Next Day Thread: What is Old is New Again (Buck an Ears)

[KDawg]

Watching that Tua hit last night… he dove. Which coaching circles and studies are showing is safer…

 

So, those studies are about to be blown up. But also, the idea is when you do that dive you throttle down and turtle. You tuck, turn your head and go down in a lump. Tua’s dive was extending the neck.

 

The problem with teaching it that way instead of the slide is that these players are moving fast as hell and one slight mistake could literally get you killed. Tua tried to get extra yards, knowing he needed a first, and extended. 

 

I have seen crazy hits on both a slide and a dive now. These QBs just don’t have a real safe way to get out of this. 
 

It’s almost better to take contact upright for these guys. 
 

Hope Tua is okay. And JD needs to get out of bounds or get down really early… turtle or slide. Don’t risk it.

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Watching that Tua hit last night… he dove. Which coaching circles and studies are showing is safer…

 

So, those studies are about to be blown up. But also, the idea is when you do that dive you throttle down and turtle. You tuck, turn your head and go down in a lump. Tua’s dive was extending the neck.

 

The problem with teaching it that way instead of the slide is that these players are moving fast as hell and one slight mistake could literally get you killed. Tua tried to get extra yards, knowing he needed a first, and extended. 

 

I have seen crazy hits on both a slide and a dive now. These QBs just don’t have a real safe way to get out of this. 
 

It’s almost better to take contact upright for these guys. 
 

Hope Tua is okay. And JD needs to get out of bounds or get down really early… turtle or slide. Don’t risk it.

 

I just never remember seeing Russell Wilson taking a big hit after a run.  And we saw him a ton when he was in Seattle and he ran a lot and always finished with a slide and poped right up. I am doubting a head first turtle roll or whatever it's called is safer than a simple slide.  

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I just never remember seeing Russell Wilson taking a big hit after a run.  And we saw him a ton when he was in Seattle and he ran a lot and always finished with a slide and poped right up. I am doubting a head first turtle roll or whatever it's called is safer than a simple slide.  

I think game situation matters, too. Fourth and 2 and you’re running for a first… stay in your feet and take the hit.

 

3rd and 18 and you scramble for 5 and go down (either way) and the defenders aren’t risking 15 most of the time for a play you’re not even close to making.

 

But still. 

[DWinzit]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Watching that Tua hit last night… he dove. Which coaching circles and studies are showing is safer…

 

So, those studies are about to be blown up. But also, the idea is when you do that dive you throttle down and turtle. You tuck, turn your head and go down in a lump. Tua’s dive was extending the neck.

 

The problem with teaching it that way instead of the slide is that these players are moving fast as hell and one slight mistake could literally get you killed. Tua tried to get extra yards, knowing he needed a first, and extended. 

 

I have seen crazy hits on both a slide and a dive now. These QBs just don’t have a real safe way to get out of this. 
 

It’s almost better to take contact upright for these guys. 
 

Hope Tua is okay. And JD needs to get out of bounds or get down really early… turtle or slide. Don’t risk it.

The slide just seems like the accepted or what everyone is more accustomed to, as a result making it the safer method. They need to get down early instead of trying to squeak out that last yard. Everyone will occasionally take a hit, I' just rather see him getting hit when sliding then head first

[FootballZombie]

The biggest diff for me is that if your late on a slide, u will get creamed but at least you can both see the hit coming and try to protect yourself further.

 

If u are late on a dive your going head first into whatever contact the defender chooses.

 

Hamlin presented as soft a target as possible absorbing the impact... But Tua takes all that force to the noggin

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

The biggest diff for me is that if your late on a slide, u will get creamed but at least you can both see the hit coming and try to protect yourself further.

 

If u are late on a dive your going head first into whatever contact the defender chooses.

 

Hamlin presented as soft a target as possible absorbing the impact... But Tua takes all that force to the noggin

Went looking for video but can’t find them

at the moment. I’ve seen some absolutely vicious hits to QBs on slides.

