ArsT: “Outrageously” priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

[Renegade7]

48 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said:

A can of tuna or a few eggs also cost $1.25 and people are still going to choose the Pop-Tarts.

 

You know how hard it is to get a toddler to eat tuna with eggs?

 

 

I saw someone mention coercion...one thing I've tried that's helping (especially with new foods) is to let them drink a juice they love little as a reward for eating a little. Not at all at the end at a light at the end of the tunnel and not water "because it's healthy and they don't drink enough at school"...be reasonable.

 

I say this because talking to some other parents at church going through it with their kids not wanting food from home and not sure what to feed them (Wife is Nigerian so I go to a predominetly African church).

 

I know my kids are being given pop tarts at daycare, but everytime I pick up a box to buy and read the back I jus can't put it in the cart (even if I know they'll eat it). I don't give it to them. There are none in our house.

 

I know there's no shortage of bad options at a buffet, but in an attempt to get to know my kids and them not knowing what they like until they try it it was worth it. Multiple times over.

 

In the interest of keeping this convo honest, I may be biased and I do have strong opinions. But I do wish to see more posts about actually feeding their own family, especially with their own kids, and what's its like to do that on a budget and not dominated by junk food (especially when both parents work).  Don't give advice you won't take yourself.

 

This is where I'm struggling to turn my empathy off and demanding a wholesale change to multiple aspects of this conversation (which I am seeing in this thread, and as usually, I'm learning, too).

[Califan007 The Constipated]

23 minutes ago, tshile said:

I think the 6000/month is just total expenses not just food. 

 

 

Ah, ok... 👍 I was about to say lol...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

21 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I'm not seeing it now.  Pulled if off a web page.  Though it does seem like I must have messed it up.  But groceries aren't getting the whole picture either, because it excludes people eating out.  Even basic fastfood isn't going to be included in that.  In a society where many people eat out often and that's partly a contributor to obesity, the grocery bill isn't capturing the full picture.  I did also mess up the math before.  You'd already taken into account a family of 3 so I've got an extra multiplication in there so (and certainly $7.74 to feed a family of 3 is better than you are getting eating out today even eating out at fastfood).

 

Though I don't understand why that's an awful comparison.  What people could spend on something that is relatively healthy vs. their actual total spending seems like a reasonable comparison.

 

Why don't you tell me what you think we should compare things to and we'll go from there?

 

What would be a reasonable costs or a relatively cheap costs for most Americans to eat healthy and why that number?

 

I think a term like "relatively cheap" should be applied to like items...bananas are relatively cheap compared to apples, apples are relatively cheap compared to strawberries. French Press coffee urns are relatively cheap compared to Keurig machines...etc, etc.

 

When we talk about it the way you were doing it, it's more appropriate to talk in terms of "small" not "cheap." For instance, "$11 on fruit is a relatively small amount compared to the $200 you spent total at the grocery store." THAT would be a good argument if I started ****ing about the price of fruit after throwing down $200 bucks on everything else.

[DCSaints_fan]

15 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

You know how hard it is to get a toddler to eat tuna with eggs?

 

 

I saw someone mention coercion...one thing I've tried that's helping (especially with new foods) is to let them drink a juice they love little as a reward for eating a little. Not at all at the end at a light at the end of the tunnel and not water "because it's healthy and they don't drink enough at school"...be reasonable.

 

I say this because talking to some other parents at church going through it with their kids not wanting food from home and not sure what to feed them (Wife is Nigerian so I go to a predominetly African church).

 

I know my kids are being given pop tarts at daycare, but everytime I pick up a box to buy and read the back I jus can't put it in the cart (even if I know they'll eat it). I don't give it to them. There are none in our house.

 

I know there's no shortage of bad options at a buffet, but in an attempt to get to know my kids and them not knowing what they like until they try it it was worth it. Multiple times over.

 

Toddlers are going to love their starches, because they're basically still babies at that point.  Example, I don't think chicken nuggets are a terrible option, at least there is protein.  Mixing in cheese with vegetables (e.g. brocolli) is better than them absolutely refusing it.

 

Later in childhood, closer to puberty is where I think the good habits need to start being developed.

Edited May 20 by DCSaints_fan

[Califan007 The Constipated]

19 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

There is some evidence that drug ads are actually in totality beneficial.

 

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/the-hidden-benefits-of-tv-drug-ads1

 

 

My eyes glossed over while reading that lol 😐...what's the tl:dr version?

