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Punters and Kickers bit of a rant


rick1796

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It seems the skins will be starting the season with Tress Way and Kai Forbath as kickers. Tress has a big leg but has been less than consistent and Forbath has consistency but not a big leg. Still Forbath is better than we have had in years, and if tress way doesn't pan out we will have other options . . . 

 

What this post is really about is how fans view kickers. Several times during our years of bad kickers i have heard fans say something very similar to "It is inexcusable that we can't find a punter who average 45 yard" or "there is no reason we shouldn't be able to find a kicker that can hit from 45 every time" and a plethora of similar statements. It baffles me a bit because place kicking and punting at that level are extremely specialised and difficult tasks.

Ask yourself, "Do i know anyone who can hit a 3pts jump shot?" of course. Ask yourself, "do i know anyone who can bench 400lbs?" maybe. if you go to most any gym and wait around you'll see one or two. Ask yourself "Do i know anyone who can or could run a sub 5sec 40 time" probably though most of those really fast high school kids you are thinking or right now weren't that fast.  Now ask yourself do i know anyone who can punt 45 yards in the air. . . at all" crickets "Do i know anyone who can make a 45 yard field goal. . . at all?" more crickets. Are you beginning to see why it is hard to find people who can do those things with unfailing regularity. 

 

The best part of this is when we do find a player who can manage one of these fairly amazing feets we consider that to be the norm and failing at it even once to be a sin against football.  No wonder it is hard to find a good kicker, who would want to put up with that crap?

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If the punter has a good leg... Why not have him do kick offs?

 

Totally different approach.

 

I really like Pat Macafee for this reason. 

 

There are punters in the NFL who do both, but they are tough to come by when they are good.  I think Macafee was franchised last year when he came free.

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Totally different approach.

 

I really like Pat Macafee for this reason. 

 

There are punters in the NFL who do both, but they are tough to come by when they are good.  I think Macafee was franchised last year when he came free.

I've always had a hard time buying this. That is your JOB... Kicking footballs. Clock in at 8 am every day and go until 5. Work on kicking the balls any way you can. You've proven you have talent and a proclivity for striking a football with your shoe, practice the placekick and the punt. I mean hell, MLS goalies can punt or placekick the length of the field

Imagine what kind of contract a guy would command if he could do both... Really, the question is how much would a team be willing to pay for an extra roster spot?

I'm not saying any of this is easy or discounting how difficult any of this is, I just can't believe at the very zenith of the kicking profession guys can only figure out how to kick it off the ground or out of their hands. Wtf

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Zoony think of it as trying to tell a pitcher you need him to throw a 95mph fastball both with a standard over the top delivery and with a submarine delivery. The muscles required not only do not overlap enough so that doing one means you can do the other, but trying to accomplish both can cause injury.

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Yeah, I'm happy with Kai and Way.  Kai's been really good for us, and by all accounts, even according to Gruden, his kickoffs and Hockers were about the same.  So, we didn't lose anything by keeping him, and, with the exception of the first 3-4 games last season, the guy's been on fire when kicking FGs.  His 49 yarder during the Tampa game was perfect.  Honestly, he's the first kicker we've had where I didn't hold my breath every time he was kicking a FG.  (It used to be like watching Shaq at the FT line)

 

As for Way, the guy has the strongest leg of any of the punters we've had this offseason (which is pretty good since, from reports, Malone had a really strong leg).  As for consistency, well, none of those guys were consistent.  So, if he's inconsistent, it's not like we lost anything by cutting those others.  

 

Kai came to us as a guy who'd never kicked in a game, now Way comes to us in the same way (except not during the season).  Hopefully we'll have a similar result.

 

I would love it if our ST guys were here for 20 years and we never thought about finding new ones.

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The kicking game is just stupid and needs to be done away with.

Just let the QB wing it down there on punts and kick offs, have the 2 point conversion be worth one and forget about the extra point kick that goes through 99.9% of the time anyway.

I honestly think that it's one of the most exciting parts. Late game field goals, and punt returns are some of the most dramatic parts of the game. Pre neutered kick returns were as well. That booming hang time is part of that.

Names like Devin Hester, Adam Vinateri, and Desmond Howard aren't names if you remove the kicking game. Same for Romo flubbing a hold in the playoffs :-)

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I honestly think that it's one of the most exciting parts. Late game field goals, and punt returns are some of the most dramatic parts of the game. Pre neutered kick returns were as well. That booming hang time is part of that.

