Any use for these dogs anymore?

[Huly]

How are these dogs trained or have they even been trained. I had 2 pitbulls when I was 5, one passed when I was 14(Guiness) and the other when I was 19(Snow who was handsom, all white with red nose). Not once did the dogs even try to bite me or any of my friends not even when we were playing with them. That is because my mother trained them well. It is not the dog but the owner.

Hope this helps:

Monday July 12, 2004 5:54pm Reporter: Bill Mitchell

Holdenville - A dog fighting ring in Oklahoma may be tied to others in Texas and California. There are new developments in the case we've been following for more than a month. Many of the pit bull dogs allegedly belong to former NFL running back LeShon Johnson.

Oklahoma authorities tell us dog fighting is a nationwide problem and has links to gambling and drugs. Investigators from the Oklahoma Vet Board and Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics agents seized documents tied to the dog fighting ring. Those documents include sales receipts, breeding certificates and fighting schedules.

According to Oklahoma authorities, LeShon Johnson went from a running back in the National Football League to running a major dog breeding and fighting operation here in Oklahoma. Johnson was charged with racketeering and conspiracy in June.

Last week, the dogs allegedly belonging to him were found at relatives homes near Checotah. So far, police have arrested 22 people and confiscated more than two hundred fighting dogs. Most of the 142 pit bulls seized in May have already been euthanized.

"There were three puppies that hadn't been trained and we can get good homes for those," says OBN Spokesman Mark Woodward. "But, the rest, for an adult dog already gone through this type of training to be a dog fighter, it's just too risky."

Woodward says some of the training methods for these fighting pit bulls are inhumane.

"By dumping them in a two to three foot vat of water and just making them fight to stay afloat for two hours to see if they have the endurance, very cruel means of training long before they get into the ring," he said.

Authorities say Johnson has his own website promoting his dogs and their heritage. Woodward says browsers can register, get a password, and see the fighting history of the dogs as well. He says this is big business. Stud fees on the fighting pit bulls start at five hundred dollars. And, the purchase price of a good dog begins at a couple of thousand dollars.

The investigation into the fighting dogs covers five Oklahoma counties. And, authorities are promising more dog confiscations like this one as well as more arrests.

If found guilty, Johnson could get ten years in prison for every dog linked to his operation -- more than 500 years.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0218_040218_dogfighting.html

U.S. Dog-Fighting Rings Stealing Pets for "Bait"

Maryann Mott

for National Geographic News

February 18, 2004

For years the Pima County Sheriff's Department found the chewed-up bodies of dead dogs in the Arizona desert. But it wasn't until four years ago that the truth behind the killings emerged: Stolen family pets were being used in bloody training exercises by dog fighting rings.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/2810/WA/US/1

As they walked along the outside fence, they saw 19 chained pit bulls, a litter of at least 10 rabbits and a dog treadmill, the affidavit says.

Live rabbits often are used as bait to train pit bulls, a technique known as "blooding" where the dog mauls and kills another animal as a way to encourage aggression. Dog treadmills, smaller versions of those found in athletic clubs, are used to build endurance for fights that can last an hour or longer.

Animal-control officers saw an area lined by hay bales and other items, 14 to 16 feet square, that could have been used for staging dogfights, according to the affidavit. They also spotted four or five pit bulls with scarring, a potential indicator of past fights, the affidavit says.

According to court papers, police carted off a number of items Tuesday that could be used to build a case against Ribaya, including:

* Assorted wound medications and syringes, along with possible suturing materials.

* Multiple bottles of vitamins, steroid supplements and veterinary compounds for quick recovery from heavy exertion.

* Photos of three pit bulls attacking a live boar.

* Handwritten charts showing training and feeding schedules for a dog named "Baby Girl."

Police also confiscated evidence of an indoor marijuana- growing operation, including grow lamps and marijuana remnants from a drying operation.

[webnarc]

I figured it was worth mentioning that there was great participation in this thread and anyone who entered it with a desire to learn something probably did. Good job members!

