Any use for these dogs anymore?

[Huly]

This is a great website too!

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html (attached Chart)

http://www.goodpooch.com/BSL/openlettertomichaelbryant.htm

"In 2003, 13 years after the ban on 'pit bulls' was implemented, Winnipeg reported 166 dog bites caused by the following dog breeds:

Shepherd cross (38), Terrier cross (11), Rottweiler (11), Lab cross (10), German Shepherd (8), Husky cross (7), Border Collie cross (7), Bearded Collie cross (6), Rottweiler cross (5), Chow cross (5), Lab (5), Great Dane cross (3), Golden Retriever (3), Dalmation (3), Poodle cross (2), Golden Retriever cross (2), ****er Spaniel cross (2), Boxer cross (2), Australian Shepherd cross (2), Terrier (2), Pomeranian (2), Chow Chow (2), Boxer (2), Border Collie (2), Samoyed cross (1), Mastiff cross (1), Heeler cross (1), Great Pyrennes cross (1), Doberman cross (1), Dachshund cross (1), Dalmation cross (1), Corgi cross (1), Akita cross (1), Springer Spaniel (1), Siberian Husky (1), Shih Tzu (1), 'Pit bull' type (1), Miniature Schnauzer (1), Irish Setter (1), Great Dane (1), Doberman Pinscher (1), Dachshund (1), ****er Spaniel (1), Bull Mastiff (1), Brittany Spaniel (1), Bloodhound (1), Bichon Frise (1), Akita (1)."

[Predicto]

My point is ANY dog is potentially dangerous. It seems ABPTs are more so primarily because they appeal to the jerks because of their looks and rep, and because the media reports any and all potential "pit bull" attacks, while passing over attacks by other dogs since it is not newsworthy/fear-mongering. And not all "pit bull" attacks are serious or fatal, most are not any worse than any other large dog (large = 80#+).

But hey! Lets say those who want the breed gone are 100% right - I am assuming handguns will be banned cross-country as well? I mean, hey, if a pit bulls only pupose is to be aggressive, and the only real purpose of a handgun is to take life, then it must be about the same, right? If a pitbull in the wrongs hands is extremely dangerous, isn't a handgun in the wrong hands also extremely dangerous? If ya get bit by a ****er spaniel, its not nearly as bad as a pit bull bite, right? Well, if I get shot by a BB gun, its not nearly as bad as a .38, right?

Nope, that would be dumb. Why? Handguns, in the right hands, are a source of protection, recreation, etc. And as people like pointing out, most gun owners do not go on shooting rampages, etc. Well, guess what, same thing as a pitbull (or any large dog) - bad owners = danger. Bad gun owner = danger.Yes, a dog has a mind of its own while a gun does not, but if an owner trains or abuses their dogs, those dogs minds make no more a distinction between right and wrong than a mindless gun.

You say: "My point is any dog is potentially dangerous." That point proves nothing. A dog with jaw muscles the size of softballs that has been bred for fighting instincts is much more dangerous than a typical dog.

Hey - I'm up for banning handguns too, but that's a different thread.

[jpillian]

This is a question just waiting to get flamed -- but since I see thoughtful posters from both sides of this debate posting, I'll throw it out there (I'm really trying to figure out):

What's the difference between owning one of these big, infamous breeds of dogs -- and owning animals not normally seen outside of a zoo? (i.e., a tiger, a bear, or perhaps more appropriately -- smaller "big cats"?)

I seem to have heard in the past of folks in certain localities getting permits to own such animals --- what about a similar course of action for some of these bigger, more agressive dogs?

[zoony]

But hey! Lets say those who want the breed gone are 100% right - I am assuming handguns will be banned cross-country as well? I mean, hey, if a pit bulls only pupose is to be aggressive, and the only real purpose of a handgun is to take life, then it must be about the same, right? If a pitbull in the wrongs hands is extremely dangerous, isn't a handgun in the wrong hands also extremely dangerous? If ya get bit by a ****er spaniel, its not nearly as bad as a pit bull bite, right? Well, if I get shot by a BB gun, its not nearly as bad as a .38, right?

You have made some good points in this thread but the comparison to guns is not one of them. Completely different issue.

I have a handgun that, under no circumstances, would jump out of its case and go attack the neighbors kids.

Just not going to happen. Bad analogy man.

.....

[GoSkins561]

What about Shi Tzu's, one of the meanest dogs I have ever met was a Shi Tzu, it was so mean you would have almost wondered if it had to Sh&^ Thumbtacks every day.

