Where Is The Big Boy Football We Were Promised?

[BleedBNG]

I totally agree with establishing both sides of the lines. I think everyone (including the FO) does. But "We didn't..." doesn't mean we won't. This can also include with FA. The run game, and the defensive backfield (mainly safeties and LB's) will have to work a bit harder to accomplish where they need to be at. But imagine how much better that'll be when we DO get the upfront help we're looking for. I knew even after the draft it would take us 2 or 3 years because I know what our FO is trying to do... at least for now, and it is for sure NOT in the non-directional way it has been doing things the last 20 years prior to 2015.

[Veryoldschool]

51 minutes ago, BleedBNG said:

I totally agree with establishing both sides of the lines. I think everyone (including the FO) does. But "We didn't..." doesn't mean we won't. This can also include with FA. The run game, and the defensive backfield (mainly safeties and LB's) will have to work a bit harder to accomplish where they need to be at. But imagine how much better that'll be when we DO get the upfront help we're looking for. I knew even after the draft it would take us 2 or 3 years because I know what our FO is trying to do... at least for now, and it is for sure NOT in the non-directional way it has been doing things the last 20 years prior to 2015.

 When he had the chance to improve the OL and DL in the 2016 draft and FA signings SM opted to focus on the defensive backfield and throw away the first round selection on a WR.  Then the Skins get bullied at the LOS in each of the first three games and I question SM's commitment to big boy ball.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

23 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 When he had the chance to improve the OL and DL in the 2016 draft and FA signings SM opted to focus on the defensive backfield and throw away the first round selection on a WR. 

In the other thread you said people don't understand football, but yet here you are suggesting that we 'threw away' our 1st rd pick this year.  Interesting.  

[BleedBNG]

57 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 When he had the chance to improve the OL and DL in the 2016 draft and FA signings SM opted to focus on the defensive backfield and throw away the first round selection on a WR.  Then the Skins get bullied at the LOS in each of the first three games and I question SM's commitment to big boy ball.

To be honest, I don't think he has much choice next year... but don't be surprised if the first pick is a RB.

[Veryoldschool]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

In the other thread you said people don't understand football, but yet here you are suggesting that we 'threw away' our 1st rd pick this year.  Interesting.  

Was picking Doctson necessary?  Did getting him resolve a current shortcoming or problem in the lineup?  Every serious person would have to answer no, for at least 2016 Doctson is a luxury pick adding to an already talent rich receiver corps when the OL and DL are clearly undermanned as evidenced by the bullying by Pittsburgh, Dallas and New York in succession.  

I believe as SM has stated publicly many times that football games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage.  It is difficult to lose the line of scrimmage as Washington did against New York and win the football game.  Multiple turnovers and a 300 yard, 2 TD and 106 quarterback rating by Cousins was needed to barely overcome the decisive advantage NY enjoyed at the LoS.  Cousins without the benefit of a running game led the Skins to scores on 7 drives.  Five of the drives ended in field goals because it is difficult for a pass only offense to score touch downs.

Yes, I understand football and I know if your quarterback leads 7 scoring drives your team should be winning big not eeking out a narrow victory.  The Skins are #3 in passing, 28th in rushing, 25th in rush defense and 26th in passing defense in 2016.  Go to NFL.com and checkout the stats for yourself.

The year is still young so the team may improve but thus far the 2016 Skins are just like the 2015 Skins in that they pass and catch well, punt and kick well but they suck at running the football, stopping the run and stopping the run.  SM should have used his high picks to improve the lines in 2016 not further enrich a talented receiving corps or try to build a defense from the back forward, he should have sought to take control of the LoS like he said he was going to do when he was hired.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

9 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Was picking Doctson necessary?  Did getting him resolve a current shortcoming or problem in the lineup?  Every serious person would have to answer no

I thought that picking Doctson was necessary.  Does that mean I'm not a serious person?  

[Veryoldschool]

Just now, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I thought that picking Doctson was necessary.  Does that mean I'm not a serious person?  