[PleaseBlitz]

Ok, im about to let this one go and agree to disagree, but I just want my questions answered. The statistics posted on this thread have shown that Pit Bulls and Rottie's and mixes kill more people than other breeds. OK, all dogs bite, I understand that, but these 2 particular breeds have a higher tendency to KILL people when they do bite.

My question is what makes these dogs so damn great that they are worth the risk? Assuming that 1 out of 10, hell 1 out of 100 is going to go to a negligent owner, is it worth it that some people are GOING TO DIE so that people can have this particular breed of dog? I dont understand what makes them so much better than other breeds? Its a simple question. Can anyone enlighten me?

And yes, Huly, we should get rid of all cats.

[PleaseBlitz]

I must say, though, I disagree with the premise of your second question. You seem to think that simply having a Rotty or Pit Bull automatically endangers neihborhood kids -- it depends entirely on the owner. A responsible owner with a Pit or Rotty is not a cause for fear. But an idiot with a Pit or Rotty is truly dangerous -- as is an idiot with a drug lab, an idiot with a gun, an idiot with a car...

#1. There are a lot of idiots out there.

#2. Its almost funny that you compared these dogs to other things that are dangerous, drug lab, gun, car, yet you dont see the potential for danger in the dogs.

#3. Drug lab---illegal

Guns---regulation in the form of background checks, registration, etc. Not enough though.

Cars---at least you have to pass a test and know some basics.

Dogs--- ????

[Gamebreaker]

Who in the world was the one person who got killed by a ****er spaniel (Table 2)? :doh:

:laugh: The ****er spaniel got 'em in his sleep. :laugh: :laugh:

[chomerics]

#1. There are a lot of idiots out there.

#2. Its almost funny that you compared these dogs to other things that are dangerous, drug lab, gun, car, yet you dont see the potential for danger in the dogs.

#3. Drug lab---illegal

Guns---regulation in the form of background checks, registration, etc. Not enough though.

Cars---at least you have to pass a test and know some basics.

Dogs--- ????

Anything has the potential to be lethal, that was his point. You are needlessly focusing on dogs, and it is not correct.

Like everyone on ES who has a familiarity with dogs, and experience with them can attest, it is the owners, not the dogs. And yes, the analogy with guns and knives works as well. Just because you can own one doesn't mean you SHOULD own one.

But hell, anyone can have a child as well, and raising a child in a dangerous manner is a hell of a lot more deadly then raising a dog dangerously. Using your premise, children should be outlawed as well

[Huly]

I hope this helps you PleaseBlitz! All dogs have awesome qualities it just depends on why people are getting them and no not all cats should be killed! I love my cats (hence my board name)!

The fun loving, spunky and affectionate attitude of the APBT is what most admirers come to love best about these dogs. We like to say "To know them is to love them". Pit bulls are impressively loyal, bold and courageous animals. They are natually clownish, alert and intelligent .. in other words, a whole lot of fun to have around! Many participate and excel in various dog sports and activities, including Obedience Trials, Search and Rescue work, Agility Trials, Flyball and Frisbee Competitions, and Weight Pulling events. With their tenacious work drive and strong desire to please their owners, they are natural competitors and win impressive titles wherever they're worked. (The photo on the left is Deputy Sheriff Alan Benninga and his trusty K9 pal who was trained for patrol and narcotics work in Clay Co KS. - Thanks to Alan for letting us show off his pride and joy

http://www.realpitbull.com/temperament.html

Temperament

If there was a manual describing ideal Pit Bull temperament, it would probably read something like this: "The Pit Bull is goofily friendly towards people--family, friends, and strangers alike. Known for its sound character, strong nerve, and great intelligence, the breed makes an ideal companion for households with children, while remaining strong and vigilent enough to protect its loved ones if need be. It is never necessary to embark on guard or attack training with this breed, as they are naturally attuned to their environment and intuitive about real threats. Although never aggressive towards people without real need, the Pit Bull is dog-aggressive, to varying degrees. The properly socialized and trained Pit Bull should not be an instigater, yet neither should he shy away from a challenge. The breed is known for its high prey drive, and so due caution should be exercised when cats, rabbits, domestic fowl, and other such animals are present. Aggression towards other animals should not be viewed as a fault, although excessive, uncontrollable aggression is neither desired nor correct. Aggression towards humans should be viewed as a serious fault.