[zoony]

This is a question just waiting to get flamed -- but since I see thoughtful posters from both sides of this debate posting, I'll throw it out there (I'm really trying to figure out):

What's the difference between owning one of these big, infamous breeds of dogs -- and owning animals not normally seen outside of a zoo? (i.e., a tiger, a bear, or perhaps more appropriately -- smaller "big cats"?)

I seem to have heard in the past of folks in certain localities getting permits to own such animals --- what about a similar course of action for some of these bigger, more agressive dogs?

Good point, one I alluded to myself.

I'm sure that a Tiger or Lion could be gentle and sweet and great to have as a pet if you train it properly and take the proper precautions... as can dobermans, german shepherds, rotties, and pits. But make no mistake, all these animals have a tendancy towards aggressiveness if gone unchecked.

So why shouldn't the criteria to own one be the same?

........

[webnarc]

There is a reason most homeowners insurance companies wont insure you if you have certain breeds of dogs.

And is that because certain breeds do more damage than other breeds?

That's my problem with "there are no bad dogs" and "punish the bad owners"; it's retrospective after the damage has been done.

[Huly]

You say: "My point is any dog is potentially dangerous." That point proves nothing. A dog with jaw muscles the size of softballs that has been bred for fighting instincts is much more dangerous than a typical dog.

Hey - I'm up for banning handguns too, but that's a different thread.

http://www.pethelp.net/pits.html

There is no specific breed of dog called a "pit bull". The term refers to a group of dogs developed a for competitive dog fighting. Fighting Mastiffs were described by Caesar after his invasion of Britain in 55 BC and various types were developed in ancient Rome, China and Japan. As long as humans have raised dogs, we have raised protection and fighting dogs. The breeds include bull dogs, terriers and mastiffs. Bull dogs were developed as "catch dogs", dogs used to hold animals for a hunter or butcher to prepare food. Terriers were developed to find and kill vermin and fur bearing animals for hunters and property owners. Mastiffs were developed to protect property and warn off poachers. Eventually, "catch dogs" were no longer useful and bull dogs were routinely crossed with terriers to develop a family pet that would also be agile and tough enough to be protective without being too large.

Throughout human history, animals (including humans) were pitted against each other in spectator sports. Dogs were pitted against bears or bulls, horses against each other. These contests were brutal and eventually made illegal around 1853 (in England). In some US states it's a felony. However, people continue to get together for "my dog is better than your dog" contests. Spectators trainers and owners bet on the outcome of fights. Trainers select dogs for breeding that fight without turning on handlers so that a dog that is injured can be rescued. Trainers also select pain tolerant dogs that are willing to go after all other dogs-even when the other dog is signaling a desire to make peace. Some terriers are still encouraged to "spar" or square off with other dogs (from a distance) at AKC dog shows. Currently, most fighting dogs are developed by crossing the bull and terrier breeds with large, protective mastiffs. Fighting breeds are still valued as pets for their loyalty and tenacity much as herding dogs are valued for their intelligence and sporting dogs for their energy. Of course, some of the fighting breeds, such as the English Bulldog, have been altered so greatly since their fighting days they can no longer be considered working dogs. A few of the fighting breeds that are still agile and have the endurance for competition perform in weight pulling contests or obedience and protection trials.

Unfortunately, large aggressive dogs are in demand by criminals seeking an extension of their own machismo as well as to protect stolen property or contraband. Unfortunately, many breeders still engage in dog fighting regardless of its cruelty and the legal restrictions against it. Thus the group of fighting dogs has acquired a bad reputation because of its association with crime.

Fighting dogs as a group received media attention in the 1990's similar to German Shepherd Dogs in the 50's and Doberman Pinscher's in the 70's. Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Great Danes and Doberman Pinschers still evoke fear in the general public. Several myths about the these dogs persist such as the belief that a dog's jaw "locks" onto a victim or that the jaw pressure of one breed is greater than another's. As a group, fighting and guard dogs are energetic, loyal and willing to please. They are not very reactive to pain and enjoy rough play. These dogs are large and muscular and can be difficult to control as adults if they are not trained to respond to their owner's commands. Guarding dogs all have large heads and jaws. Dog bites from larger breeds are more severe than bites from smaller dogs because of the size of the injuries and the dog's ability to knock a person down during an attack. However, large dogs DO NOT ATTACK MORE OFTEN THAN SMALL DOGS. A large dog attack is just more injurious.

