Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[goskins10]

13 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

It's ok, I have trouble tempering my varied responses to varied responses, why I stepped away after game, just too crazy in here.

 

To clarify, its not that think jay isn't the problem, I don't think he's the main problem.  This is a jay thread but this is bigger then jay.  There have been reports about his frustration in personal decisions, so I don't think it's fair for posters to come in a pile on blaming him for that.

 

I'm perfectly fine criticizing him for what I believe he has control over, I do that a lot in game day thread, then try to step back the next day.

 

At this point if he does not have any control over personnel decisions then he does not have the right respect. Is that his fault? Probably not. But it still means he has to go. That is not going to change. 

 

Also, I do not think anyone sees Jay as the only problem. There is plenty of blame to go around. But as you said, this is the Jay thread and it's celar that he is at least some major part of the problem.  

[Renegade7]

30 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

At this point if he does not have any control over personnel decisions then he does not have the right respect. Is that his fault? Probably not. But it still means he has to go. That is not going to change. 

 

Also, I do not think anyone sees Jay as the only problem. There is plenty of blame to go around. But as you said, this is the Jay thread and it's celar that he is at least some major part of the problem.  

 

As head coach I can't argue he doesn't hold large responsibility, and I'm not.  However I don't see how anyone can look at how bruce disrespected Scott and say him not respecting Jay is jays fault.  All I'm saying if we are going to go after jay it should about what he has control over.

[PartyPosse]

12 hours ago, Peregrine said:

I think thats a myth.

 

That core only looks good because of what McVay turned them into.  Goff was trash and Gurley was terrible before McVay showed up.  That defense?  23rd in points allowed prior to McVay.  They have already won more games through week 5 of this season, than they did in the season before McVay showed up.

Goff was basically a rookie who played less than half a season prior to McVay. Dude was a #1 overall pick and you call him trash because he didn’t immediately light it up. What if Mahomes played last year aside from that last game and sucked, would he have been trash too? Gurley was having a rough year because of the QB effect, but he’s one of the three best RB in football and prior to last year he was dominant. The defense also went out and signed a bunch of big names including Talib, Suh and Peters to go along with already having the best defensive player in football. 

 

Your comparison is poor.

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

As head coach I can't argue he doesn't hold large responsibility, and I'm not.  However I don't see how anyone can look at how bruce disrespected Scott and say him not respecting Jay is jays fault.  All I'm saying if we are going to go after jay it should about what he has control over.

 

So if he holds large responsibility, it's fair to be critical. I don't think anyone is laying 100% of the personnel on him. But he owns a large portion of it. 

 

Also - and this is the bigger point - let's say there is a problem with talent. He does 100% control how prepared the players he has are. And that has been really inconsistent over the years. Coming out playing great one game but then crap the next is not about talent. It's about getting players ready, making adjustments, and getting the most out of the players they have. He is not doing that. 

 

I like Jay. And I agree the circumstances are probably holding him back to a certain extent. But these last 4 games have been brutal. Great AZ game. A complete dud against the Colts. Great again against GB. Then complete crap against NO - maybe the worst game of his time here. Getting beat can be about talent. Coming out flat, uninspired, making foolish errors is about coaches getting guys ready. That is just not happening on a consistent basis. 

 

If the guys were playing theirs hearts out but just got beat by a better team, OK. But they came out like it didn't matter. Especially after the tiniest bit of adversity. The team overall is mentally weak and it starts with the HC and his staff. 

 

 

[JoggingGod]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

He has actually done a fairly decent job of bringing the team out of total hell.

No he hasn't actually.

2014: 4-12, just as bad a year as 2014
2015/2016: Relegated playcalling duties to Sean McVay, offense has tons of success. Defense is historically bad thanks to his hire of Joe Barry.

2017: Offensive playcalling declines without McVay, Cousins is forced to carry a god awful, injured roster to 7 wins

2018: Team looks average at best, atrocious at worst on both sides of the ball, his new QB is an overpaid checkdown machine

 

Yeah Jay hasn't really transformed our team. Sure he brought some talent on and we haven't been bottom of the barrel yet, but that's where the future of this franchise is heading thanks to the Alex Smith trade.