As our "ideal temperament manual" states above, the Pit Bull is generally a very friendly, stable, safe breed. Although in recent years some individuals have misused the breed and the media have misrepresented it, aggression towards humans never was and still isn't what the Pit Bull is about. Human-aggression is a serious matter, and not something that should be taken lightly. Human aggressive dogs (i.e. dogs that bite/attempt to bite humans) are an aberration. Growling (i.e. over toys, food, when moved off the sofa, bed, etc.) should be considered a warning, and possibly a precursor to biting behavior. It is imperative that owners seek professional help if their dog is exhibiting any of these behaviors.

Because the Pit Bull is generally such a people-friendly breed, they often make poor guards of property. Many specimens of the breed will allow strangers to enter the home or yard without a fuss, whether the owner is present or not. As a guardian of his human, however, the Pit Bull is quite willing and able to intercept an attack. The breed is credited with having exceptional judgement and will react only to real threats. Because of the Pit Bull's generally poor guarding instincts and natural inclination to protect his owner if need be, it is best to stay away from any sort of guard or protection dog training. A good dog can be ruined quite easily, making for a wary, untrusting animal that may become a danger to humans. Do not try to make the Pit Bull into something he is not. If a serious guard or attack dog is what you desire, it is best to look to one of the breeds that have been specifically created for that type of work.

This breed is known to keep its owners laughing. They are silly, almost to the point of being rediculous. Flailing around upside down on their backs, laying with their heads draped off the side of the couch, engaging in rambunctious sprints around the living room (known to Pit Bull folk as "pit fits"), these dogs are always clowning around. They are active and energetic, and too much dog for some to handle, just the right amount for others.

Pit Bulls are generally quite aggressive towards other animals, although the degree of aggression will vary from dog to dog. Pit Bulls are naturally animal aggressive and it is therefore necessary for the Pit Bull owner to take certain precautions in the housing, training, and socialization of the animal. Pit Bulls also have a very strong prey drive. Small animals such as birds, squirrels and cats are often viewed as "hunting" targets. The young Pit Bull should be socialized from early on with many types of animals and other dogs. Basic early obedience training is a must. However, you cannot socialize or train away genetics. Since most Pit Bulls are pre-disposed to animal aggression, socialization and training are simply tools of management. A dog that has been raised properly will be easier to handle and control than a dog that has not been socialized or taught how to behave.

Animal aggression as it relates to the Pit Bull is a tricky thing. Even dogs that have never manifested the trait may, at some point, fire up and engage in a fight with another dog or suddenly begin to take a strong interest in small animals. Also, many specimens of the breed will never start a fight, yet will not back down if challenged.

Because Pit Bulls have a desire or even a compulsive instinct to fight, they are not necessarily looking to show dominance or obtain rank by aggressing. Even fairly submissive individuals cannot be trusted to remain out of trouble at all times. Allowing a Pit Bull to "work out rank" with other dogs is dangerous and may very well result in injuries. Although neutering can definately help in some cases (particularly with young males), do not count on the operation eliminating the aggression completely. Both sexes can be animal aggressive, although males can be more "firey". Same-sex aggression is a problem, and many a *****-owner has stated that female fights are far worse than male-on-male bouts. Regardless of the sexes involved, it is generally felt that same-sex households are not a good idea, particularly for the novice owner.

Pit Bulls are slow to mature. A dog may not show his true temperament until he is 2 or 3 or even 4 years old. Just because your puppy has reached a year of age without having shown animal aggression does not mean he will never manifest the trait.

Pit Bulls can and do interact peacefully with other dogs and animals. Individual dog temperament, early training and socializing, all play an important role in whether or not a Pit Bull is capable of getting along with other animals. Many people successfully keep multiple Pit Bulls and other pets in the same household. Success is based on careful supervision, proper management and training, and the individual animals involved.