It is important to note that dog attacks are exceedingly rare. Thousands of times greater numbers of people are injured by guns, accidents and fire than have ever been attacked by dogs. Many times more children are killed by their caretakers in a year than have ever been killed by dog attacks. However, dog bites are a serious health problem. Purebred and mixed breed dogs bite people every year. However, the dogs most often responsible for severe bites to humans, especially children, in the US are Labrador Retrievers and German Shepherds and mixes of these breeds. These breeds are the most commonly owned dogs according to AKC registrations and dog licensing records. Increased popularity of guarding and fighting dogs measured by AKC registration, indicates that these dogs are becoming the most commonly owned breeds. So it is likely that they will soon be responsible for most bites, simply because there are so many of them.

Media reports lead the public to believe that packs of roaming Pit Bulls are more likely to bite than the neighborhood dog on his leash. Over 80% of dog bites occur when the dog is with his owner or ON his owner's property. A large number of small children are bitten by dogs they know while visiting the dog's home. Because stories of Pit Bulls stimulate fear, the media is likely to report all cases of biting pit dogs or pit mixes but not stories of injury by poodles and spaniels (which used to be the most frequently reported bites). In addition, the media reports "attacks" when a guarding breed barks at or chases someone even when no one is injured. This adds to the public perception that this type of dog is more dangerous than any other dog. Some statistics lump several breeds into one category and report that "Pit Bulls" cause more serious bites than any other breed. This would be similar to counting all the bites inflicted by Retrievers (Goldens, Duck Tolling, Flat Coats, Labradors, Chesapeake Bays...) and comparing that total to bites inflicted by Miniature Wirehaired Daschunds. It would appear that Retrievers are much more dangerous than Daschunds. But are Flat Coated Retrievers more dangerous than Mini Wirehaired Daschunds?

Some of the current confusion about pit breeds resulted from the UKC registering the American (Pit) Bull Terrier in 1868 and the AKC registering the same dogs as the (American) Staffordshire Terrier in 1935. Meanwhile, two completely different breeds, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the Bull Terrier, were registered by the Kennel Club in the UK. Other Kennel Clubs that register fighting breeds are the American Dog Breeders Association (especially the American (Pit) Bull Terrier and the Animal Research Foundation (especially the American Bulldog).

When groups of dogs are labeled as unsafe by the press, families and pets are harmed. Dogs are turned in to shelters by frightened owners. Animal shelters have a difficult time finding new homes for the dogs because they are not willing to place the dogs with people looking for "guard" or "protection" dogs. Governments start banning pet owners from keeping dogs and insurance companies are afraid to offer home owners' policies to people who keep large dogs. :aw Suits abound and no jury pool of people that have not been convinced of the danger of various breeds is possible. Breed bans are difficult to enforce because criminals disregard the law. Dogs can't be DNA tested for breed. Even more difficult to control are mixed breeds. A harmful side effect of breed bans is an endless supply of "new" breeds. The chart below outlines a number of fighting and guard dogs, most of which are not regulated because they are constantly changing. Animal Protection Agencies (AHA, HSUS, Animal Control) prefer legal restrictions on people who train or use animals as weapons or cruelly treat or neglect any animals.

"Petey" of the Lil Rascals was an American Bull Terrier and Staffordshire Terrier (during the brief period where the breed was one) and a movie star. I know an American (Pit) Bull Terrier who pulled her owner from under a tractor and lost her own leg in the process. I don't think everyone should run out and adopt a large tough dog. These dogs are a handful. They are full of life and energy and need adequate training. But the best weapon against fear is knowledge. Unfortunately, until dog bite actuarial tables are popular reading, dogs labeled Pit Bulls will have a difficult time finding responsible and caring owners and families will have trouble keeping their pets. Law enforcement agencies will find it difficult to keep irresponsible people from owning large dogs even if bans are in place and bans will encourage importing of larger, more aggressive dogs.

The "Pit Bull" Group includes: (parentheses include breed names that are interchangeable)

Extinct Breeds Alaunt (3 types, ancient breed for fighting, hunting and guarding.)