[PartyPosse]

17 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

i like Jay. And I agree the circumstances are probably holding him back to a certain extent. But these last 4 games have been brutal. Great AZ game. A complete dud against the Colts. Great again against GB. Then complete crap against NO - maybe the wort game of his time here. Getting eat can be about talent. Coming out flat, uninspired, making foolish errors is about coaches getting guys ready. That is just not happening on a consistent basis. 

 

 

He’s basically the Blake Bortles of coaching.

[Skinsinparadise]

I thought they had an arrogant off season judging by how they approached FA, the stuff that they supposedly told beat guys about how they have this great roster -- you can sense it from Doug too in some of his interviews -- he's a super nice guy but you can tell they felt pretty good about themselves.  Then the comments about no doubt Alex is an upgrade over Kirk from Jay.  Dan saying Alex is a breath of fresh air (compared to what?).  And people in the FO leaking to beat guys about how Alex is better than Kirk -- better leader, Doctson will bloom better with him because he's more willing to throw 50-50 balls.  On and on and on.

 

I am not saying they are wrong.  Time will tell.  But its not off to the best start.  Wrong thus far about QB.  Wrong thus far about sitting on 10 million in cap space when they have a hole as big as Montana at LG.  Wrong a year ago when Bruce said they replaced almost the same level of production in losing D. Jax and Garcon with Quick and Pryor.  

 

How much has Jay played into all of this?  I don't know.  If Chris Russell is correct Jay was frustrated by their FA approach this year.  And according to one insider on the board, Jay wanted a different player than who was picked in the first (though Payne looks good). My point I don't get the sense that Jay is always on the same page as the FO. 

 

As for Jay himself.  He needs to work out the kinks of the inconsistentcy -- the team can bounce back from a loss but can't deal with the high of a win and lose their edge.  I put that more on the leaders in the locker room than Jay.  Can you imagine for example a team with guys like London Fletcher in the locker room would allow that?  John Keim in a facebook post said he heard from someone who knows the Redskins roster/culture well before the Saints game that he thought the team would lose -- combination of the high of the GB win and coming off of the bye so they wouldn't play with an edge.  I am tired of that specifically.   Is that all on Jay?  I don't think so.  But it needs to be fixed this season and if not I get it if he's let go.   but if Bruce's isn't gone too it would be a travesty IMO.

 

Having said that, I bet people will be happier on this thread on Monday -- because I think they win.  And the feel good vibes return.  But lets win two in a row.   It's a weird mindset that this team can't get over itself after a win.  Wacky to me.  But I've commented on it before in previous seasons.  I've said before Stephen Smith is a buffoon but he doesn't look that foolish with his yearly segment about how no team in the NFL has a harder time dealing with prosperity like the Redskins. 

 

 

 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, JoggingGod said:

No he hasn't actually.

2014: 4-12, just as bad a year as 2014
2015/2016: Relegated playcalling duties to Sean McVay, offense has tons of success. Defense is historically bad thanks to his hire of Joe Barry.

2017: Offensive playcalling declines without McVay, Cousins is forced to carry a god awful, injured roster to 7 wins

2018: Team looks average at best, atrocious at worst on both sides of the ball, his new QB is an overpaid checkdown machine

 

Yeah Jay hasn't really transformed our team. Sure he brought some talent on and we haven't been bottom of the barrel yet, but that's where the future of this franchise is heading thanks to the Alex Smith trade.

 

Excuses to try and negate we went from perennial cellar dwellers to at least middle of the road. It's the best 3 yr period we have had since Gibbs and even before Gibbs 2. You can pile on and make excuses why he had nothing to do with it but then you also need to stop blaming him for everything now Can't have it both ways. 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I thought they had an arrogant off season judging by how they approached FA, the stuff that they supposedly told beat guys about how they have this great roster -- you can sense it from Doug too in some of his interviews -- he's a super nice guy but you can tell they felt pretty good about themselves.  Then the comments about no doubt Alex is an upgrade over Kirk from Jay.  Dan saying Alex is a breath of fresh air (compared to what?).  And people in the FO leaking to beat guys about how Alex is better than Kirk -- better leader, Doctson will bloom better with him because he's more willing to throw 50-50 balls.  On and on and on.