[FootballZombie]

Oh there out there 4 sho. If ur late getting down bad things happen regardless

 

Griff w the late slide vs ATL comes to mind

 

I'd rather not see my QB not take those hits head on tho. Especially if it's one of those acceleration dives that can make the collision even more magnificent than a decelerating slide

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Oh there out there 4 sho. If ur late getting down bad things happen regardless

 

Griff w the late slide vs ATL comes to mind

 

I'd rather not see my QB not take those hits head on tho. Especially if it's one of those acceleration dives that can make the collision even more magnificent than a decelerating slide

I think, either way, you have to give yourself up early. If you are trying to get extra yards, stay up in traffic. Otherwise, regardless, get down early.

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Went looking for video but can’t find them

at the moment. I’ve seen some absolutely vicious hits to QBs on slides.

Oh I'm sure they are out there as most all QBs slide so they will take more hits than the other method.  However I doubt you will find many if any on Russel Wilson. And plenty of those runs were for first downs.  Just saying the slide can be safer when done correctly.  Having a hard time understanding how going head first into a defenser is a safer method than a feet first slide.  

Edited September 13 by Darrell Green Fan

[RVAskins]

I think Tua would be wise to start using a Guardian Cap. 

[woodpecker]

If that was supposed to be a dive, it certainly was an awkward one. Looked to me like he just put his head down and crashed into the defender ala Gus Frerrotte ramming the wall.

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Oh I'm sure they are out there as most all QBs slide so they will take more hits than the other method.  However I doubt you will find many if any on Russel Wilson. And plenty of those runs were for first downs.  Just saying the slide can be safer when done correctly.  Having a hard time understanding how going head first into a defenser is a safer method than a feet first slide.  

Because you don’t go head first into a defender in the turtle method. You fall and tuck your head away from the defender.

 

Tua did it wrong in either case.

[dyst]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Watching that Tua hit last night… he dove. Which coaching circles and studies are showing is safer…

 

So, those studies are about to be blown up. But also, the idea is when you do that dive you throttle down and turtle. You tuck, turn your head and go down in a lump. Tua’s dive was extending the neck.

 

The problem with teaching it that way instead of the slide is that these players are moving fast as hell and one slight mistake could literally get you killed. Tua tried to get extra yards, knowing he needed a first, and extended. 

 

I have seen crazy hits on both a slide and a dive now. These QBs just don’t have a real safe way to get out of this. 
 

It’s almost better to take contact upright for these guys. 
 

Hope Tua is okay. And JD needs to get out of bounds or get down really early… turtle or slide. Don’t risk it.

I won’t argue for or against either sliding method; but I think the key is to slide early. Tua slid too late. Upright will get their knees hurt the way players now try to target the lower body since rules are geared towards avoiding the upper body.

Edited September 13 by dyst

[Chris 44]

It seems that quarterbacks are also kind of pushing it as far as they can get away with it. The intent of the slide is to "give up" on the play without taking a hit. Some of these "slides" it appears the quarterback is trying to take advantage of it and gain an extra yard knowing that defenders are reluctant to make contact for fear of a penalty. Like anything else in life, "give an inch take a yard". They just have to realize that extra yard may come with a price.

Edited September 13 by Chris 44

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

It seems that quarterbacks are also kind of pushing it as far as they can get away with it. The intent of the slide is to "give up" on the play without taking a hit. Some of these "slides" it appears the quarterback is trying to take advantage of it and gain an extra yard knowing that defenders are reluctant to make contact for fear of a penalty. Like anything else in life, "give an inch take a yard". They just have to realize that extra yard may come with a price.

Yup. If it’s 4th and 4 and you’re running for the first down and contact is coming near the marker… your best bet is staying up, continuing to run hard and creating contact.

 

Diving or sliding in a situation like that when contact is coming is a recipe for this. 
 

Even a late slide there he may wind up with a knee to his head. 
 

Either get down early or keep momentum into contact.

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Because you don’t go head first into a defender in the turtle method. You fall and tuck your head away from the defender.

 

Tua did it wrong in either case.

 

Yeah the more I see it the more I agree with you. He drove into the defender like a running back. As for the situaton it was dire and he was looking to convert a first down. But he had the first down, he could have ducked and covered or slid and still gotten the 1st.

 

But I still believe the turtle method where you lead with your head is more dangerouis.  And again the reason you have seen so many injuries with the traditional slide is because it's used far more often, more plays means more chance for injury.  

 

 

Edited September 13 by Darrell Green Fan

[Conn]

2 hours ago, RVAskins said:

I think Tua would be wise to start using a Guardian Cap. 