Names like Devin Hester, Adam Vinateri, and Desmond Howard aren't names if you remove the kicking game. Same for romoSUCKS flubbing a hold in the playoffs :-)

I don't care. I think the kicking part of the game is useless and annoying. Let the QB throw the ball instead of kick offs, do away with punts and field goals and have the 2 pt conv be worth 1 point.

 

You'd still get your Hesters and Howards (although a SB fate being decided because of the kicking game is dumb). I don't care about you Vinateris.

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 Well, the kicker and/or punter has 1 job; kick the ball.

 Their uniforms are clean, they're not on the field all the time so they're not tired or winded, but it is an important aspect of the game; so, you have 1 job to do, and if you suck at it, we'll find someone else to do it.

 

 oh, almost forgot;

 

 LACES  OUT !!

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I've always had a hard time buying this. That is your JOB... Kicking footballs. Clock in at 8 am every day and go until 5. Work on kicking the balls any way you can. You've proven you have talent and a proclivity for striking a football with your shoe, practice the placekick and the punt. I mean hell, MLS goalies can punt or placekick the length of the field

Imagine what kind of contract a guy would command if he could do both... Really, the question is how much would a team be willing to pay for an extra roster spot?

I'm not saying any of this is easy or discounting how difficult any of this is, I just can't believe at the very zenith of the kicking profession guys can only figure out how to kick it off the ground or out of their hands. Wtf

 

You're forgetting that kickers are the biggest head cases on any football team and it's not even close :lol:

 

I agree with the overall "sack up and kick it" theme of your post, but when you start screwing with one of their routines then they are going to give a little in another area.  If one has the mentality of "I'll just go out and kick it" then yeah he'll probably do well... but few do and those few are the ones who get paid.

 

Soccer goalies also don't have guys chasing them and the ball is shaped differently, fwiw.  Football kicks need to be on precise sides of the ball.  Go look at a keeper who is being chased and watch what we would call a "no nonsense clearance" over in the soccer thread and see that probably half of them go out of bounds.  Football is a more precise game with timing.

 

But overall, this kicking problem we've had on the Redskins over the last couple of decades is borderline treasonous to the game.

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One, it's not MY job to find a reliable punter and kicker. I don't work for the a Redskins.

Two, why does it seem (yes, I know some other teams have problems also) like we are the only team out of the 32 that can't find either position?

I see the stat about teams with the most coaching changes and QBs, but I'd be interested in seeing his many punters and kickers each team has gone through since 2002.

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I honestly think that it's one of the most exciting parts. Late game field goals, and punt returns are some of the most dramatic parts of the game. Pre neutered kick returns were as well. That booming hang time is part of that.

Names like Devin Hester, Adam Vinateri, and Desmond Howard aren't names if you remove the kicking game. Same for romoSUCKS flubbing a hold in the playoffs :-)

 

Agreed. The kicking game also adds strategy elements that would be lost. What would we call the game if we didn't kick? Throwball? The game is called football and kicking is an important aspect that I would hate to see left out.

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The kicking game is just stupid and needs to be done away with.

 

...have the 2 point conversion be worth one and forget about the extra point kick that goes through 99.9% of the time anyway.

this is the idea i really liked when i read about it in the offseason:

 

TD's are automatic 7 pts.  If the team wants to go for 2, they can but if they miss, that 7 becomes a 6, otherwise 8

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this is the idea i really liked when i read about it in the offseason:

 

TD's are automatic 7 pts.  If the team wants to go for 2, they can but if they miss, that 7 becomes a 6, otherwise 8

That works for me, or just leave it 6 and the extra point is a normal play. Or it's two points. Or just make a TD 1 point and leave it alone.

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Yeah, I'm happy with Kai and Way.  Kai's been really good for us, and by all accounts, even according to Gruden, his kickoffs and Hockers were about the same.  So, we didn't lose anything by keeping him, and, with the exception of the first 3-4 games last season, the guy's been on fire when kicking FGs.  His 49 yarder during the Tampa game was perfect.  Honestly, he's the first kicker we've had where I didn't hold my breath every time he was kicking a FG.  (It used to be like watching Shaq at the FT line)

 

As for Way, the guy has the strongest leg of any of the punters we've had this offseason (which is pretty good since, from reports, Malone had a really strong leg).  As for consistency, well, none of those guys were consistent.  So, if he's inconsistent, it's not like we lost anything by cutting those others.  