[Renegade7]

Just now, DCSaints_fan said:

Toddlers are going to love their starches, because they're basically still babies at that point.  Later in childhood, closer to puberty is where I think the good habits need to start being developed.

 

Can't wait until then to get them eat veggies, though.

 

If I have to trick them, so be it, until we can try straight up.

 

There's a 100% juice version of V8 splash, I use Veggie based rotini and chubky red sauce, mixing mixed veggies into baked beans or Mac 'n cheese.

 

The struggle is real, we had a good run with the applesauce packs with veggies mixed in, but they were getting so many outside that were jus fruit they both jus look them up and down now.

[tshile]

We force our children to eat what we eat. They are currently 5 and 8 years old. 
 

There are times where it’s difficult and we have compromised in ways like - eat half of this then we can get you something else you’d prefer. There have been times where we simply wrap up their plate, excuse them from the table, and when they say they’re hungry later we give them their plate of food they didn’t eat. 
 

All in all it seems to have been worth it so far. We also just don’t have ****ty food in the house. Zero sodas, I don’t even drink them anymore despite basically being raised on them. So if they want a snack, goldfish and teddy grams and cheezits are about all they’re gonna find that isn’t healthy. 
 

I know of lots of people that basically make two dinners every night. One for the kids which consists of thinks like chicken nuggets or fishstix or whatever is from the freezer to the oven; one for the parents. We refuse to do that. 
 

we certainly let them have fun kid food frequently, it’s just not the norm and the expectation is they eat what we give them. Again it helps when what’s available is healthy or close enough. Candy, soda, chips, or other heavily processed cheap food just isn’t an option in our house.

 

 

Edited May 20 by tshile

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Is anyone shocked that @tshile is the uncool parent?  I’m surprised we are still taking about this. Tax unhealthy food, subsidize healthy food. 
 

but America does the opposite.

[tshile]

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I feel like people lean too heavily on things they “like”

 

I have preferences. I also know I can force them to change. My early adult life consisted of cream and sugar in my coffee. One day I decided I drink too much coffee to put cream and sugar in every cup - switching to black coffee was hard, because I wasn’t used to it, but it didn’t take long and now it’s the only coffee I can drink. Which is nice because now I’m never in a bind where I don’t like the creamer available… there are plenty of other examples where simply deciding to make a change, long term resulted in actually liking what I changed to eating/drinking. 
 

if you use that you “like” something as a crutch, you won’t change. Some things you’ll never like - others you just haven’t given enough of a chance to like. 
 

Lifting weights is hard and sucks at the beginning. You’re ****ing sore all the time, you’re carving out time you’d rather do other things, but after so many weeks it becomes something you enjoy; the sore feeling becomes something you desire and it gets less painful and becomes just evidence your improving yourself. Over 6 months I went from lifting 30 minutes 3 times a week to an hour 3 times a week to an hour every day (which actually isn’t how it works out, there’s always a day I miss, but I start every morning with the intention of working out that day - and most days it happens.) how busy my life is didn’t change (if anything it’s worse), and neither did anything else. I just became more willing to invest time in that, as i learned to enjoy it more and more. Just like everything else in life. 
 

people get stuck in patterns or routines and struggle to break out of them. 
i went 2 weeks not working out after new years because i was traveling. I made the excuse I didn’t have time - even though every hotel I stayed in had a gym. That dumbassery led to falling out of my routine and going back to not working out again; for 4.5 months.  
 

what you eat and how you take care of your body is a choice and if you don’t make it a point to make smart choices, no one’s gonna do it for you. 
 

and if you don’t teach your kids that it’s important to do certain things, regardless if they like it or not, they’re gonna struggle to take care of themselves as adults. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Surprisingly, by the time my daughter was a teen she HATED hamburgers, french fries, pizza...and absolutely LOVED salads. She often refused to eat chicken (she eats it now).

 

But she has always loved, still loves, and always will love Mexican food lol...

 

I'm so proud.

 

 

[tshile]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Surprisingly, by the time my daughter was a teen she HATED hamburgers, french fries, pizza...and absolutely LOVED salads. She often refused to eat chicken (she eats it now).

 

But she has always loved, still loves, and always will love Mexican food lol...

This is literally my 5 year old daughter. She eats like her mom. We got to a restaurant and she orders a salad with a hard boiled egg. 
 

again, she’s 5. 
 

but she loves tacos, we have them every week

 

my son on the other hand will only eat a cheeseburger when we’re out, doesn’t matter what type of restaurant it is. 🤦🏼‍♂️
 

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Is anyone shocked that @tshile is the uncool parent?  I’m surprised we are still taking about this. Tax unhealthy food, subsidize healthy food. 
 

but America does the opposite.