There is literally no evidence that Guardian Caps do anything, actually. It’s like performative safety cosplaying for the league to allow them. 

Edited September 13 by Conn

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2 hours ago, Conn said:

There is literally no evidence that Guardian Caps do anything, actually. It’s like performative safety cosplaying for the league to allow them. 

 

Wasn't it supposed to matter more for guys in the trenches? Do you have a link to something I can read on it's supposed efficacy or lack there of?

[Conn]

48 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Wasn't it supposed to matter more for guys in the trenches? Do you have a link to something I can read on it's supposed efficacy or lack there of?

The NFL says they work, with no scientific backing that I can tell and even have a “20% less impact experienced when both players wear the guardian cap” stat from who knows where that they tout. 

 

An independent study from 2023 in the International Journal of Research and Public Health showed no difference in impact force experienced by those wearing or not wearing the guardian cap. I don’t have the link but I read an article about it earlier this year and just brushed up on what I remembered reading on google. 
 

Most importantly, I read that even if they could be proven to work to blunt the impact of an initial hit, they definitely do not protect from the sort of brain damage that causes CTE over time, which is what “new” helmet technology is supposed to be tackling. It’s not just concussions, it’s the micro-impacts every play over time that can cause CTE later in life. 

Again this is just what I refreshed myself on with a quick google, but I read an article (not sure if it was The Athletic or some random PFT aggregator) a while back that went more into the studies. 

 

Basically it’s disputed whether they do anything at all, but the NFL is the group who seems to not have independent scientific research backing their hopeful claims, so it seems more like a PR stunt than an effort to actually protect players 

Edited September 13 by Conn

[El Mexican]

On 9/12/2024 at 5:22 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

Meaningless. 

 

It's not like our players aren't pros. They know TB is hella hot this time of the year.

 

If what you say is valid then our entire organization has some serious intelligence deficit from the owner to the conditioning trainer.

 

It just seemed the Bucs came out to play reagardless of the weather. We hardly did, excuses aside.

 

On 9/12/2024 at 2:12 AM, SkinsGuy said:

 

Of course they did. They live, practice, and play football in it constantly. 

 

The excessive heat and humidity of that day wasn't the reason Washington lost, but I'm sure it didn't help.

 

Same came be said about December-January games. Everything just looked sloppy.

On 9/11/2024 at 10:11 PM, shemp nixon said:

They practice in it every day.

 

So it's a practice failure? C'monnn.

[El Mexican]

On 9/12/2024 at 8:52 AM, The Consigliere said:

Two things though:

#1 its exceptionally rare for teams to make trades that stupid.

#2 when teams make trades that stupid, its largely always about QB's. 

 

We have nothing to trade that's going to give us a transformative catalyst effect. This isn't the Wizards 4 years ago, 3 years ago, if they'd listened to me and a handful of others, understood that the Wall achilles injury destroyed any chance of the Beal version team ever becoming a contender, and traded him for a giant stack of assets circa 2019-2021. If the Wiz had done that, they would have had a genuine chance to construct an OKC/Houston styled quick mega rebuild, but the Wiz as always were run by total morons and didn't do it, and so the rebuild that could have been done in '23-'25, will instead not be done until '26-'28 and that's only if we land a lot of luck in the draft. The Redskins/Commanders had a chance to do a miniature version of this with Cousins but preferred revenge, and retribution, and so here we are 7 or 8 years later, and the best assets we can move of value are some Edge and DT talent on the last years of their deals and McLaurin whose already past his prime. Nobody is paying top dollar draft capital for any of those assets (I remain surprised we pulled a top 40 pick for half a season of Montez Sweat, that surprised me). 

 

So we're stuck. We can try flipping the last things under the cushion of value: Payne, Allen, McLaurin, maybe Robinson, but we're not getting a first FOR ANY OF THEM. That's what sucks. Would I still make trades? I'd trade one of the DT's for sure, but other than that, and maybe Robinson, there's nothing we can really afford to trade that's worth the net loss to providing a floor of talent to evaluate the surrounding draft picks and undrafted free agents. You need some floor set up so we can figure out what Daniels is. If we trade our most valuable offensive player, say Cosmi, and our best WR, McLaurin, what do we learn about Daniels? How effectively he can run for his life after his pocket collapses and nobodies open? It's not terribly helpful, in any fashion. 