 

That may be the best characterization have seen yet. But ins't it how Bruce has operated since he got here? It's that politicians arrogant confidence. "I got this! Easy stuff! You are going to love it!" Only to be followed by all kinds of solutions. The fact that decided to rely on so many guys with injury issues is probably the most astounding to me. And the Dan comment was just pure ignorance. Kirk never did anything to embarrass this club that the club did not do to themselves. Why not just say we are glad to have Alex in the building and leave it at that. The breath of fresh air was childish. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not saying they are wrong.  Time will tell.  But its not off to the best start.  Wrong thus far about QB.  Wrong thus far about sitting on 10 million in cap space when they have a hole as big as Montana at LG.  Wrong a year ago when Bruce said they replaced almost the same level of production in losing D. Jax and Garcon with Quick and Pryor.  

 

How much has Jay played into all of this?  I don't know.  If Chris Russell is correct Jay was frustrated by their FA approach this year.  And according to one insider on the board, Jay wanted a different player than who was picked in the first (though Payne looks good). My point I don't get the sense that Jay is always on the same page as the FO. 

 

I get he doesn't make the final call. But if at yr 5 he does not get enough respect to be heard, especially on 1st rd picks, then he needs to go. It doesn't matter if it's his fault or not. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for Jay himself.  He needs to work out the kinks of the inconsistentcy -- the team can bounce back from a loss but can't deal with the high of a win and lose their edge.  I put that more on the leaders in the locker room than Jay.  Can you imagine for example a team with guys like London Fletcher in the locker room would allow that?  John Keim in a facebook post said he heard from someone who knows the Redskins roster/culture well before the Saints game that he thought the team would lose -- combination of the high of the GB win and coming off of the bye so they wouldn't play with an edge.  I am tired of that specifically.   Is that all on Jay?  I don't think so.  But it needs to be fixed this season and if not I get it if he's let go.   but if Bruce's isn't gone too it would be a travesty IMO.

 

The consistency is mostly on Jay. Yes the locker room leaders own some of it. But it starts at the top. Can you imagine Montae Nicholson making the mistake he made on a Bill B team? He would be unemployed right now, or at least not a Patriot. 

 

And yes, if they fire Jay but keep Bruce, that is probably the worst possible outcome. It means we have another 5 yrs of this crap, if not a slide backwards. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Having said that, I bet people will be happier on this thread on Monday -- because I think they win.  And the feel good vibes return.  But lets win two in a row.   It's a weird mindset that this team can't get over itself after a win.  Wacky to me.  But I've commented on it before in previous seasons.  I've said before Stephen Smith is a buffoon but he doesn't look that foolish with his yearly segment about how no team in the NFL has a harder time dealing with prosperity like the Redskins. 

 

 

I am glad you have confidence. But Cam has our number. i think it's another loss. Possibly another lopsided loss. But even if the team wins. So what. they will then give it right back to dallast. I have to admit I am as down on this team as I have been for a while. The embarrassment of NO was just inexcusable. I get they have more horses and were probably winning no matter what. But there was almost no fight in the team. They all just coughed up a big ass fur ball. Disgusting. 

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

  Wrong thus far about sitting on 10 million in cap space when they have a hole as big as Montana at LG.  Wrong a year ago when Bruce said they replaced almost the same level of production in losing D. Jax and Garcon with Quick and Pryor.  

 

 

This is the one that kills me. For years, literally years, the least knowledgable fan of the team cried out... if you're going to play a 3-4 get a nose guard and for years, the team made due with undersized ends who lacked the strength, agility, or speed to succeed there. Honestly, I think it's taken them ten years to address this problem.

 

Fast forward, LG has been a problem not just this year, but arguably for at least three. Everyone and their mother said, "We got to fix it. We're so close to a great line, but we have this crazy hole and we have no depth!" So, what does our front office do? They go out of their way to not address it... not address it with bandaids, journeymen, or draft picks. They didn't even bring in a fourteen year vet who wanted one last paycheck and hurrah. What they did do was rely on Arie, who'd never proven himself to be good, and Lovaou... the very guy who'd been the sub average, oft injured weakness the team was looking to improve on.

 

Somehow, they consciously conspired to make one of our best strengths into a weakness!

