millionth time. But until someone comes along and can be the new poster boy it's something you're going to have to live with.

And Cena isn't turning heel. Vince learned that lesson with Stone Cold. If he ever turns heel it will be when there is someone new who can take his spot.

[KDawg]

And Cena isn't turning heel. Vince learned that lesson with Stone Cold. If he ever turns heel it will be when there is someone new who can take his spot.

 

Bryan is RIDICULOUSLY over. Stupid over. He can take Cena's spot. And let's think outside the box... What would Cena turning heel change?

 

Would it change his overall crowd reaction? Probably not. He's already booed.

 

Would it change his merchandise sales? Maybe slightly, but he'll probably have more adult fans than ever before if he turns, so they may actually go up.

 

It would change his character a bit (he can keep his values). Maybe go back to the Thuganomics theme song. But really, not much would change except for the adults becoming more on board with Cena.

 

You know where Vince screwed up with Austin as a heel? he made him a comedy act rather than an aggressive, nasty Texas Rattlesnake.

Edited December 4, 2013 by KDawg

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

That's what sets Vince apart from every other promoter. He is willing to adapt and evolve and take risks. That's ultimately why WCW failed. They never pushed new talent. Vince gave guys like Stone Cold and Rock a chance to shine.

 

WCW failed because it was never one promoter's vision. It was a division of a massive corporation that eventually soured on professional wrestling. The only time it was ever truly successful was the one time it actually had one man really in charge (Bischoff had a vision, if a very narrow one).

 

WCW was a mess financially and creatively at the end of 2000, but it could still draw ratings. When Jamie Kellner decided that TBS and TNT would no longer broadcast pro wrestling, it was dead.

 

I don't know if I would go so far as to call Vince a risk-taker. Vince has succeeded because he had a vision for wrestling in the early 80s and was in the best position of all the other promoters to enact that vision. People seem to act like it was an accident that the one promotion to succeed nationally and internationally was the one promotion based in New York City and that had the strongest ties to Boston, Philadelphia, Toronto, Montreal, and Washington, DC. I think it was Dave Meltzer or Ole Anderson who wrote that Vince figured out before anyone else that one sell-out in Madison Square Garden meant more to the mainstream press than 50 sell-outs in the Omni or Reunion Arena or anywhere else.

 

Because Vince was in New York, he was able to pair up with NBC for Saturday Night's Main Event. Because he was able to pair up with NBC, he was suddenly able to take his tv production values into the 21st century. WWF always looked okay on tv. Certainly better than Georgia or Memphis. But, frankly, WCCW in Dallas looked better. Until NBC taught them how to do a national sports broadcast. After that, WWF's tv shows looked like Monday Night Football and everything else looked like a local knockoff of American Bandstand.

 

(Seriously, I love the old Crockett TBS show. That's the wrestling I grew up on. But watch clips of that on youtube now. The production values are a step above porn. Yet, they were able to launch national tours behind that product).

 

Once Vince got through the first Wrestlemania, the territories were dead. Someone like JYD or Jake Roberts could make more money doing ten minute mid-card matches on a B-tour with the WWF than they could doing 30 minute main event brawls in Louisiana. I think even Dusty has said that he made more money in one year wearing polka dots than he ever did running a national promotion and main eventing Starrcades and Bunkhouse Stampedes (one of which I attended live because I had a very odd childhood).

 

Vince also had the benefit of competing with people who were not great businessmen. I agree with Ric Flair and Jim Cornette that Jim Crockett could have stayed in business forever if it had stayed in Charlotte and never toured further north than Pittsburgh and Baltimore and never further West than Chicago. But that company went out of business because they decided to move their headquarters to Dallas and kept flying wrestlers on private jets to do 3000-person houses in run-down barns in Philadelphia and Long Island. 