Please see the Aggression, Care & Management, & Training pages for more info on breed temperament, handling and training.

[Huly]

Rotti:

Rottweilers are a great family dog. A person who wants to own a rottweiler needs to make sure that they have time to spend with the dog as a rottweiler is known to "stick like glue" to their family. They have big hearts and are very loving and attentive. They can't stand to be away from "their people" for huge amounts of time. If you are going to be away for a long period of time during a day or night I suggest you at least have someone come over to let your dog outside to relieve himself and have some human contact. On that note, rottweilers should not be left alone all the time to their own devices, this is when things can become very dangerous, remember this is a powerful dog things can be destroyed including the relationship between you and your dog. If you are looking for a dog that will sit outside and guard your house please do not get a rottweiler. Although they are a very imposing dog, and most will protect if need be, it is not fair to have a dog if your only reason for wanting one is to protect you!

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/rottweil.html

Introduction

The Rottweiler is a dog of many talents: he’s rough and tumble, ready for anything; easy to train, if treated with respect and consistency; loyal and protective, at times to a fault; strong, yet gentle; aloof and dignified with strangers and playful and loving to his family. In short, the Rottie is the typical “tough guy with a heart of gold.”

This steadfast canine soldier developed from the Molossus dog of Italy, a Mastiff-type dog bred to fight lions in Roman amphitheaters and serve the army in its campaigns. The progenitors of the Rottie traveled with the conquerors, driving and protecting cattle that fed the warriors on their long and arduous treks through inhospitable terrain. Dogs often stayed behind as the armies pressed on, breeding with the native canines and producing working dogs suited to particular climates, conditions, and occupations.

The Romans crossed the Alps into southern Germany in the First Century on the road to conquering all of Europe. The Romans established the town of Arae Flaviae as a fortified cultural and administrative center. The red-tiled roofs of the most important buildings gave the village its German name, Rottwil (red villa), later changed to Rottweil. The town grew in importance, and by the Middle Ages, it was a bustling center of commerce and justice. Cattlemen used the descendants of the Roman dogs to bring the herds to the butcher for sale and to guard their purses of money on the way home, and the butchers in turn used the dogs to pull the carts carrying the meat. The butchers developed a larger strain of dogs for draft work, but it is the smaller herding-type Rottweilers that are most popular today.

Eventually, donkeys replaced Rottweilers as city cart draft animals. The growing prominence of the railroad for shipping freight as well as transporting people led to the outlawing of cattle drives through German towns. Since dogs were prized more for the work they did than the companionship they provided, Rottweilers declined in population; in 1900, only a single Rottie ***** was recorded in all of Rottweil.

The breed’s resurgence began a few years into the 20th Century when Rotties were recognized as potential police dogs for their intelligence, loyalty, and strength. The rest is history. In 1921, after several years of squabbles among fanciers, the Allgemeiner Deutscher Rottweiler Klub formed with the motto “Rottweiler breeding is working dog breeding.” No Rottweiler can have a German championship without first proving his mettle as a working dog.

The Rottie came to the US with a German emigrant, probably in the late 1920s. The first litter was whelped in 1930, and the first dog registered by the American Kennel Club in 1931. The original stock in this country came from Germany, but breeding requirements in the US were not as strict as in the homeland. The breed marked time until after WWII, when it began a steady rise in popularity as an obedience dog. In more recent years, German-bred dogs have achieved a level of attention as more Rottie owners get involved in Schutzhund or protection work with their dogs. German breeders still insist on working ability in their dogs and championships are withheld if the dog cannot prove himself in the field as well as the show ring.