 By my lights yes.

[skinny21]

This whole thing does feel like a broken record, lol.  

Draft: My understanding is that SM drafts (his) BPA for the first 4 rounds, then moves to a more 'need' based approach.  Drafting Ioannidas in the 5th should tell us something then.  I think he understood the need to add a Dlineman (or 2), it just didn't work out earlier in the draft.  

Last year, much of our struggles against the run came from linebackers and safeties missing tackles - SM picked up a linebacker with one of those 'need' picks this year and had already addressed the issue with Cravens, and Spaight the year before.  We talk about our issues at center, but it doesn't hurt to remember we used another of those later picks on a Reiter last year.  Kouandijo hasn't earned PT (and may well not pan out), but he was one of three big boys drafted last year (not counting Preston Smith).

So again, I think he's seeing the needs, it just so happens he's a solid BPA guy.

As far as the FA pickups, I think he scored with RJF last year, but missed on Paea.  I don't really fault him too much on that one - Paea looked like he'd be a solid addition.  Hood signed a good sized contract last year in Jacksonville and injury seemed to derail him - I think he's working out pretty well.  Reyes is up in the air, but he wasn't exactly a trash heap pickup.  Yes, they're older guys, but they both have solid starting experience.  

I'll add that I think 3 things are really driving this:  not drafting a Dlineman (or two) earlier in a "rich" draft, his use of BPA, and not drafting Billings.  The first two tie together and are touchy with Redskins and their draft history.  The last one, well, I don't think it's healthy to dwell on individual players in that regard.  What should be the fourth major issue isn't considered enough  (IMO, and I mentioned it earlier) - the poor play of the guys playing behind the line - linebackers and safeties.  

We can trash the safeties he's brought in (Goodson/Johnson/Bruton), but it also shows his belief that things need to be fixed back there.  We can complain about Compton and Foster all day, but we should recognize that we've moved on from Riley and Robinson and added guys like Cravens/Spaight/Daniels/Garvin (and Foster).  Again, just the vast amount of movement at the safety and ILB positions shows how big of a need/weakness he considers those spots.

 

Long story short - I think he sees what needs to be done and is doing what he can.  I am concerned however, about his lack of success in drafting dlinemen... here's hoping Ioannidas (and future picks) bucks the trend.  For the record (ooh, style points for using 'record' in my first and last sentences!), I didn't write this novella to argue against any SM criticism, but rather in response to the idea that he doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

47 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 By my lights yes.

Judging whether or not Doctson is a good pick at this point is just as premature as the teeth gnashing over Kirk's impending contract.    

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, skinny21 said:

This whole thing does feel like a broken record, lol.  

Draft: My understanding is that SM drafts (his) BPA for the first 4 rounds, then moves to a more 'need' based approach.  Drafting Ioannidas in the 5th should tell us something then.  I think he understood the need to add a Dlineman (or 2), it just didn't work out earlier in the draft.  

Last year, much of our struggles against the run came from linebackers and safeties missing tackles - SM picked up a linebacker with one of those 'need' picks this year and had already addressed the issue with Cravens, and Spaight the year before.  We talk about our issues at center, but it doesn't hurt to remember we used another of those later picks on a Reiter last year.  Kouandijo hasn't earned PT (and may well not pan out), but he was one of three big boys drafted last year (not counting Preston Smith).

 

 

Playing off of this:  Chris Cooley and Shanny who know a thing or two about football flat out say the secondary (safeties) is the team's main problem not the D line.  Cooley in particular thinks our O line is actually good and Scherff is coming into his own.  For a team that drops back as much as the Redskins, Kirk doesn't get sacked much.  So at the very least its debatable that the O line is a weaknesses. 

That leaves the D line where Scot has in his two years signed 4 FAs for the position and drafted a guy, too.  He drafted 3 O lineman in his first draft.  It's not exactly him neglecting the trenches.  Has he struck gold on the D line?  Not yet.  Ziggy Hood looks decent. Will see soon about Matt Ioannidis but yes clearly more work needs to be done.   Overall, he's done a good job IMO.  He inherited a team that struggled and was weak almost everywhere.    I am not going out on a limb by saying most reputable GMs build their teams through the draft and ESPECIALLY when you are rebuilding and have multiple weaknesses you go BPA in the draft.