Molossus (Coliseum Dogs, used for spectator sports)

Spanish Pointer and Spanish Alano (believed to be predecessors of guard dogs)

White Terrier (believed to be a predecessor of many bull and terrier dogs)

Mastiffs (Guard Dogs used for catching and holding poachers) Neapolitan Mastiff (also called Italian Mastiff), Dogue de Bordeaux and larger Doguin de Bordeaux (French Mastiffs), Fila Brasilario (Brazilian Mastiff), Dogo Argentina (Argentinian Mastiff), Presa Canario (Canary Island Dog), Cane Corso

Bull Dogs (some too small for guard work) English Bulldog , French Bulldog, Boxer, Alapahoola Blue Blood (Hog herding dog), American Bulldog (recreation of old style Bulldog for agility), Olde Bulldogge (also a recreation of the old style bulldog for guarding work), Victorian Bulldog

Bull and Terrier Dogs Boston Terrier (very small), American (Pit) Bull Terrier (Registered by UKC), (English) Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, (American) Staffordshire Terrier (AKC), (English) Staffordshire Bull Terrier

Fighting Dogs Chinese Shar Pei (Chinese Fighting Dog, became almost extinct when western fighting dogs entered China but brought back to popularity as a pet because of it's unusual wrinkled skin.), Chow Chow ( used for guarding and as food), Akita (Japanese Fighting Dog), Tosa Inu (Japanese Mastiff)

Crosses of above (Swinford) Bandog (American Mastiff) cross between male American (Pit) Bull Terrier and female Neapolitan,

[AdamB]

once the pitbull locks its jaw there is no easy way to handle

Pitbulls cannot "lock" their jaws. If a pit does attack, most of the time another dog, an informed owner knows to either use a stick behind the rear teeth to open the mouth enough to loosen the bite and to prevent the dog from biting again, or to use the leash in the same manner. The problem is not the dogs physical build (their jaws are not really any stronger than any other dog), but their single-mindedness. You have to break their concentration.

ABPTs, by their nature, ARE extremely dog-agressive (which is not the same as being aggressive towards humans), as are most terriers. The AKC used to "spar" larger terriers (Kerry Blues, Wheatons, Airdales, etc), ie: placing them in the center of the show ring, and how they react was considered in the judges overall show placement. A dog being passive actually hurt that dog's chances - they wanted the dogs to go into a "state of readiness" and to show dog-agression without actually attacking.

[GoSkins561]

Basset Hounds whewie, you want to talk about some mean dogs, why arnt they on the list?

[rincewind]

people, here are the true facts:

Dog Breeds

[Predicto]

http://www.pethelp.net/pits.html

These dogs are large and muscular and can be difficult to control as adults if they are not trained to respond to their owner's commands. Guarding dogs all have large heads and jaws. Dog bites from larger breeds are more severe than bites from smaller dogs because of the size of the injuries and the dog's ability to knock a person down during an attack. However, large dogs DO NOT ATTACK MORE OFTEN THAN SMALL DOGS. A large dog attack is just more injurious.

I have cut out the part of your post that I felt was most relevant. The part about the severity of the injuries.

[Huly]

http://www.atts.org/statistics.html

ATTS was established to:

Provide for a uniform national program of temperament testing of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs.

Conduct seminars to disseminate information to dog owners, dog breeders and evaluators (testers) concerning dog psychology, motivation, reaction and other aspects of temperament testing.

Recognize and award certificates to dogs that pass the requirements of the temperament evaluation.

Work for the betterment of all breeds of dogs.

Select, train, prepare and register temperament evaluators.

Here is the breed list!