Popularity in the US accelerated puppy production and caused health and temperament problems in the breed, but bad publicity and a general downturn in the preference for big guardian breeds has caused a turn-around. Rottweiler registrations numbered in the hundreds in the late 1940s, peaked above 100 thousand per year in the mid-1990s, and dropped to 37,355 at the end of the decade. Today, the breed ranks eleventh in popularity of AKC’s 148 breeds, down from second a few years ago. Litter numbers are on the decline as well; the breed ranked sixteenth in 2000 with 13,089 litters registered.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Physical appearance

The Rottweiler is a large dog, with males ranging from 24-27 inches at the shoulder and females from 22-25 inches. Weight ranges from 80-110 pounds. The dog is slightly longer than it is tall with a large frame balanced by a deep, broad chest and heavy muscling. Rotts are always black with clearly delineated rust or mahogany markings over the eyes, on the side of the muzzle, and on throat, chest, and lower legs. The tail is docked short and carried at or slightly above horizontal as an extension of the level back.

The Rottie coat is smooth and short with an undercoat present on the neck and thighs. Wavy or curly coats are faulted and long coats are disqualifications for breeding and the show ring.

The Rottweiler in motion is a picture of power and stamina with strong reach in front and forceful drive in the rear. A well-conditioned Rott is a superb athlete; he trots with great stamina and seemingly little effort – an efficiency of movement inherited from his days as a cattle drover.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Temperament

It is in breed temperament that the Rott is often misjudged. A well-bred Rottweiler is calm, confident, and courageous with an inherent aloofness towards strangers and a reserved attitude in new situations. Combined with his fierce devotion to home and family, these characteristics can be subverted from their original purpose by poor breeding practices, lack of socialization, and failure to teach basic good manners. Rottweiler owners without a strong grasp of the breed’s nature can find themselves in trouble if the dog has been badly bred or assumes leadership of the family.

[AdamB]

Ok, im about to let this one go and agree to disagree, but I just want my questions answered. The statistics posted on this thread have shown that Pit Bulls and Rottie's and mixes kill more people than other breeds. OK, all dogs bite, I understand that, but these 2 particular breeds have a higher tendency to KILL people when they do bite.

My question is what makes these dogs so damn great that they are worth the risk? Assuming that 1 out of 10, hell 1 out of 100 is going to go to a negligent owner, is it worth it that some people are GOING TO DIE so that people can have this particular breed of dog? I dont understand what makes them so much better than other breeds? Its a simple question. Can anyone enlighten me?

And yes, Huly, we should get rid of all cats.

ABPTs and their related breeds are intelligent, do not have the physical genetic issues many other breeds have (or at least much fewer), do not shed or require much grooming other than a bath, are easily trained, extremely devoted to their owners and family, are very tolerant of children and their "ooo! dog ears! *grab*" type of behaviors, and have the physical appearence many people find much better than other dogs. In other words, until the bad reputation took hold, they were considered one of the best family dogs there was.

And even if 1 out of 100 of these dogs go to bad owner, and if these two breeds were such vicious ticking time bombs as many make them out to be, fatal dog attacks by these two breeds would be a common occurance, which is not the case. The vast majority of these dogs, even those owned by people who should not own one, are not going to maul or kill someone.

Besides which, what do you plan to do about them either way? It has been shown time and again that breed bans do not work. Why? The people who it effects, the people who actually would adhere to the law, are usually the owners who are good owners and breeders who are working to better the breed, etc. The jerks who run dog fights, or chain their dogs in the backyard and just want them to be mean, etc. are not going to care whether they are banned or not. More people are being killed by Rotties and "pit bulls" than other breeds because, right now, the good owner/idiot jerk owner (ie: abusive, or intentionally trying to make the dog mean, etc) ratio is higher than other breeds. Even if you ban the breeds and, by some miracle, it actually works, then you will start seeing more fatal doberman and german shepard attacks as the idiots will just start owning those dogs again.

Regulate them - fine. Matter a fact, I hope many communities start not only regulating who can own these dogs, but also start enforcing their own animal regulations in general.

[redman]

It is not the dog but the owner.

Again, with the caveat that good breeding (especially for temperament) helps out a lot, and in some cases may be essential. This is the biggest problem IMHO with pit bulls given that they're fasionable and so they're bred like crazy by backyard breeders.

[jpillian]

Regulate them - fine. Matter a fact, I hope many communities start not only regulating who can own these dogs, but also start enforcing their own animal regulations in general.