 

I still say that the only promotion that could have competed long-term on a national level with Vince was WCCW. Fritz had the best looking tv show. He had a relationship with ESPN. He had a relationship with CBN (Chistian Broadcasting). He had a relationship with international syndicators (WCCW toured Israel. That's where Mike Von Erich originally sustained the injury that led to the surgery that led to his toxic shock syndrome that led to his suicide). He was based in a city (Dallas) that was not as high-profile as New York but that was a recognized international business center. And he had three star wrestlers who were never going to leave him under any circumstances. He did not have great booking (WCCW had the worst finishes in wrestling history), but neither did Vince for a lot of the 80s.

 

For WCCW to have gone to the next level would have required a dozen things to have gone right instead of horribly tragically wrong. But in 1983, that promotion had everything it needed to go national.

 

Back to Vince, he did take a bit of a risk in the mid 90s when WCW started beating him. But that happened in part because he had actually killed his own business to a large degree. He nearly went to prison. In response, he gave up day to day control for a while. That meant that the product was wildly uneven for a few years. When he came back, his best ideas seemed to be giving every wrestler a part-time job (Accountant, hockey player, repo man, male stripper, etc).

 

He made a major change by turning heel, giving the ball to Austin, and letting Russo book. But I would say once that worked, he immediately became conservative again. Raw hasn't changed its look in forever. Once WCW failed, he hasn't taken any kind of major risk in booking. He seems perfectly happy as long as the ratings hit a certain level and the merchandise moves.

Let's assume for just a second that he could. Forget the theory that he will never do it. I'm kind of in that camp myself... But I see the possibility shaping up... And if that is the payoff, with a HUGE push for Bryan to ultimately win the prize and be the face of the company, than a lot of "wrongs" by the WWE in the last few months are suddenly "righted".

 

Have you seen the PPV buys for the short-lived Bryan era? Granted, I think they buried Bryan during all that, but the numbers are scary. He's never getting back to that level again. I think John Cena is the "face of the company" for two more years at the very least. After that, maybe someone in The Shield. I mean, Roman Reigns looks like the vision of a pro wrestler that Vince masturbates to.

 

As for long-term booking, I don't think they even know what they are doing going forward. I don't think they even have Wrestlemania main event figured out yet. (It seems to be that if you were going to do a real unification with Orton and Cena, Wrestlemania is the place to do it, not some throwaway December PPV. But what do I know? For the record, I don't think the titles are really being unified. At least not yet).

Edited December 4, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[KDawg]

You're probably right, but still... There is a little difference now with HHH being much more involved. We *think* it's been poorly booked, but there is always the possibility that we get thrown for a major loop and everyone that has been down on the product is excited again.

 

I'll give you that history says that's probably not the case. But I'm hoping it is. It's time to make the product fresh again.

 

I will say this, though, I don't blame the buyrates being poor due to Bryan. It's like blaming the quarterback when an entire team plays poorly (Redskins...), There is always more involved than just the guy that is the primary attraction. That doesn't mean he doesn't share in the blame, but it can't be put on him. The buyrates have been poor because of a subpar product... But if WWE is smart, and they go the unpredictable way here, they can afford lulls like the one they had if they show they bounce back from those lulls with a vengeance.

 

I'm also of the belief that the titles don't get unified. I think they may even swap belts...

 

But, to quote Owen Hart, "Enough is enough and it's time for a change!"

 

I think HHH may be doing things a lot better than we give him credit for.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You're probably right, but still... There is a little difference now with HHH being much more involved. We *think* it's been poorly booked, but there is always the possibility that we get thrown for a major loop and everyone that has been down on the product is excited again.

 

 

I think they think it has been poorly booked. Have you read the stories on how the creative team is all fearing that they will be fired before Christmas?

 

Wrestling is way overdue for another boom period. But I just don't know if that is possible in a one-territory world.

 

I will say this, though, I don't blame the buyrates being poor due to Bryan. It's like blaming the quarterback when an entire team plays poorly (Redskins...), There is always more involved than just the guy that is the primary attraction. That doesn't mean he doesn't share in the blame, but it can't be put on him. The buyrates have been poor because of a subpar product... But if WWE is smart, and they go the unpredictable way here, they can afford lulls like the one they had if they show they bounce back from those lulls with a vengeance.