ATTS Breed Statistics

as of December 2004

Breed Name Tested Passed Failed Percent

Afghan Hound 161 116 45 72.0%

Airedale Terrier 98 75 23 76.5%

Akbash Dog 13 11 2 84.6%

Akita 420 306 114 72.9%

Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog 6 4 2 66.7%

Alaskan Malamute 182 153 29 84.1%

American Bulldog 116 95 21 81.9%

American Eskimo 75 62 13 82.7%

American Foxhound 1 1 0 100.0%

American Pit Bull Terrier 469 391 78 83.4%

American Staffordshire Terrier 480 400 80 83.3%

American Tunnel Terrier 2 2 0 100.0%

American Water Spaniel 5 4 1 80.0%

Anatolian Shepherd Dog 24 19 5 79.2%

Australian Cattle Dog 148 113 35 76.4%

Australian Kelpie 6 5 1 83.3%

Australian Shepherd 549 442 107 80.5%

Australian Terrier 16 13 3 81.3%

Azawakh 1 1 0 100.0%

Basenji 156 103 53 66.0%

Basset Hound 32 27 5 84.4%

Beagle 55 43 12 78.2%

Bearded Collie 43 23 20 53.5%

Beauceron 10 7 3 70.0%

Bedlington Terrier 16 15 1 93.8%

Belgian Laekenois 4 4 0 100.0%

Belgian Malinois 196 176 20 89.8%

Belgian Sheepdog 449 358 91 79.7%

Belgian Tervuren 388 300 88 77.3%

Bernese Mountain Dog 149 128 21 85.9%

Bichon Frise 26 20 6 76.9%

Black and Tan Coonhound 13 13 0 100.0%

Black Russian Terrier 6 5 1 83.3%

Bloodhound 32 23 9 71.9%

Bluetick Coonhound 1 1 0 100.0%

Boerboel 5 5 0 100.0%

Border Collie 221 176 45 79.6%

Border Terrier 97 87 10 89.7%

Borzoi 94 83 11 88.3%

Boston Terrier 54 46 8 85.2%

Bouvier Des Flanders 837 707 130 84.5%

Boxer 333 282 51 84.7%

Boykin Spaniel 1 1 0 100.0%

Briard 290 232 58 80.0%

Brittany Spaniel 100 90 10 90.0%

Brussels Griffon 9 8 1 88.9%

Bull Terrier 55 50 5 90.9%

Bulldog 120 82 38 68.3%

Bullmastiff 106 80 26 75.5%

Cairn Terrier 41 29 12 70.7%

Canaan Dog 4 3 1 75.0%

Cane Corso 39 29 10 74.4%

Cao De Fila De Sao Miguel 1 0 1 0.0%

Cardigan Welsh Corgi 56 43 13 76.8%

Carolina Dog 2 2 0 100.0%

Catahoula Leopard Dog 8 6 2 75.0%

Caucasian Ovcharka 4 4 0 100.0%

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel 42 33 9 78.6%

Central Asian Ovcharka 4 3 1 75.0%

Chart Polski 1 1 0 100.0%

Chesapeake Bay Retriever 92 79 13 85.9%

Chihuahua 34 24 10 70.6%

Chinese Crested Dog 30 22 8 73.3%

Chinese Shar-Pei 201 140 61 69.7%

Chinook 8 6 2 75.0%

Chow Chow 88 61 27 69.3%

Clumber Spaniel 12 10 2 83.3%

****er Spaniel 216 176 40 81.5%

Collie 791 625 166 79.0%

Curly-Coated Retriever 163 148 15 90.8%

Dachshund (Miniature Longhaired) 21 18 3 85.7%

Dachshund (Miniature Smooth) 26 20 6 76.9%

Dachshund (Miniature Wirehaired) 19 15 4 78.9%

Dachshund (Standard Longhaired) 31 22 9 71.0%

Dachshund (Standard Smooth) 42 28 14 66.7%

Dachshund (Standard Wirehaired) 23 19 4 82.6%

Dalmatian 306 249 57 81.4%

Dandie Dinmont Terrier 7 5 2 71.4%

Doberman Pinscher 1399 1070 329 76.5%

Dogo Argentino 10 9 1 90.0%

Dogue De Bordeaux 57 40 17 70.2%

Dutch Shepherd 6 6 0 100.0%

English ****er Spaniel 59 55 4 93.2%

English Foxhound 3 2 1 66.7%

English Jack Russel Terrier 2 2 0 100.0%

English Setter 19 14 5 73.7%

English Shepherd 3 3 0 100.0%

English Springer Spaniel 136 114 22 83.8%

Estrala Mountain Dog 1 1 0 100.0%

Field Spaniel 6 4 2 66.7%

Fila Brasileiro 12 9 3 75.0%

Finnish Lapphund 6 4 2 66.7%

Finnish Spitz 10 7 3 70.0%

Flat-Coated Retriever 81 74 7 91.4%

French Bulldog 17 16 1 94.1%

German Pinscher 5 4 1 80.0%

German Shepherd Dog 2717 2250 467 82.8%

German Shorthaired Pointer 115 87 28 75.7%