[JoggingGod]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Excuses to try and negate we went from perennial cellar dwellers to at least middle of the road. It's the best 3 yr period we have had since Gibbs and even before Gibbs 2. You can pile on and make excuses why he had nothing to do with it but then you also need to stop blaming him for everything now Can't have it both ways. 

We’re still cellar dwellers lol

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Excuses to try and negate we went from perennial cellar dwellers to at least middle of the road. It's the best 3 yr period we have had since Gibbs and even before Gibbs 2. You can pile on and make excuses why he had nothing to do with it but then you also need to stop blaming him for everything now Can't have it both ways. 

 

I think two things can be correct...

 

1) Gruden deserves credit for getting us to be consistently mediocre (I don't mean that as a slight)

2) Gruden deserves blame for not being able to get us to be better than mediocre

 

He may very well have hit his ceiling here in Washington. We saw it with Norv Turner too. He had us trending up but couldn't get us over the hump. Maybe that's Gruden as well. 

 

Let's just be careful what we wish for. After Turner's relatively stable 4+ years to end his career here (9-7, 8-7-1, 6-10, 10-6, 7-6) we were a roller coaster of up and down until now...It's possible we'd replace Gruden with someone who can take us to the next level. It's just as possible we'd replace him with someone worse. 

12 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

We’re still cellar dwellers lol

 

Except that we haven't been since Gruden's first year. Sadly, three consecutive non-last place seasons is the longest streak this franchise has had since they realigned divisions in 2002. 

 

*No, I don't want to hang a banner, I'm simply pointing out an actual fact vs. perception that gets thrown around

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think two things can be correct...

 

1) Gruden deserves credit for getting us to be consistently mediocre (I don't mean that as a slight)

2) Gruden deserves blame for not being able to get us to be better than mediocre

 

He may very well have hit his ceiling here in Washington. We saw it with Norv Turner too. He had us trending up but couldn't get us over the hump. Maybe that's Gruden as well. 

 

Let's just be careful what we wish for. After Turner's relatively stable 4+ years to end his career here (9-7, 8-7-1, 6-10, 10-6, 7-6) we were a roller coaster of up and down until now...It's possible we'd replace Gruden with someone who can take us to the next level. It's just as possible we'd replace him with someone worse. 

 

That's exactly what I was saying. Maybe I was not clear enough. i do not see Jay at this point being the guy to lead this team to a SB. But I do acknowledge he brought the team out of the furthest depths. Ideally the next person would build on what has already been done. 

 

But as @Skinsinparadise said - it's all a waste if Bruce is not also let go - or at least relegated to stadium discussions only. Just get him out of the football side of things. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

That's exactly what I was saying. Maybe I was not clear enough. i do not see Jay at this point being the guy to lead this team to a SB. But I do acknowledge he brought the team out of the furthest depths. Ideally the next person would build on what has already been done. 

 

But as @Skinsinparadise said - it's all a waste if Bruce is not also let go - or at least relegated to stadium discussions only. Just get him out of the football side of things. 

 

I wasn't clear enough...I was building off your point and agreeing 100%.

[goskins10]

8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I wasn't clear enough...I was building off your point and agreeing 100%.

So we are violently agreeing with each other....  LOL  

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

So we are violently agreeing with each other....  LOL  

 

 

 

Correct...aggressive negotiations (on the same side). 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

This is the one that kills me. For years, literally years, the least knowledgable fan of the team cried out... if you're going to play a 3-4 get a nose guard and for years, the team made due with undersized ends who lacked the strength, agility, or speed to succeed there. Honestly, I think it's taken them ten years to address this problem.

 

Fast forward, LG has been a problem not just this year, but arguably for at least three. Everyone and their mother said, "We got to fix it. We're so close to a great line, but we have this crazy hole and we have no depth!" So, what does our front office do? They go out of their way to not address it... not address it with bandaids, journeymen, or draft picks. They didn't even bring in a fourteen year vet who wanted one last paycheck and hurrah. What they did do was rely on Arie, who'd never proven himself to be good, and Lovaou... the very guy who'd been the sub average, oft injured weakness the team was looking to improve on.

 

Somehow, they consciously conspired to make one of our best strengths into a weakness!

 

You can even argued they downgrade considering Long > Lauvao.  If they don't want to pay Long lots of money, OK.  But i don't see anyone would think their move at LG would be to let Long go, double down on Lauvao and add no depth. 

