Any use for these dogs anymore?

[jbooma]

No Booma, it is NOT the breed, but the owners.

Here are the statistics for fatalities in Pit Bull deaths compared to Rotties over the last six year stretch in which data is available. . .

93-94

Pitbull Deaths-5

Rottie Deaths-10

95-96

Pitbull Deaths-4

Rottie Deaths-10

97-98

Pitbull Deaths-6

Rottie Deaths-10

There are more pitbull deaths in the 80's, but then again, that was when the breed was in the top 3 breeds in the country. . . mostly due to the Spuds MaKensie beer commercial dog. Now, pitbulls rank second to rotties, and I don't hear people saying they should ban rotties do you?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

chom there have been at least 5+ incidents the last couple of months, that is a growing trend

sorry but i see a problem when the owner just leaves the dog outside and then it kills, no dog should just maul people just because it is left outside, that is a problem

do you even understand what happens once they bite and lock their jaws? ask any cop about them, the only way to get the dog to release is kill them or beat them up, and sometimes by then it is to late

[jbooma]

Surprisingly the ****er Spaniel's have the highest bite record. I would rather see a Rotti or a Pitt come in the vet clinic any day rather than a ****er.

Also no matter what kind of dog you have if it is in a "pack" mentality anything can happen.

a bite is different then mauling kids or people, sorry but biting to defend and biting to kill are different

[zoony]

Heh heh. Ever try to stop a bit bull from eating a child? Talk to a cop about the impact unloading their revolver into one of this breed and you'll start to get a feeling for why they need to be breed out of existance.

.

To AdamB's point, I don't think the cops are dealing with Pit Bulls here. APBT's are fairly notorious for being good around people... but they will attack any dog they see without hesitation.

It is the cross breeding and hybrid pit bulls that you have to watch out for.

.....

[zoony]

a bite is different then mauling kids or people, sorry but biting to defend and biting to kill are different

agreed. ****er spaniels will nip the hell out of you, as will many small dogs such as daschunds... but to say that they pose more of a threat than a rotty or a pit is a stretch, to say the least.

..........

[jbooma]

I do think there needs to be some sort of biting law, meaning if your dog bites to kill then you should pay for it, and I am not talking about a fine.

I love rotties but after my experience will never get one again. Unlike others I am a good owner, and even with me Dirk bit, he was a mix though.

[Predicto]

No Booma, it is NOT the breed, but the owners.

Here are the statistics for fatalities in Pit Bull deaths compared to Rotties over the last six year stretch in which data is available. . .

93-94

Pitbull Deaths-5

Rottie Deaths-10

95-96

Pitbull Deaths-4

Rottie Deaths-10

97-98

Pitbull Deaths-6

Rottie Deaths-10

There are more pitbull deaths in the 80's, but then again, that was when the breed was in the top 3 breeds in the country. . . mostly due to the Spuds MaKensie beer commercial dog. Now, pitbulls rank second to rotties, and I don't hear people saying they should ban rotties do you?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Spuds McKensie was not a pit bull. He was a much smaller and less aggressive English Bull Terrier.

[webnarc]

To AdamB's point, I don't think the cops are dealing with Pit Bulls here. APBT's are fairly notorious for being good around people... but they will attack any dog they see without hesitation.

It is the cross breeding and hybrid pit bulls that you have to watch out for.

.....

That my very well be the case. So let's just breed the pit-bull out of existance so we don't have to deal with the hybrid models either; they aren't too good for the environment anyway.

[Huly]

HERE WE GO AGAIN! I just read this entire thread and it is BS.

First you have to look at the "pack mentality". That alone (no matter what the breed will cause issues and injuries. Esp. If they are wild dogs. That was the main issues with the article not the breed.

You can try to compare dogs you have owned your entire life but you know how your dogs were raised. Dogs living on the street, those abused or neglected, and those trained to be "guard dogs" are nothing like a well maintained family pet.

Example 1- Basset Hounds- They are known to be scent hounds that are lazy sweet and drool. These dogs become food aggressive when starved or dumped. If a person does not know how to control food aggression this behavior can turn into anything. Example of this being possessive of toys etc.

Example 2- Chelsea (my Shepherd Rotti Mix) was abused as a puppy. Being the Breed she is she is also a highly intelligent dog that weighs more than I do. She is also fearful of men due to being abused. I have had to stay two steps ahead of her due to her size, intelligence, and abuse. She is now 13 and has never bitten anyone and not because I sheltered her from the world. She went everywhere with me and I eventually worked with her till she could even be off lead at the beach etc where men were at. It took my knowledge and the time I put into her to get her that way.