German Wirehaired Pointer 17 14 3 82.4%

Giant Schnauzer 226 167 59 73.9%

Golden Retriever 659 551 108 83.6%

Gordon Setter 60 49 11 81.7%

Great Dane 229 180 49 78.6%

Great Pyrenees 127 106 21 83.5%

Greater Swiss Mountain dog 172 136 36 79.1%

Greyhound 55 44 11 80.0%

Havanese 5 5 0 100.0%

Hovawart 12 11 1 91.7%

Ibizan Hound 29 26 3 89.7%

Irish Setter 130 118 12 90.8%

Irish Terrier 10 8 2 80.0%

Irish Water Spaniel 25 22 3 88.0%

Irish Wolfhound 90 80 10 88.9%

Italian Greyhound 36 27 9 75.0%

Japanese Chin 4 4 0 100.0%

Karelian Bear Dog 2 2 0 100.0%

Keeshond 81 65 16 80.2%

Kerry Blue Terrier 49 36 13 73.5%

Komondor 7 6 1 85.7%

Kuvasz 36 28 8 77.8%

Labrador Retriever 644 587 57 91.1%

Lakeland Terrier 5 3 2 60.0%

Leonberger 14 13 1 92.9%

Lhasa Apso 26 18 8 69.2%

Lowchen 12 9 3 75.0%

Lurcher 1 1 0 100.0%

Maltese 12 10 2 83.3%

Manchester Terrier 46 40 6 87.0%

Mastiff 142 120 22 84.5%

Miniature Bull Terrier 7 7 0 100.0%

Miniature Pinscher 50 40 10 80.0%

Miniature Poodle 63 48 15 76.2%

Miniature Schnauzer 100 78 22 78.0%

Mixed Breed 680 579 101 85.1%

Neapolitan Mastiff 11 6 5 54.5%

Newfoundland 165 144 21 87.3%

Norfolk Terrier 9 8 1 88.9%

Norwegian Elkhound 121 90 31 74.4%

Norwich Terrier 13 9 4 69.2%

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever 13 8 5 61.5%

Old English Bull Dogge 2 2 0 100.0%

Old English Sheepdog 45 35 10 77.8%

Otterhound 10 7 3 70.0%

Papillon 71 56 15 78.9%

Parson Russell Terrier 54 44 10 81.5%

Pekingese 14 13 1 92.9%

Pembroke Welsh Corgi 177 139 38 78.5%

Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen 9 8 1 88.9%

Pharaoh Hound 52 42 10 80.8%

Pointer 17 15 2 88.2%

Polski Owczarek Nizinny 10 5 5 50.0%

Pomeranian 32 24 8 75.0%

Portuguese Water Dog 136 105 31 77.2%

Presa Canario 10 9 1 90.0%

Pug 35 32 3 91.4%

Puli 23 21 2 91.3%

Pungsan 2 2 0 100.0%

Rat Terrier 12 10 2 83.3%

Redbone Coonhound 4 4 0 100.0%

Rhodesian Ridgeback 213 163 50 76.5%

Rottweiler 4498 3702 796 82.3%

Russo-European Laika 2 2 0 100.0%

Saint Bernard 41 34 7 82.9%

Saluki 60 41 19 68.3%

Samoyed 272 214 58 78.7%

Schipperke 99 90 9 90.9%

Scottish Deerhound 30 27 3 90.0%

Scottish Terrier 32 21 11 65.6%

Sealyham Terrier 1 1 0 100.0%

Shetland Sheepdog 459 306 153 66.7%

Shiba Inu 23 15 8 65.2%

Shih Tzu 39 30 9 76.9%

Shiloh Shepherd 14 11 3 78.6%

Siberian Husky 271 235 36 86.7%

Silky Terrier 16 11 5 68.8%

Skye Terrier 8 3 5 37.5%

Sloughi 1 1 0 100.0%

Smooth Fox Terrier 52 39 13 75.0%

Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier 32 23 9 71.9%

Spinone Italiano 5 2 3 40.0%

Staffordshire Bull Terrier 59 55 4 93.2%

Standard Poodle 206 178 28 86.4%

Standard Schnauzer 54 35 19 64.8%

Sussex Spaniel 3 3 0 100.0%

Sweedish Vallhund 1 1 0 100.0%

Texas Heeler 1 1 0 100.0%

Tibetan Kyapso 1 1 0 100.0%

Tibetan Mastiff 13 5 8 38.5%

Tibetan Spaniel 8 7 1 87.5%

Tibetan Terrier 10 5 5 50.0%

Tosa 3 3 0 100.0%

Toy Fox terrier 8 6 2 75.0%

Toy Manchester Terrier 10 10 0 100.0%

Toy Poodle 47 38 9 80.9%

Treeing Feist 1 1 0 100.0%

Treeing Walker Coonhound 8 5 3 62.5%

Vizsla 46 38 8 82.6%

Weimaraner 202 161 41 79.7%

Welsh Sheepdog 1 1 0 100.0%

Welsh Springer Spaniel 5 5 0 100.0%

Welsh Terrier 34 26 8 76.5%

West Highland White Terrier 50 43 7 86.0%

Whippet 175 148 27 84.6%

Wire Fox Terrier 18 15 3 83.3%

Xoloitzcuintli 3 3 0 100.0%

Yorkshire Terrier 35 28 7 80.0%

[zoony]