[OVCChairman]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

So if he holds large responsibility, it's fair to be critical. I don't think anyone is laying 100% of the personnel on him. But he owns a large portion of it. 

 

Also - and this is the bigger point - let's say there is a problem with talent. He does 100% control how prepared the players he has are. And that has been really inconsistent over the years. Coming out playing great one game but then crap the next is not about talent. It's about getting players ready, making adjustments, and getting the most out of the players they have. He is not doing that. 

 

I like Jay. And I agree the circumstances are probably holding him back to a certain extent. But these last 4 games have been brutal. Great AZ game. A complete dud against the Colts. Great again against GB. Then complete crap against NO - maybe the wort game of his time here. Getting eat can be about talent. Coming out flat, uninspired, making foolish errors is about coaches getting guys ready. That is just not happening on a consistent basis. 

 

If the guys were playing theirs heats out but just got beat by a better team, OK. But they came out like it didn't matter. Especially after the tiniest bit of adversity. The team overall is mentally weak and it starts with the HC and his staff. 

 

 

 

 

With you 100000% 

 

We have shown that we have the coach to scheme and win football games

 

We have shown we have the personnel with enough talent to win games

 

We have shown the ability to execute well enough to win games.... 

 

We ARE good enough to win games... but too frequently...we just don't.  That falls on coaching imho.  It falls on leadership, and it falls on motivation.  NFL players don't get motivated in the lockeroom before the game starts... they get motivated in July / August when they're buying into it.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

16 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Dude, c'mon, they actually set up an interview with Wade and he turned us down because we didn't have enough talent on defense.  Is that Jay's fault, too?

This was the second time.  If I recall, he was interested in the position the first time around and we went with Barry. 

 

Also, I'm not suggesting that Wade was the only one who could have worked, it's just that Jay's track record shows that he can't distinguish DC talent.  He allowed Haz to stay, chose Barry, and then from a pool of options, ended up with a guy who was already here, and hasn't been all that earth shattering.

 

So, in my scenario, when I say that Jay is hired in 2017 by the Rams, I doubt he hires Wade, and he probably settles for a "meh" DC and coaching staff, and they bumble their way to 8-8 at best.  I don't think he has the attention to detail, leadership, intensity and drive to be more than an 8-8 coach.  At least he hasn't shown it yet.

 

And we know there is SOME talent on this team, because they win half their games.  And they no-show for a few others.  It's the consistency. It's lacking.

 

Jay made zero changes to his coaching staff form 2017 to 2018.  None.  Which says to me that he's got the staff he wants.  And yet we still have the same issues with assignments, adjustments and coaching which we've had for 5 years.

 

At some point, you are responsible for your record.  That point is now.  Jay isn't the worst coach in the league, but he's no better than 15-20, and in year 5, if it's clear you're not going to get appreciably better, it's time to move on.

[Voice_of_Reason]

48 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You can even argued they downgrade considering Long > Lauvao.  If they don't want to pay Long lots of money, OK.  But i don't see anyone would think their move at LG would be to let Long go, double down on Lauvao and add no depth. 

I mean, I knew that was the plan from about January 10th on.  Do I get a medal? 

 

Doesn't make it a smart plan. But it was damn obvious that was the plan.  As it was that Grant was the plan at WR.  Obvious from March, but just plain stupid.  As it was that Rob Kelley was the plan at RB.  Obvious, but stupid. 

 

Bruce has final roster authority, but you can't deny that some of Jay's guys end up as big parts of the team, and they often lack talent.  Some of them work out, he gets credit for a few guys. 

 

Btw, Gruden really likes Lauvao.  I think there was something in Kevin's podcast (or on something else I listen to, but I think it was Kevin's podcast) where he just couldn't understand why people were down on Lauvao, and eventually just said "Guys, Lauvao is good."  I can't remember the episode.  Kevin (assuming that's we I heard it) said that Gruden was actually somewhat shocked that there was public criticism of Lauvao. 

 

 

1 hour ago, JoggingGod said:

We’re still cellar dwellers lol

Well, at the moment we're in first place in the division, and I fully expect us to be there at the end of the weekend, because this is a "win 1" week, and probably the unexpected Jay Gruden win, like Seattle last year. 