 

I agree that Bryan is not solely to blame. But do you think HHH and Vince are going to look at the 5'10 skinny guy and say, "Nah...he's not to blame?" HHH has a different vision from Vince in a lot of ways. But he and Vince both agree on what a superstar looks like. And it ain't Bryan.

 

I think HHH may be doing things a lot better than we give him credit for.

 

Long-term, I trust HHH. His vision of wrestling seems a lot closer to mine than Vince's does. The problem I have with HHH right now is that he is such an energy suck on tv. Johnny Ace was better as the authority figure, because Johnny Ace would show ass. Even in the contract signing on Monday, HHH had to remind the world that he was one of the greats along with Flair and Hogan. He may be trolling smarts when he does stuff like that, but that doesn't make it any more entertaining. I'm legitimately worried that the Wrestlemania Main Event may be a three-way match to unify to the belts for real...with Cena....Orton...and HHH.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

You're probably right, but still... There is a little difference now with HHH being much more involved. We *think* it's been poorly booked, but there is always the possibility that we get thrown for a major loop and everyone that has been down on the product is excited again.

 

I'll give you that history says that's probably not the case. But I'm hoping it is. It's time to make the product fresh again.

 

I will say this, though, I don't blame the buyrates being poor due to Bryan. It's like blaming the quarterback when an entire team plays poorly (Redskins...), There is always more involved than just the guy that is the primary attraction. That doesn't mean he doesn't share in the blame, but it can't be put on him. The buyrates have been poor because of a subpar product... But if WWE is smart, and they go the unpredictable way here, they can afford lulls like the one they had if they show they bounce back from those lulls with a vengeance.

 

I'm also of the belief that the titles don't get unified. I think they may even swap belts...

 

But, to quote Owen Hart, "Enough is enough and it's time for a change!"

 

I think HHH may be doing things a lot better than we give him credit for.

Your whole post contradicts the WWE's MO dude.

 

Scapegoating in terms of ratings always happens. I'm pretty sure that's why Jeff Hardy never had a long title run despite being the most over guy in the business for a year long period.

 

And according to insiders, Cena does way too much charity work and stuff to ever turn heel. Kids (and parents by association) buy merch. Most adults don't.

 

Vince doesn't cater to "us" anymore. Also, the Stone Cold heel turn is a good example. Nobody bought it.

Edited December 4, 2013 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[KDawg]

Your whole post contradicts the WWE's MO dude.

 

Scapegoating in terms of ratings always happens. I'm pretty sure that's why Jeff Hardy never had a long title run despite being the most over guy in the business for a year long period.

 

And according to insiders, Cena does way too much charity work and stuff to ever turn heel. Kids (and parents by association) buy merch. Most adults don't.

 

Vince doesn't cater to "us" anymore. Also, the Stone Cold heel turn is a good example. Nobody bought it.

 

Sure. I think I even admitted it was a difference to the way things have been, the Owen Hart quote should be a testament to that.

 

As I mentioned earlier, they screwed up the Stone Cold turn because it was about comedy. He wasn't a mean, defiant Texas Rattlesnake. He was goofy. Goofy doesn't make you a heel.

 

Besides which, Austin and Cena are different cases. Austin was cheered by virtually everyone. It's hard as hell to get the crowd to turn on a guy who already acts like a heel but gets cheered for doing it.

 

It's easier to get a crowd to turn on a face who is already booed. I understand it's not likely. As I type these responses I have serious doubts. I really do. I don't see it happening. But if it did happen, the wrestling world would turn on its head and we'd have an opportunity for the product to be fresh and new again. That's exciting, to me. So it's a lot of hope (to quote Cena from RAW: "Crap in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up first")

 

But I don't think it's impossible to turn him. I don't.

 

But again, I agree that it just isn't likely.