ABPTs, by their nature, ARE extremely dog-agressive (which is not the same as being aggressive towards humans), as are most terriers. The AKC used to "spar" larger terriers (Kerry Blues, Wheatons, Airdales, etc), ie: placing them in the center of the show ring, and how they react was considered in the judges overall show placement. A dog being passive actually hurt that dog's chances - they wanted the dogs to go into a "state of readiness" and to show dog-agression without actually attacking.

If you are going to use breeding and breed history as a template to judge APBT's.... you must also concede the point that certain dogs are inherantly dangerous independent of the type of owner involved. (because of centuries of breeding to encourage aggressive and powerful characteristics)

That is the ultimate issue here, at least to me.

........

[jbooma]

The "Pit Bull" Group includes: (parentheses include breed names that are interchangeable)

Most of the dogs on these groups are breeded to not fight anymore, unlike Pit Bulls who continue to breed that way.

Look at english bulldogs, they used to be breeded to bull-bait, now they are one of the kindest breeds It took years to change though.

[Huly]

I have cut out the part of your post that I felt was most relevant. The part about the severity of the injuries.

You are right. Large dogs bite less than small dogs but large dogs bites are most often worse than small bites. Their is nothing that can change that fact. A bigger mouth has a bigger bite. That still does not mean we should ban a breed of dogs. That is still BS!

[Huly]

If you are going to use breeding and breed history as a template to judge APBT's.... you must also concede the point that certain dogs are inherantly dangerous independent of the type of owner involved. (because of centuries of breeding to encourage aggressive and powerful characteristics)

That is the ultimate issue here, at least to me.

........

Do not even get me started on Breeders. :doh: Some are amazing breeders who respect the breed but some should be hung! Look at what "inbreeding" has done to a lot of breeds. And anyone who owns a puppy mill needs to be shot!

[jbooma]

You are right. Large dogs bite less than small dogs but large dogs bites are most often worse than small bites. Their is nothing that can change that fact. A bigger mouth has a bigger bite. That still does not mean we should ban a breed of dogs. That is still BS!

It isn't just the bigger bite it is how they bite, the locking jaw, etc...

What people fail to realize not every Pitt that has mauled a kid had a bad owner. The incident here in VA the owner was a good one, and the dog was a nice dog, something though made it get in a rage and maul a kid down the street.

[AdamB]

You have made some good points in this thread but the comparison to guns is not one of them. Completely different issue.

I have a handgun that, under no circumstances, would jump out of its case and go attack the neighbors kids.

Just not going to happen. Bad analogy man.

.....

Actually, there are similairties between the two, but my point was mainly in that, most ABPTs are not going to up and attack someone either, unless they came from a bad breeder or bad owner. In the hands of a responsible owner, a gun is tenth as dangerous to own as a gun owned by a bad (irresponsible) owner.

Banning handguns in DC did nothing to help the crime rate, and neither would banning a breed. Bad owners will still find away to own agressive large dogs, just like criminals will still find a way to own handguns.

Yes, accidents happend. A responsible gun owner forgets one time to lock their gun case and a curious kids gets a hold of it, etc. Even if a dog (any dog) is owned by a good owner, a dog can just bad tempered or have problems (again, like Sudden Rage Syndrome in terriers).

Those who are against banning handguns argue that we should be going after the criminals, stop back-alley gun sales, and promote education instead of going after the guns themselves and hurting responsible owners.

The same argument applies to ABPTs and other breeds - we should be going after bad owners (I like what Fairfax County is doing, thanks for the link Huly), stopping backyard breeders who sell to anyone, and educate those who want to own one of these dogs, instead of going after the breed and hurting responsible owners, which has been shown to be ineffective anyways.

Kinda see why I was making the gun anology? Not the same thing (dog vs gun), I understand that, but many of the same mindsets and solutions are the same, or at least very similar.