 

I'm not gonna pretend my Mom was any cooler growing up.

 

When my Dad was diagnosed Type 2 Diabetic, Suddenly everyone in the house was diabetic, the ultimate double-down.

 

She backed off after my Dad begged his doctor for mercy he could take home to her.  Moderation.

 

Life lessons, but with heart disease and diabetes common on my Dad's side, I respect my Mom for making my eyes roll on saving my life my entire childhood via diet...but she kinda did.

 

I eventually gave up keeping ginger ale in the house (ginger beer is superior, but not on deck)

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

This is literally my 5 year old daughter. She eats like her mom. We got to a restaurant and she orders a salad with a hard boiled egg. 
 

again, she’s 5. 
 

but she loves tacos, we have them every week

 

my son on the other hand will only eat a cheeseburger when we’re out, doesn’t matter what type of restaurant it is. 🤦🏼‍♂️
 

 

Are we related? lol...😐

[tshile]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm not gonna pretend my Mom was any cooler growing up.

I grew up on chips and soda

 

The rule in my house is if you want something g in the house, go get it. 
 

my wife does the grocery shopping. She does not want chips and soda. 
 

so we have a house without chips and soda. The world still goes round and I’ve learned to enjoy not consuming chips and soda constantly 🤷‍♂️ 

[Larry]

4 hours ago, tshile said:

Was watching one the other day and thought to myself - why are they allowed to do this?

 

your doctor should be the one pitching medication to you, as needed. 
 

people googling medical advise and using commercials to demand things from their doctors is ass backwards. 

 

Been thinking that for a few decades. At least for prescription medications. 

 

To me, the reason the drug needs a prescription is because nobody but a doctor can decide if it's right for you. 

 

Maybe I'd be OK with advertising like "if you have collywobbles, there's anew medication out. Ask your doctor about it."  

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

I can't believe that most people think that Pop Tarts taste good. No wonder I have never been overweight.

 

I've noticed I eat a ton more of them now that I'm retired. Probably some connection there.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

By the way...

 

24 minutes ago, tshile said:

my son on the other hand will only eat a cheeseburger when we’re out, doesn’t matter what type of restaurant it is.

 

 

 

Is this your son?

 

 

[tshile]

@Califan007 The Constipated

its not far off 😆 

 

except he plays sports. Does well too but that’s not hard when you’re 8…

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

My eyes glossed over while reading that lol 😐...what's the tl:dr version?

 

Basically, that doctors don't do a good job of talking to their patients about their health and/or people don't go to doctors regularly.  But if a patient sees something advertised to treat something they have wrong with them, they will see a doctor specifically bring it up to the doctor.  And then the doctor can prescribe it for them.  And then getting people treated for diseases is good and saves everybody money.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

In the interest of keeping this convo honest, I may be biased and I do have strong opinions. But I do wish to see more posts about actually feeding their own family, especially with their own kids, and what's its like to do that on a budget and not dominated by junk food (especially when both parents work).  Don't give advice you won't take yourself.

 

 

First, I wouldn't stress over it too much.  It is interesting because at some level there is conflicting science.  The studies show that forcing kids is a mistake and that parents doing X, Y, and Z have affects A, B, and C.  But studies also show other than the extremes not much you do actually impacts the final results of kids growing up.  So I think generally kids are going to come out the way they are going to come out.

 

And I see that with my own kids.  With my oldest daughter, we absolutely used coercion in terms of eating vegetables (We did you can't leave the table until you at least eat some small part of whatever the vegetable was).  We regulated candy in take. Etc.  Today she eats great and regulates well on her own.  She's now 18 but even the last years she was trick or treating, she'd have left over Halloween candy at Easter without our input/regulation.  She goes out to eat, and she almost always brings home leftovers.  And she'll try all sort of things and has expended her diet on her own to include vegetables we didn't have her eat growing up.

 

With my younger daughter we had less time to worry about the eating and doing things like sitting at the table for a long time because she wouldn't eat a vegetable and I became more aware of the literature (it really seems the literature grew in those 4 years).  We got away from coercion in terms of eating vegetables and did more in terms of what the science is/was saying.  Today she eats 4 vegetables.  Hasn't added another one in years.  Doesn't regulate well and will eat all of her Halloween candy in a few days.