For those who say Doctson is a bad pick and they should have taken a DL -- to me its a meaningless statement unless they tell me which DL they would have taken.  Is it  Kenny Clark?  Is it J. Reed?  Who was the guy you love that is shining that could have been ours?  That's how the draft works.  It's not position versus position but player versus player. 

With Su'a Cravens essentially saving the season and Crowder killing it on Sunday.   Last thing on my mind today is how has Scot disappointed.    The only legit critique for Scot IMO on the D line is Scherff instead of L. Williams.   Then it is at least an apples to apples comparison.  But my problem with that one is -- if we are going to couch our critique about Scot on that pick from the stand point of the trenches then its a bit of a gratuitous shot -- considering Scot went for the trenches with Scherff and he's a good player.  Usually the crying about skipping a player is about ending up with a mediocre guy or bust. Not the case here.  Not to mention, in the next round Scot got a D lineman and arguably the best pass rusher so far from the draft -- where if you see the redrafts done from that draft with hindsight, draft geeks put P. Smith as a top 15, sometimes top 10 pick. 

If we are going to kill a GM for basically this... well, in one of the rounds there was a better guy picked after your pick...then any GM could be slammed at the drop of a hat:  John Schneider people say you are the best GM in the league but you are the dummy who took Paul Richardson over Allen Robinson -- how could that be?  Well join the club it happens in every round.  We will never find a GM who will nail every round to the degree that there won't be a better player picked after ours sometimes.  That GM doesn't exist, its impossible to do, its never been done.  

 

[pjfootballer]

It's the whole BPA vs need drafting argument all over again.

[Probos]

I was just thinking about this watching the game on Sunday.  I remember that speech that Scot made about toughness, hitting, etc,...and, while I think they're not necessarily "finesse" I don't view them as this ultra hard nosed, tough team.  

I think it truly takes 3-4 drafts/FA periods to assemble the type of team you envision.  So,...I'll give him the benefit of the doubt -- also, the coaches have more of an influence of the mindset of the players and how they approach the game.  

[skins island connection]

Hey, on the bright side, it appears our ST play has greatly improved !!

Until Scot begins acting like Vinny, i'll just sit back and see what happens. I'm patient; I have to be or I will become a patient.

[daveakl]

Question:

If one says SM has abandoned "big boy football", wouldn't one need to show ways he could have accomplished it with examples?

[pjfootballer]

5 minutes ago, daveakl said:

Question:

If one says SM has abandoned "big boy football", wouldn't one need to show ways he could have accomplished it with examples?

That's not the ES way.  Apparently all you have to do is "DEMAND CHANGE" without giving examples of who you would draft/acquire/sign etc. to replace said player(s).  After all, it's been said by many that "I'm not a talent evaluator."  They don't know how, but they just want it dammit.

[skinny21]

I mentioned multiple things that I think are driving this (reoccurring) conversation, but I seem to have left off the most obvious one... winning.  I know I let my expectations get the better of me and it led to painful disappointment after the first 2 weeks.  Here's hoping the players and coaches clean some things up and this past Sunday marks a turnaround similar to last year. 

[daveakl]

4 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

That's not the ES way.  Apparently all you have to do is "DEMAND CHANGE" without giving examples of who you would draft/acquire/sign etc. to replace said player(s).  After all, it's been said by many that "I'm not a talent evaluator."  They don't know how, but they just want it dammit.