[Huly]

It isn't just the bigger bite it is how they bite, the locking jaw, etc...

What people fail to realize not every Pitt that has mauled a kid had a bad owner. The incident here in VA the owner was a good one, and the dog was a nice dog, something though made it get in a rage and maul a kid down the street.

That is a myth!

See below;

http://www.dogwatch.net/myths/lock_jaw.html

The Locking Jaw

The most common myth about 'pit bull' dogs is that their jobs lock. This is untrue.

Breeds like the American Pit Bull Terrier do have very powerful jaws, and this is where this myth comes from. However, the jaw does not 'lock' - and you cannot get the jaw to 'lock' through abusive actions such as breaking the jaw. (yes, we have heard from people who believe this is how you get a 'locking jaw' and we have incredibly sympathy for any animals they own.)

On this topic Dr. 1. Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia wrote:

"The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of "locking mechanism" unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

The 'pit bull' has powerful jaws, but they are not alone in this. This is yet another myth - that 'pit bulls' are more dangerous because they have the most powerful bite. Most large breeds and cross breeds have a very strong bite, and even smaller dogs can inflict a bite powerful enough to kill. Any dogs can be dangerous in the hands or an irresponsible, negligent or abusive owner.

http://www.austinlostpets.com/kidskorner/2October/pitbull.htm

The infamous locking jaw is a myth. The American Pit Bull Terrier and related breeds are physiologically no different from any other breed of dog. All dogs are from the same species and none have locking jaws. Dr. I Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." Furthermore, Dr. Brisbin states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

[qcraftsman]

Me and my wife have a 3 1/2 year old Pit Bull and a 2 year old mixed boxer/mutt. We are very responsible people with our dogs first off. A dog will react to people and other dogs from how they are trained from the owners. Our dogs know we are there Master and Owner and they respect us from how we have raised them. My mother in law has 2 Labs and both our dogs love them and the love playing together. When ever my Pit Bull has come in to contact with other people or dogs he simply wags his tail like krazy and tries his best to maul you with his tongue by licking you to death. ha ha ha

Pits, Rots, etc... are going to be agressive if your not a responsible owner and train them the right way. Its just like kids. When parents today don't give discipline to there children then you know what happens. They become aggressive and always get in trouble.

Don't get me wrong there are a lot of aggressive dogs that need to be dealt with and it is because of the stupid unresponsible owners out there that have no reason to be an animal owner. Thats all I wanted to say...

[GoSkins561]

Pit Bulls are dangerous, I see your argument about why dogs can be mean, lets face the facts, they are always on the news for attacking people. Something needs to be done, I dont trust Pit Bulls, and I use to own one. He was the nicest dog ever, however you could look him in the eyes, like most pit bulls and realize he was'nt all there. If any one has been around a PitBull, you will know what about what I am talking about.

[AdamB]

Good point, one I alluded to myself.

I'm sure that a Tiger or Lion could be gentle and sweet and great to have as a pet if you train it properly and take the proper precautions... as can dobermans, german shepherds, rotties, and pits. But make no mistake, all these animals have a tendancy towards aggressiveness if gone unchecked.

So why shouldn't the criteria to own one be the same?

........

Because most breeds of dogs have existed as domesticated animals for 100 years + (or in the case of some dogs, such as some breeds of mastiffs, for thousands of years) while a tiger or bear most likely is only 1 or 2 generations removed from being a wild animal, if that, there for their instincts are still almost completely that of when they were in the wild, were man = food or competition.

But again, most good ABPT owners do not have a problem with chipping their dogs, making sure they are trained, registering their dogs, etc. which is what you are promoting the above.

The problem is that many just want an outright ban, or kill them all attitude, which does nothing to solve the problem.

[jbooma]

Huly I worked at the sheriff office for 3 years, maybe the dogs don't lock their jaw but the only way they were able to get the dog to release a couple of times was by shooting it.

Once one of these dogs lock-in it is hard to get them off, compared to others.

[Huly]

Pit Bulls are dangerous, I see your argument about why dogs can be mean, lets face the facts, they are always on the news for attacking people. Something needs to be done, I dont trust Pit Bulls, and I use to own one. He was the nicest dog ever, however you could look him in the eyes, like most pit bulls and realize he was'nt all there. If any one has been around a PitBull, you will know what about what I am talking about.

I can look in my Basset Hounds eyes and you can see their is nothing there too! :laugh:

ALL PETS ARE DANGEROUS!!!!!!!