 

Kai came to us as a guy who'd never kicked in a game, now Way comes to us in the same way (except not during the season).  Hopefully we'll have a similar result.

 

I would love it if our ST guys were here for 20 years and we never thought about finding new ones.

Great post jflow.

 

The Kicking Game is vital.  How many times have you seen a team get pinned inside their own 20 via a punt, fail to get outta the shadow of their own Endzone, shank a Punt, and end of giving up the go-ahead score because of it?  That's a classic Field Position maneuver.  It matters.

 

Ok.  Viewing it another way, have you ever noticed how many top contenders have a greater measure of stability than the League average with their Specialists?  Soundness in the Kicking Game definitely ain't sexy, but it's vital.

 

If we can get production out of this Punter & a decent Kickoff Team, then we've got a legit shot to control Field Position in most of our games this year.  IF that happens, The Skins will be right there in the mix. (barring a disastrous year regarding Turnovers)

 

I like the Kicking Game - separates the wheat from the chaff.  

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Agreed. The kicking game also adds strategy elements that would be lost. What would we call the game if we didn't kick? Throwball? The game is called football and kicking is an important aspect that I would hate to see left out.

That's why I'd like to keep it.  I don't care so much about kicking the extra point or not, but taking away kickoffs, punts, and FGs would nuder the game.  It would be like watching soccer.  

 

No thanks.  I'd rather have a game that includes some other options besides just going for it every 4th down.

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So if they **** up, is it my way or the Kai Way?

 

Sorry...no really, I am, don't throw things at me, I'll just leave.

 

For what it's worth, I've gone out to the local high school fields and done field goal competitions with my friends in the past.  None of us played football much (I may have been the only one who played at all in HS, and not with any skill)  but we all played soccer for a number of years.  The best I could do was 37 yards, I think I made 1 or 2 out of 10 from that distance.  A friend of mine hit from 39.  No one else came close from that distance.

 

So 37 and 39 yards, from a pair of guys who don't play the sport, don't practice it 40 hours a week, but do know proper kicking and ball striking techniques.  Sure, there was no pressure beyond being laughed at by our friends and trying not to pull a groin muscle, but again, not even 1/10,000 of the practice, nor the paycheck.  Bottom line, I'm with Zoony on this, if you can't hit below 45 fairly regularly, you shouldn't have a job.  I can understand missing from 50+, but now that 60+ yards attempts are becoming common, you need to be able to hit 45 and under almost without fail, or someone else will be there to go after your job.

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Zoony think of it as trying to tell a pitcher you need him to throw a 95mph fastball both with a standard over the top delivery and with a submarine delivery. The muscles required not only do not overlap enough so that doing one means you can do the other, but trying to accomplish both can cause injury.

 

They're two different things for sure. A kicker is aiming ahead, trying to reach an imaginary rectangle in a vertical plane, worried about L/R location and getting enough power. He is also more likely to have to perform in high-pressure situations. Kickers approach the ball from the side and the ball is on the ground. 

 

A punter is more worried about L/R location and up field distance. His target is a rectangle on the ground (horizontal plane), not in the air. They approach the ball head-on and the ball is in the air.

 

Also, punters have to take snaps, while kickers just have to kick a ball handled by the holder. That's often why a punter is also the holder.

 

There is some merit to the idea of finding a guy who is great at both, but most who do both aren't great at either. Let's put it another way - why did we need Mike Bragg when we had Mark Moseley?

So 37 and 39 yards, from a pair of guys who don't play the sport, don't practice it 40 hours a week, but do know proper kicking and ball striking techniques.  Sure, there was no pressure beyond being laughed at by our friends and trying not to pull a groin muscle, but again, not even 1/10,000 of the practice, nor the paycheck.  Bottom line, I'm with Zoony on this, if you can't hit below 45 fairly regularly, you shouldn't have a job.  I can understand missing from 50+, but now that 60+ yards attempts are becoming common, you need to be able to hit 45 and under almost without fail, or someone else will be there to go after your job.

 

Why weren't you in camp then? :P

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