Was on my phone earlier and couldn't expand on it much.  Let's look at the O-Line

Lichtensteiger, Kory 8

Kouandjio, Arie 2

Lauvao, Shawn 7

Long, Spencer 3

Scherff, Brandon 2

Moses, Morgan 3

Nsekhe, Ty 2

Williams, Trent 7

8 O-Linemen. 3 brought in by SM and 2 more possibly brought in off his draft rankings (rumor was we used him for the draft before hiring him full time)

Now, say you are unhappy with what he has done so far.  Who are you cutting and who are you signing in FA / Drafting?  Let's hear the actual players you would rather him have acquired instead of  just BS about how he has abandoned his principles.

Would you rather him have drafted a C and LG in the first 3 rounds? Do you then say we cut KL and SL meaning every player on the line is in their 1st or 2nd year starting except Trent?

Would you rather we have paid Alex Mack 5 years / 45 million? Let's hear the plan ranters and ravers. 

[illone]

It all depends who is available at the pick, and it's too early to judge any of Scot's drafts.  We may lose Garcon in the off-season and that Doctson pick will be looking mighty smart if he plays well next year and beyond...

[Veryoldschool]

A visit to the team stat page is informative.  If you look at the team stats on the link below it is very clear that the Skins are running what Buddy Ryan used to refer to a "chuck and duck offense".  Our opponents average 123 yards on the ground to our 75, that 48 yard differential tells the tale on who is controlling the line of scrimmage and the game.  Average yards per rushing attempt for the Skins is 3.8, which is higher than I frankly expected since Jones seems to get 2 or less half the time.  He had a productive stretch near the end of the Giants game but much too often his hips barely gross the line of scrimmage.  Our opponents average 4.6 or almost a yard more per attempt.

In 3 games the Skins have picked up a grand total of 12 rushing first downs, only 4 per game.  Our opponents have picked up 25 first downs on the ground, more than double.  It is very hard to win football games if your too weak to run and too weak to stop the run. Scot said he believes in big boy ball but it looks like an empty boast at this point.  Lots of talented, big, young linemen were on the board last year and he chose an WR and a safety instead.  If Scot had selected a couple of upgrades at center and guard instead a superfluous WR and a safety in the 2016 draft things could be looking a whole lot brighter.

We have 11 FGs to our opponents 5.  It is tough for 1 dimensional times to score in the redzone.  It took 5 FGs, 300 yards of passing, 2 touchdowns, a 106 QBR and no less than 7 scoring drives to barely eek out a 2 point victory over what I think is a mediocre team.  If you have 7 scoring drives you should be kicking somebody's ass not winning a nail biter.  Where is the big boy ball?

[London Kev]

I'm a new convert to the BPA way of thinking. It should mean that "eventually" you end up with a good team, full of good football players.
Even if your BPA is weighted somewhat towards need, it's still going to take a while.

I'm as frustrated as everyone else is with our apparent lack of hard-nosed physical football. I want to see us ram the ball up the middle for first downs, and have pulling guards wipe out LBs 5 yards down field. But right now that's not who we are, Our pass blocking is very good, run blocking not so good.

Taking a WR is not a problem if he's the BPA, Next draft the first two BPAs might be a center and a guard and all will be well, "eventually" .

[daveakl]

VOS....you keep saying the exact same thing but never give any examples of how to address it.

18 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Scot had selected a couple of upgrades at center and guard instead a superfluous WR and a safety in the 2016 draft things could be looking a whole lot brighter.

So who should he have drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds? Who would you have those two players replace on the roster. 

[Veryoldschool]

 

The link below is to the NFL Team Stats page.  We average half what New England does on the ground.  The facts are the facts, the Skins are a soft finesse team and SM didn't make them any tougher with his 2016 acquisitions:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/team?seasonId=2016&seasonType=REG&Submit=Go

[illone]

It's 3 games in, way too early to determine the identity of this team...

[Veryoldschool]

1 minute ago, illone said:

It's 3 games in, way too early to determine the identity of this team...

 

Do you expect them to try to run or better yet succeed at running the football against the Browns?

 

[illone]

1 minute ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Do you expect them to try to run or better yet succeed at running the football against the Browns?

 

 

I try not to expect too much from football Sunday anymore.  I watch or listen and enjoy the game for what it is: entertainment.