Example 3- You never hear anyone complain about the Sharpei. They are the cousin of the Pit Bull and they are very aggressive. I had to put mine down about 2 years ago at the age of 14. Rip was dumped at my house by my cousin (an idiot dog owner). He was trained to be a guard dog and he was one of the most aggressive dogs I have ever met in the beginning. I came home from high school one day and I was too scared to walk in my house (that lasted about 5 minutes). I walked in and Rip was down the hall all teeth and growling. I stood at the other end of the hall and was flicking dog treats to him. After a week of working with him he was constantly by my side. I then had to socialize him with people and other animals. This took time and had to do this step by step. Rip eventually was a sweet heart and you could do anything to him. The vet I worked for would stitch his eyelids (Sharpei Eye issues) and Rip would not flinch, nor require sedation. He could then go to the park and run around and he two went with me everywhere. Him and Chelsea had free run of the vet clinic.

As you can see these behaviors are learned not bred! You also need to research a BREED before you get one. Not every Breed is right for every person. People who do not know how to handle animals like this should NOT get them. Both of my dogs out weighed me but I had control of them 100% of the time. Mine also had issues between abuse and training but I controlled it as I KNOW HOW TO HANDLE that kind of animal. Large Breed dogs get a bad rap sheet for biting most of it is due to owner neglect and improper care. Also their bites do more damage. Small Breed dogs are your most common biters though they just do not get the rap like large breeds due to their bite wounds are so small. How is that fair?

[Huly]

The arguement about "no bad dogs, just bad owners" is a load. I dont own and have never owned a dog. I do read the newspaper and watch the news. I hear of 2 breeds of dogs that kill people. 2, thats it.

So. why is owning one of these 2 specific breeds of dogs so damn important that you are willing to risk the safety of people around you? You simply CANT get by with another dog? You HAVE to have these dogs? What is so special about them, other than you think they make you look tough? I dont get it.

Outlaw'em, its just not worth it.

Once again that is all you hear! You do not hear of Cat scratch fever killing anyone or small dogs biting a small child etc. The media is a bunch of BS! Before you try to outlaw any breed get the facts first. Go volunteer at a SPCA or Humane Society or even a Rescue!

[webnarc]

HERE WE GO AGAIN! I just read this entire thread and it is BS.

Small Breed dogs are your most common biters though they just do not get the rap like large breeds due to their bite wounds are so small. How is that fair?

I can kill a small dog in a heart beat, I'll have a lot more difficultly with a larger dog, particularly one that is breed to attack and kill.

[zoony]

Huly that is all well and good but you are missing the larger issue.

I think it is a safe assumption to say that the average owner (i.e. your 'idiot dog owner' in your post) doesn't spend 1/10 the amount of time with their pets that you do.

People are being attacked, pets are being attacked, and in many cases people are being killed by these animals.

Yet you think it is 'BS' for certain breeds to be regulated or restricted? Fact is, idiots are buying these dogs every day, and not taking the time to train them properly or even worse, encouraging inherent agressive behavior.

Because... let's be honest here... trained professionals at Sea World keep Killer Whales as pets. Obviously, if you know what you are doing and have the time and resources at hand, you can train a killer whale to do tricks and be gentle. But that doesn't mean that they should be available to the public. :doh:

Do you understand this point of view, independent of your personal experiences with dogs?

...

[Huly]

Has anyone here had any of these breeds???

I had a Rottie-Shepard mix, most beautiful dog I have owned (untill my engish bulldog of course). This dog was a great dog, however he became very aggressive when others tried to pet him near his mouth, and bit a few of my friends. I though nothing of it untill he bit me on my hand, then I knew I had to put him to sleep.

Yes it might the owners, but I hate to say this there is something about these dogs as well.

For everyone that shows a report that says a lab will have more bites, first compare how many labs there are to rotties or pitts, second compare how many labs are mauling kids or people, there is a difference and it is time to wake up.

The first pic is Chelsea a Shepherd rotti mix

The second pic is Rip a Sharpei.