 

We're good for one of those per year.  And this would be the perfect spot for it. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As for Jay himself.  He needs to work out the kinks of the inconsistentcy -- the team can bounce back from a loss but can't deal with the high of a win and lose their edge.  I put that more on the leaders in the locker room than Jay.  Can you imagine for example a team with guys like London Fletcher in the locker room would allow that?  John Keim in a facebook post said he heard from someone who knows the Redskins roster/culture well before the Saints game that he thought the team would lose -- combination of the high of the GB win and coming off of the bye so they wouldn't play with an edge.  I am tired of that specifically.   Is that all on Jay?  I don't think so.  But it needs to be fixed this season and if not I get it if he's let go.   but if Bruce's isn't gone too it would be a travesty IMO. 

Motivation = preparation in the NFL.  If a team appears as though they are unmotivated and lay and egg, that's on preparation.  When the Patriots got blown out against somebody a few years ago, Billy B said that preparation was bad, and that's on him, and he promised the team would not be unprepared again.  While some of that is coach speak, he's got a point.  A "win one for the gipper" ra-ra type of coach is pointless.  However, a coach who absolutely makes sure that his players know what the hell they are supposed to do at all times, which includes making sure his coaching staff is doing the same, is a "good motivator" in the NFL.

 

Gruden's lack of attention to detail, his lack of ability to hold coaches and players accountable leads to the fact that the team is often unprepared, and comes off looking like it has poor effort.  I don't actually really question the effort much, I think guys typically play hard for Jay.  But they'r not consistently well prepared, and that's on the leader.

 

It hasn't gotten better.  It might have gotten worse.  Jay just seems to lack the intensity and attention to detail to make sure everybody is held accountable, and fearful of what a blown assignment is going to cause.

 

Bill Walsh famously told one of his coaches one day that he was going to come out and rip him a new one (I think it was Shanahan, actually) in practice so that everybody could see nobody was above being criticized.  There was some window-dressing on that, and Bill Walsh isn't exactly known as a fire and brimstone type coach, but he got the attention of his players and coaches, and they were an extremely well coached team.  Gibbs did similar. (Gibbs I anyway.) You didn't make mistakes on his teams, and if you did, you didn't play. 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Having said that, I bet people will be happier on this thread on Monday -- because I think they win.  And the feel good vibes return.  But lets win two in a row.   It's a weird mindset that this team can't get over itself after a win.  Wacky to me.  But I've commented on it before in previous seasons.  I've said before Stephen Smith is a buffoon but he doesn't look that foolish with his yearly segment about how no team in the NFL has a harder time dealing with prosperity like the Redskins. 

I think they're going to win.  It's the "Win 1" week, and the "Jay pulls one out when people least expect it" week.  My position will not change.  If they put together 2 winning streaks of 3 games each the rest of the year, come talk to me.  Jay's teams haven't done that in 4+ years, so I doubt it will happen.  And a 3 game winning streak isn't just a ridiculously unachievable mark. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, I knew that was the plan from about January 10th on.  Do I get a medal? 

 

Doesn't make it a smart plan. But it was damn obvious that was the plan.  As it was that Grant was the plan at WR.  Obvious from March, but just plain stupid.  As it was that Rob Kelley was the plan at RB.  Obvious, but stupid. 

 

Bruce has final roster authority, but you can't deny that some of Jay's guys end up as big parts of the team, and they often lack talent.  Some of them work out, he gets credit for a few guys. 

 

Btw, Gruden really likes Lauvao.  I think there was something in Kevin's podcast (or on something else I listen to, but I think it was Kevin's podcast) where he just couldn't understand why people were down on Lauvao, and eventually just said "Guys, Lauvao is good."  I can't remember the episode.  Kevin (assuming that's we I heard it) said that Gruden was actually somewhat shocked that there was public criticism of Lauvao. 

 

 

Yeah I heard Jay likes Lauvao but clearly he wasn't plan A considering how late in the game he was signed in the off season.   Some of the beat guys said they intended to draft a guard but the draft didn't play out that way.  That's one of the many problems of the misguided approach of relying on the draft to fulfill needs.