 

We just don't know. Only the market can asses these guy's value (BRob is good here, but I highly doubt any team would offer more than a 7th for him, for example). 

 

So we come full circle: there's still a massive talent gap with this team.

JD will have to stay healthy here 5+`years to even start to post decent numbers with his arm. If he keeps running like last Sunday he'll be out by year two.

 

This is gonna be a loooong season.

 

Edited September 13 by El Mexican

[dunfer]

11 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I just never remember seeing Russell Wilson taking a big hit after a run.  And we saw him a ton when he was in Seattle and he ran a lot and always finished with a slide and poped right up. I am doubting a head first turtle roll or whatever it's called is safer than a simple slide.  

Tall and lanky vs short and compact probably has something to do with it. Russ was also a baseball player and definately one of those kids you could chase around a yard for ten minutes and never catch him...but hed always be five feet from you

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, El Mexican said:

 

It's not like our players aren't pros. They know TB is hella hot this time of the year.

 

If what you say is valid then our entire organization has some serious intelligence deficit from the owner to the conditioning trainer.

 

 

 

Look like many here I've been in all types of weather.  I don't get the argument that as long as you are intellectually prepared for it -- you are ready. It's about what you are used to.

 

It's not like the Dolphins aren't aware when they are traveling up north during the winter it will be cold.  Or teams from up north aren't aware that going to Miami or Tampa in September will be hot and humid as hell. But yeah there is a reason why the Dolphins tend to suck in the cold and conversely do great when its uber hot. 

 

This team can read weather reports.  I agree.  That's not my point.  Heck I live in Florida.  As an example I run just about every morning in the heat-humidity.  I am used to it and yes that matters.  A friend of mine from college who like me likes to run-jog can't handle running in this weather when he comes to visit me.

 

 

[skinny21]

8 hours ago, El Mexican said:

 

It's not like our players aren't pros. They know TB is hella hot this time of the year.

 

If what you say is valid then our entire organization has some serious intelligence deficit from the owner to the conditioning trainer.

 

It just seemed the Bucs came out to play reagardless of the weather. We hardly did, excuses aside.

 

 

Same came be said about December-January games. Everything just looked sloppy.

 

So it's a practice failure? C'monnn.

Something about your “everything just looked sloppy” comment was nagging at me and I finally figured it out.  No false starts, illegal formation or holding penalties on offense.  Just two offensive penalties - the block in the back and Wylie being downfield on the blown up Bates screen.  Pretty surprising with a new offense, rookie qb and 4 new starters on the oline… not to mention the new oline rules and facing a heavy blitz scheme.

 

It was certainly pretty sloppy though - lot of pass pro issues, tackling woes, couldn’t slow down White as a receiver, poor kicking game, and some coaching errors.  A few specific plays stood out too.  Forbes’ triple whammy (PI, face mask penalty and injury), Daniels’ backwards pass, the failed trick play, and even Daniels’ awkward tumbles.

 

On the bright side, even with all of that, if we hit one of the missed FGs and just a couple of those “how the heck did Baker escape that?”  plays go our way/stall drives and maybe we’re looking at more like a 23-23 game.

[El Mexican]

8 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Something about your “everything just looked sloppy” comment was nagging at me and I finally figured it out.  No false starts, illegal formation or holding penalties on offense.  Just two offensive penalties - the block in the back and Wylie being downfield on the blown up Bates screen.  Pretty surprising with a new offense, rookie qb and 4 new starters on the oline… not to mention the new oline rules and facing a heavy blitz scheme.

 

It was certainly pretty sloppy though - lot of pass pro issues, tackling woes, couldn’t slow down White as a receiver, poor kicking game, and some coaching errors.  A few specific plays stood out too.  Forbes’ triple whammy (PI, face mask penalty and injury), Daniels’ backwards pass, the failed trick play, and even Daniels’ awkward tumbles.

 

On the bright side, even with all of that, if we hit one of the missed FGs and just a couple of those “how the heck did Baker escape that?”  plays go our way/stall drives and maybe we’re looking at more like a 23-23 game.

 

That's a big "if". Game was out of reach constantly. TB led the entire time.

 

Maybe we'll do better against NYG.