[Huly]

I can kill a small dog in a heart beat, I'll have a lot more difficultly with a larger dog, particularly one that is breed to attack and kill.

actually once again you are wrong. Their are ways to handle any situation big breed or small breed that are simple and easy! Also depending on the circumstance you could go to jail for trying this!

[AdamB]

The arguement about "no bad dogs, just bad owners" is a load. I dont own and have never owned a dog. I do read the newspaper and watch the news. I hear of 2 breeds of dogs that kill people. 2, thats it.

You only hear about 2 dogs because those are the 2 breeds that are getting TV ratings.

"****er Spaniel severly injures child" - ya, whatever, where's the remote.

"Pit Bull mauls child" and you have at least 3 or 4 more stories out of it.

Most dog attacks, fatal or not, do not get reported. If the family dog turns on the owners (such as Sudden Rage Syndrome, common in terriers and retrievers), many owners just take it to the pound after a trip to the doctor.

When I was 8, my friend's dog (border collie mix) too a chunk out of the back of my leg which required stitches, etc. There was no reason for the attack, and it never attacked anyone else, something just set it off. There was no news stories ("Border Collie Attacks Child! Story at 11!"), and after animal control verified it had its shots, as long as my parents did not press charges, nothing happend (which they didn't).

But because of the prevailing feelings about "pit bulls", if the dog even looks at someone funny, they are on the phone to animal control. There are false reports filed (ie: someone did not like the pit in the neighborhood, even if it was a great dog, so they say the dog went after them). The media hears "pit bull" and its like a feeding frenzy.

Example, again, is the woman who was killed in San Fran a few years back and made national news. The authorities knew the two dogs where not pit bulls, but cane corsos (or presnas, cannot remember which it was), an unrelated breed, yet it took a month before news outlets quit refering to it as a "pit bull" attack. And not only where they not pit bulls, but the previous owners, clients of the two attornies who had the dogs at the time of the attack, trained and used them to guard a meth lab, and on top of that the dogs were sexually abused - seems like bad owners to me.

On top of that, anytime a dog attacks a person, and if the dog is barrel chested etc, and the breed cannot be confirmed, it is listed as a "pit bull" attack. Again, everything from boxers to labs have been listed as a "pit bull" in stories about attacks. One article I read a few years back about a fatal attack on a child said it was a pit bull attack when in fact it was a friggin Boston Terrier.

Yes, if a ABPT attacks someone, usually it will be worse. They do not bite any harder than any other large dog, nor are they more aggressive, but one of their "natural" traits is to be very single-minded. Once they set their mind to it, they will not stop once it is done, whether that is pulling a sled 3 times their weight in a competetion, or protecting their owner, or finding earthquake victims, etc. And that trait is excellent for those activities - and horrible if some jerk wants it to be mean, or some puppy mill mass produces the dogs no matter their temperment, or some backyard breeder wants 90 pound pits instead of the 30 pounds they were meant to be.

Bad owners have created the problems, not the breed itself.

[Destino]

There are such things as bad dogs, and there are bad owners. A combination of both leads to tragedy, but more often then not a bad person creates a bad dog.

If you have a dangerous breed of dog, and make no mistake this means any dog large enough to hurt someone, then you as an owner are responsible for training the animal. If you get a large breed and do not have the animal trained, you are creating a dangerous situation for both the dog and others.

The thing is most people think training involved telling the dog "no" and that is incorrect. Large breeds need to be trained very well to listen to owners commands and not attack. This requires far more then the occasional whack on the rear and a stern no. This requires a lot of time, effort, and consistency.

Dangerous dogs, those that are very aggressive, are usually not accidental. Cruel ****s that use them for illegal dog fighting intentionally breed many of these dogs to be this way. Irresponsible breeders that don’t bother with checking the temperment also create dangerous animals. Also good dogs are often made to be bad dogs by jerks that treat them horribly. Some stupid people actually want their dogs to be aggressive towards other humans and serve as guard animals.

When cases like this one come up a few things immediately jump out at me. Why are the dogs roaming in packs? This is a dangerous situation that no responsible dog owner would ever allow. Why does this person have so many dogs that have not been trained and are not supervised? People can blame the dogs all they want but these are sure signs of a bad owner.

Most of the time it is the owners fault.

[Predicto]

Small Breed dogs are your most common biters though they just do not get the rap like large breeds due to their bite wounds are so small. How is that fair?

It is fair because of the potential consequences. If a Pit Bull or worse, a pack of them loses it, even just one time, something or someone could very well die. If a Spaniel loses it, you get a small bite and then you punt the dog across the street.