 

But yeah Chris Russell flat out said Jay was upset with Bruce about this FA season.  And like i've said many times, Russell for his faults has been on the money for 2 years or so as to behind the scenes happenings with the FO.  

 

I have my issues with Jay.  Clearly, I like him better than you.  But one of my issues with Jay isn't personnel.  As to personnel especially the draft -- according to some observers (including national ones) Jay is very talented and more so than the average HC.   As for coaches having their teacher pet stuff.  It's typical.  I don't have a beef with him liking Ryan Grant.  Gibbs worshipped Thrash.  They are are similar players coincidently -- try hard, know all WR positions, block hard types. 

 

[goskins10]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah I heard Jay likes Lauvao but clearly he wasn't plan A considering how late in the game he was signed in the off season.   Some of the beat guys said they intended to draft a guard but the draft didn't play out that way.  That's one of the many problems of the misguided approach of relying on the draft to fulfill needs.

 

But yeah Chris Russell flat out said Jay was upset with Bruce about this FA season.  And like i've said many times, Russell for his faults has been on the money for 2 years or so as to behind the scenes happenings with the FO.  

 

I have my issues with Jay.  Clearly, I like him better than you.  But one of my issues with Jay isn't personnel.  As to personnel especially the draft -- according to some observers (including national ones) Jay is very talented and more so than the average HC.   As for coaches having their teacher pet stuff.  It's typical.  I don't have a beef with him liking Ryan Grant.  Gibbs worshipped Thrash.  They are are similar players coincidently -- try hard, know all WR positions, block hard types. 

 

 

 

Building off what you said as I know I am speaking to the choir:

 

This is why you pay the few $M extra and sign Hankins. Then you don't need to draft Payne. Settle later in the draft is perfect. Then you have your full range of options.  But since they didn't pull the trigger on Hankins, they felt the need to draft Payne. Maybe they still take him. But they could have been more comfortable trading down and getting more draft picks. I have to believe with James, Edmunds and a few others left on the board, they could have gotten something and still gotten a quality player - certainly equal to Payne as I still think they could have dropped back and still had him late 1st maybe even early 2nd. But when Vea went they panicked as it's clear they really wanted to address the DLine. To your's and a few others point - what good is $10M Cap space when you have glaring holes that could be filled. 

 

In the end though - if Jay has that little control over personnel, then he lacks the respect he should have earned by now - or Bruce's ego is too big, which is my bet - but either way he does not have the respect needed to be HC. 

 

45 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, I knew that was the plan from about January 10th on.  Do I get a medal? 

 

Doesn't make it a smart plan. But it was damn obvious that was the plan.  As it was that Grant was the plan at WR.  Obvious from March, but just plain stupid.  As it was that Rob Kelley was the plan at RB.  Obvious, but stupid. 

 

Edit

 

 

 

I think everyone knew they would bring him back unless he somehow got signed. I just think most of us - me for sure - never thought they would make him the starter. Had they brought him back for depth with someone else as the starter, I would have been Ok with that. He knows the system. They do like him. But not as the starter. I agree bad plan from the start. 

[thebeermonkey]

Reading this: 

 

On if he sensed a game like that was coming from their week of practice:

"No, not at all, we had a good week of practice really. Coming off a big win and a bye week, guys should have been fresh, but we just got hit in the mouth early and could never recover. We had a chance to get back in the game, we threw the pick six or whatever it was, a couple opportunities to make some plays, but it didn’t work out. We couldn’t stop them."

 

Makes me want to petition to get it under the definition of "pathetic" in the dictionary.

[Wildbunny]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

In the end though - if Jay has that little control over personnel, then he lacks the respect he should have earned by now - or Bruce's ego is too big, which is my bet - but either way he does not have the respect needed to be HC. 

I believe most HC don't have much control over personnel in the NFL. They're given guys and have to do with.

 

Now, if we are to discuss the FA approach, then it's obivous our FO got it wrong when going for the LG position. For months we only had Kouandjio who we cut from the 53 the year prior. And they thought that was good??? As VoR said, plan from FO (Bruce) was to play the waiting game with Lauvao and sign him cheap. Kinda like he did with Kirk the years before...

 

Now, I'm beginning to question if Jay really wants to stay around or if he's not KirkCousinsing the Redskins too...