I think this seems to be the most reasonable course of action.

[redman]

Good post, Huly, about the Rotties. It should tell you something that they're used as police dogs by some countries. Only dogs that are under exceptional control and are intelligent can work in that capacity. It's the owners and the breeders here who are at fault for these attacks, not the breed itself.

A classic example of this was Doberman Pinschers. 10 to 15 years ago, that was a breed that was known for its ferocity and unpredictability, and rightfully so because it had been inbred a fair amount which hurt its temperament overall (this is not difficult at all to do with breeds with smaller populations). The respectable breeders recognized and addressed this problem aggressively, and now Dobermans are back to being their loving, goofy, very trainable selves.

[AdamB]

I am just happy the idiots wannabe street toughs have not latched onto Bull Mastiffs - stronger than a pit, almost as agile, faster than they look, and about 80-100 pounds heavier.

Then again, the first time a bully drooled all over their car seats or on their clothes, that would be the end of that...can't look tough with dog drool on your shirt....

[zoony]

I am just happy the idiots wannabe street toughs have not latched onto Bull Mastiffs - stronger than a pit, almost as agile, faster than they look, and about 80-100 pounds heavier.

Then again, the first time a bully drooled all over their car seats or on their clothes, that would be the end of that...can't look tough with dog drool on your shirt....

No doubt a Mastiff is a presence, but I'm not sure any dog could take a Pit Bull in a fight.

The Pits simply will not give up, and have an incredible combination of speed AND power.

.......

[pez]

hmmmm..... adults are more dangerous than children, because they are bigger... should we kill anyone over say 16?

Some of them have killed! That means we should kill off every adult!

[webnarc]

I am just happy the idiots wannabe street toughs have not latched onto Bull Mastiffs - stronger than a pit, almost as agile, faster than they look, and about 80-100 pounds heavier.

Then again, the first time a bully drooled all over their car seats or on their clothes, that would be the end of that...can't look tough with dog drool on your shirt....

I agree with you here.

But it's an unpopular view here to try and control a moron's rights to own a dog.

[tlk2rn]

GoSkins561, Sorry but I just had to go look in my Pit's eyes and I really stared him down. He just looked at me with a sad look like he did someting wrong. WOW I do know what your talking about. He got scared of me and didn't do a darn thing.

It is all how you raise the dog just like a child.

I agree totally.

[twa]

I agree with you here.

But it's an unpopular view here to try and control a moron's rights to own a dog.

We would be better off regulating the moron's that are worse than the dogs :2cents:

[Predicto]

We would be better off regulating the moron's that are worse than the dogs :2cents:

It's a lot easier to regulate the dogs, I think.

[jbooma]

It's a lot easier to regulate the dogs, I think.

I agree with you, it is way to hard to regulate the people who own the dogs, and that is the sad thing.

[jbooma]

I am just happy the idiots wannabe street toughs have not latched onto Bull Mastiffs - stronger than a pit, almost as agile, faster than they look, and about 80-100 pounds heavier.

Then again, the first time a bully drooled all over their car seats or on their clothes, that would be the end of that...can't look tough with dog drool on your shirt....

That is because the Mastiff is a gentle breed, similar to the bulldog.

[redman]

I agree with you, it is way to hard to regulate the people who own the dogs, and that is the sad thing.

I'm not sure that I'm understanding the distinction here between regulating the people versus regulating the dogs, given that the dogs don't exactly live independently of people. Besides, complaining about difficulty in regulating something that people are howling about because it's dangerous to peoples' lives sounds pretty feeble, don't you think?

[PleaseBlitz]

the good owner/idiot jerk owner (ie: abusive, or intentionally trying to make the dog mean, etc) ratio is higher than other breeds. Even if you ban the breeds and, by some miracle, it actually works, then you will start seeing more fatal doberman and german shepard attacks as the idiots will just start owning those dogs again.

See now THAT makes some sense. Now just explain to be the draw of owning the more vicious dogs at all over say, a lab or a retriever or a collie or JRT.