[webnarc]

actually once again you are wrong. Their are ways to handle any situation big breed or small breed that are simple and easy! Also depending on the circumstance you could go to jail for trying this!

Oh the irony that I'd get jail time while the deadbeat owner gets nothing.

But seriously thought, explain how I'm wrong - that I could kill a small dog easier than a big dog. Give me something to chew on .

[Predicto]

When I was 8, my friend's dog (border collie mix) too a chunk out of the back of my leg which required stitches, etc. There was no reason for the attack, and it never attacked anyone else, something just set it off. There was no news stories ("Border Collie Attacks Child! Story at 11!"), and after animal control verified it had its shots, as long as my parents did not press charges, nothing happend (which they didn't).

The difference is that if it had been a Pit Bull, the new story might have been "Pit Bull KILLS Child! Story at 11!" Getting a couple stiches in the back of your leg is nothing to what a Pit can do to you.

[AdamB]

As you can see these behaviors are learned not bred! You also need to research a BREED before you get one. Not every Breed is right for every person. People who do not know how to handle animals like this should NOT get them. Both of my dogs out weighed me but I had control of them 100% of the time. Mine also had issues between abuse and training but I controlled it as I KNOW HOW TO HANDLE that kind of animal. Large Breed dogs get a bad rap sheet for biting most of it is due to owner neglect and improper care. Also their bites do more damage. Small Breed dogs are your most common biters though they just do not get the rap like large breeds due to their bite wounds are so small. How is that fair?

:applause:

Exactly. That is why I have no problems with regulating ownership (but NOT banning) the breed, at least for the time being. Some people should NEVER own a large dog, be it a pit bull or not. Hell, many people should not own dogs at all.

I love ABPTs. I think they are great dogs, yet I do not own one. Why? They are big balls of energy that require alot of exercise otherwise they get bored and use your couch as the world's largest chew toy. My wife and I are computer gaming nuts, and do not have the activity level necessary for owning one - they are not right for us or us for them.

How did I know not to get a ABPT when we were looking for a dog? Same way I also know most shepards, etc. are not right for us either - I took the time to actually get information instead of just going to the shelter and saying "I want that one". While my reseach had me convinced I wanted one, it also showed me I shouldn't get one. Many pit bull owners get the dog because of their looks, or reputation, not because they actually know a thing about the breed itself.

Instead I got a bull mastiff from a rescue. The breed has the attributes I wanted (good personality in general, size, etc), but, once they reach 4 or 5, they become very low activity, which is what we needed at the time, living in a townhouse with no real yard and our own activity levels. We refer to Madison as the "160 pound throw-rug", and that is pretty much how the breed is. She is 11 now, ancient for her breed, still gets up and plays for a bit every day, and is easily the best dog I have ever owned (I grew up around dogs, my mom breeding Wheaton Terriers as well as being a foster home for the local shelter).

And as far as those who just want to get rid of all of the Rotties and Pits - where does it end? The slime will just move on to other dogs. Dobermans, German Shepards, Chows, Sharpei, Cane Corsos, Presnas will be next, then when those are banned, they will move on to Bullmastiffs, American Bulldogs, so on and so forth. Trust me, any dog, in the hands of bad owners, can become dangerous. Do you really think that a person cannot make a Golden Retriever or Border Collie into a dangerous dog if they so choose?

[Huly]

Huly that is all well and good but you are missing the larger issue.

I think it is a safe assumption to say that the average owner (i.e. your 'idiot dog owner' in your post) doesn't spend 1/10 the amount of time with their pets that you do.

People are being attacked, pets are being attacked, and in many cases people are being killed by these animals.

Yet you think it is 'BS' for certain breeds to be regulated or restricted? Fact is, idiots are buying these dogs every day, and not taking the time to train them properly or even worse, encouraging inherent agressive behavior.

Because... let's be honest here... trained professionals at Sea World keep Killer Whales as pets. Obviously, if you know what you are doing and have the time and resources at hand, you can train a killer whale to do tricks and be gentle. But that doesn't mean that they should be available to the public. :doh:

Do you understand this point of view, independent of your personal experiences with dogs?

...

Yes I understand that and I agree with you. My issue is the dog itself should not be banned and respectful owners should not be persecuted for owning these type of dogs. We do need higher standards and regulation for owning pets. In Basset Hound Rescue (which I hold 5 titles for) we go through Breed specific and Hound specific description before any hound is placed as all of them have different aspects. We hold the hound for 2 weeks before placing it to see what behaviors it has etc. We also have licensed dog trainers etc that help adoptive parents throughout the adoption process and even go to schools to teach children proper care of a pet. GoodDogz.org also offers free training to new pet owners. I would not even mind if before you adopted a large breed dog that you were required to take a training/handeling class. I would encourage that for any breed.

But should I not have had the opportunity to own Chelsea and Rip? If the dogs were outlawed then that would have been the case!

[Huly]

Oh the irony that I'd get jail time while the deadbeat owner gets nothing.

But seriously thought, explain how I'm wrong - that I could kill a small dog easier than a big dog. Give me something to chew on .

The deadbeat owner deserves to get hung in my book. I have put many people behind bars and issued fines for being an idiot owner. I am glad that we are finally giving out harder penalties for abuse and neglect. That is something I fight for daily.

As for killing any dog it is simple depending on what you have at the scene. It takes just as much pressure to wring any dogs neck or to hit them with a shovel. No I do not condone that but it does!

I actuyally like what Fairfax County is doing with dog bites. Check this site out.

http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/police/animalservices/dangerous.htm

[jbooma]

Small Breed dogs are your most common biters though they just do not get the rap like large breeds due to their bite wounds are so small. How is that fair?

Biting and mauling are different, that is what we are saying, these dogs are not just biting they are mauling people, have you seen what they have done to some innocent people, it isn't pretty. Some of the owners of these dogs are not as terrible as you think.

[jbooma]

actually once again you are wrong. Their are ways to handle any situation big breed or small breed that are simple and easy! Also depending on the circumstance you could go to jail for trying this!

once the pitbull locks its jaw there is no easy way to handle

[AdamB]

The difference is that if it had been a Pit Bull, the new story might have been "Pit Bull KILLS Child! Story at 11!" Getting a couple stiches in the back of your leg is nothing to what a Pit can do to you.

That dog, or any dog, does not have to be a pit bull to severally injure or kill a person, especially a child. Young children are severly injured or killed by "toy" breeds. Terriers, especially the large ones, can and do kill people. The Soviet army used terriers (true terriers, not ABPTs) as attack and guard dogs (btw, the breed they developed for this specifically is now AKC recognized and being bred in the US, yet no one seems to know, or care, what their "insticts" might be).

My point is ANY dog is potentially dangerous. It seems ABPTs are more so primarily because they appeal to the jerks because of their looks and rep, and because the media reports any and all potential "pit bull" attacks, while passing over attacks by other dogs since it is not newsworthy/fear-mongering. And not all "pit bull" attacks are serious or fatal, most are not any worse than any other large dog (large = 80#+).

But hey! Lets say those who want the breed gone are 100% right - I am assuming handguns will be banned cross-country as well? I mean, hey, if a pit bulls only pupose is to be aggressive, and the only real purpose of a handgun is to take life, then it must be about the same, right? If a pitbull in the wrongs hands is extremely dangerous, isn't a handgun in the wrong hands also extremely dangerous? If ya get bit by a ****er spaniel, its not nearly as bad as a pit bull bite, right? Well, if I get shot by a BB gun, its not nearly as bad as a .38, right?

Nope, that would be dumb. Why? Handguns, in the right hands, are a source of protection, recreation, etc. And as people like pointing out, most gun owners do not go on shooting rampages, etc. Well, guess what, same thing as a pitbull (or any large dog) - bad owners = danger. Bad gun owner = danger.Yes, a dog has a mind of its own while a gun does not, but if an owner trains or abuses their dogs, those dogs minds make no more a distinction between right and wrong than a mindless gun.

Regulate them, get them out of the hands of bad owners, and punish those who, through intent or neglect, allow their dogs, pit bull or not, injure/kill people. Once you start blaming a breed, you move the focus to the symptom (the dog) and away from the disease itself (the owners and puppymills).

[Kilmer17]

There is a reason most homeowners insurance companies wont insure you if you have certain breeds of dogs.

FWIW, my folks ****er spaniel bit my ear and I needed 2 stictches.

If I see a lab loose in my yard, I'll call animal control, or most likely simply walk up to it and check if they have a collar/id.

If I see a Pit or Rott in my yard, Im getting my gun.