Huly, your articles did make a lot of sense. I guess not being a dog person, i see a dog and im like "its a dog." I dont see much difference in the intelligence, courage, or alertness. I see either lazy/hyper, nice/mean, big/small, knows tricks/doesnt know tricks and thats about it.

Im not advocating banning anything, im just questioning the intelligence of keeping something around with a mind of its own and the ability to kill your daughter/grandma. Especially since this particular breed seems to draw the worst kind of dog owners, but that brings us back to AdamB's point. Its circular logic.

Also, everyone keeps comparing these dogs to guns and saying they are equally deadly in the hands of a poor owner. Well, a gun doesnt have a mind of its own. Sometimes animals go crazy, no matter how well trained.

I actually did a google search to make sure that I wasnt way off base with this whole line of thought. This came back at the top:

http://attack.igorilla.com/

Every other line is a Pit Bull, the rest are wild animails

Pit Bull

Shark

Pit Bull

Bear

Pit Bull

Aligator

Pit Bull

Coyote

Pit Bull

Rhinocerous (yes, a Rhinocerous)

Im just saying that their reputation may not be completely unjustified as everyone here seems to be claiming. :2cents:

[redman]

Huly, your articles did make a lot of sense. I guess not being a dog person, i see a dog and im like "its a dog." I dont see much difference in the intelligence, courage, or alertness. I see either lazy/hyper, nice/mean, big/small, knows tricks/doesnt know tricks and thats about it.

You should do yourself a favor and get yourself a dog (after researching which breed tends to best fit your lifestyle). It will open your eyes to a whole new world.

I saw this happen first hand with my wife who went from viewing dogs as animals, to viewing our 100 lb. German Shepherd as her baby and a family member, and saying to me, "I'm going to hate you when she dies." Even her mom, who at 80 years of age never owned a dog, has commented to me that now that she's gotten to know our dog well (they're best friends), she now notices that they all have different personalities. She'd never realized that before.

[Huly]

See now THAT makes some sense. Now just explain to be the draw of owning the more vicious dogs at all over say, a lab or a retriever or a collie or JRT.

Huly, your articles did make a lot of sense. I guess not being a dog person, i see a dog and im like "its a dog." I dont see much difference in the intelligence, courage, or alertness. I see either lazy/hyper, nice/mean, big/small, knows tricks/doesnt know tricks and thats about it.

Im not advocating banning anything, im just questioning the intelligence of keeping something around with a mind of its own and the ability to kill your daughter/grandma. Especially since this particular breed seems to draw the worst kind of dog owners, but that brings us back to AdamB's point. Its circular logic.

Also, everyone keeps comparing these dogs to guns and saying they are equally deadly in the hands of a poor owner. Well, a gun doesnt have a mind of its own. Sometimes animals go crazy, no matter how well trained.

I actually did a google search to make sure that I wasnt way off base with this whole line of thought. This came back at the top:

http://attack.igorilla.com/

Every other line is a Pit Bull, the rest are wild animails

Pit Bull

Shark

Pit Bull

Bear

Pit Bull

Aligator

Pit Bull

Coyote

Pit Bull

Rhinocerous (yes, a Rhinocerous)

Im just saying that their reputation may not be completely unjustified as everyone here seems to be claiming. :2cents:

Look at Humane Society Records etc. They have the most up to date facts. Also a lot of mixed breed bites get blamed on the Pit Bull. I am not stating a Pit Bull is for everyone because they are not and I believe owners should be regulated (see thread about puppy being buried alive). That is why I work so closely with rescues. We screen homes and adopters. It is a sad world we live in. I love the Shepherds, Rottis, and even Pits their loyalty and intelligence is amazing. My dream has always been to get a Great Dane or a Mastiff but the hubby likes middle size dogs.

A lot of labs, goldens and even dalmations have been so inbred they have serious health and mental issues. Dalmations particularly with the mental issues it is scary. That is why some people do not want that kind of pet. If you decide to get a pet let me know and I can help you decide what would be best for you and your family.