 

The science say coercion doesn't work.  In my household, the out come was better when we used coercion.  I have a feeling if we'd flipped things, the outcome would have been pretty much the same.

 

I think in terms of the science, the people doing the work would say don't bribe.  That's really just a step away from coercion.  The science says to model and just keep putting things in front of them in repeatedly (repetition appears to be key for anybody eating something new) but also try different forms.

 

In terms of being busy, I think eating on a schedule works well (I also think it helps in terms of a budget).  It isn't something that we've done, but it is how my wife and I both grew up (I think food shows, blogs, and like the NYT cooking section (that my wife likes to read) has affected people's thinking and my wife essentially won't schedule dinners, even though she complains about how hard it is to come up with different dinners.  I suggest just having a schedule, but she doesn't want to.  There is a sense that you have to try new things and make exciting and new dinners that didn't seem to exist among our parents when we were young.  I'm not sure where that's come from, but I think food tv shows, blogs, etc..)  Growing up, I didn't have to ask what was for dinner.  It was Monday night, we had the Monday night dinner.

 

Certainly, I think modeling for kids is good.  I see that with my kids some and when I was growing up.  But don't pretend.  It is okay if you don't like everything with every dinner.  I don't claim to like broccoli, but I eat. it.  Even pasta.  Saturday night was spaghetti night when I was growing up.  I don't like pasta.  Every Saturday night I ate spaghetti.  Sunday night was meatloaf.  My mom loved meatloaf.  My dad didn't like it.  Every Sunday night my dad ate meatloaf.  We had dinners that mom didn't like too.  She'd normally eat a salad.  I didn't like spaghetti but to young me, it was better than a salad.  Today we have pasta some nights.  My kids and wife like it.  I don't, but I eat it anyway.

 

Now as part of that, I think not having things that shouldn't be eaten in the house not in the house is important (and I don't mean have it but hide it).  One reason I ate spaghetti every Saturday was because as much I didn't like it there wasn't anything really in the house that I did like.  (I grew up relatively poor so there was rarely just extra food in the house.  Things like crackers and chips essentially didn't exist in our house.  Pretty much all the food we had was earmarked for something.  If you didn't eat the dinner on the table that night there were limited options (salad).  And we do that today but differently.  There are lots of fruits and veggies in the house.  We rarely have chips, crackers, etc.  If you are hungry and looking for something to eat, you are much more likely to come across a fruit or veggie first.  I believe without real coercion kids will eat when they are hungry, and they will eat is (readily) available.  If the most readily available thing is fruit or veggies, that's what they will eat.  If you don't eat processed food and don't have it in the house, just practically they can't it either.)

Edited May 20 by PeterMP

[LadySkinsFan]

My monthly food budget this year was about $225/month. In July (month of all the increases in rent and health insurance), I have to decrease to $175. For me and Dancer. It's very meager, I won't afford fruit and fresh veggies. I'll buy frozen veggies. Wide variety and inexpensive. And go to the food banks every month. I went a few years ago and stopped because I made some budget changes. It's time to go back.

[EmirOfShmo]

1 hour ago, LadySkinsFan said:

My monthly food budget this year was about $225/month. In July (month of all the increases in rent and health insurance), I have to decrease to $175. For me and Dancer. It's very meager, I won't afford fruit and fresh veggies. I'll buy frozen veggies. Wide variety and inexpensive. And go to the food banks every month. I went a few years ago and stopped because I made some budget changes. It's time to go back.

 

Damn, that's a tough budget. On the plus side, frozen veggies & fruit are very healthy & cheaper than fresh. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

We just got $175 of stoner snacks delivered from Costco.

[DCSaints_fan]

17 hours ago, tshile said:

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I feel like people lean too heavily on things they “like”

 

I have preferences. I also know I can force them to change. My early adult life consisted of cream and sugar in my coffee. One day I decided I drink too much coffee to put cream and sugar in every cup - switching to black coffee was hard, because I wasn’t used to it, but it didn’t take long and now it’s the only coffee I can drink. Which is nice because now I’m never in a bind where I don’t like the creamer available… there are plenty of other examples where simply deciding to make a change, long term resulted in actually liking what I changed to eating/drinking. 
 

if you use that you “like” something as a crutch, you won’t change. Some things you’ll never like - others you just haven’t given enough of a chance to like. 
 

Lifting weights is hard and sucks at the beginning. You’re ****ing sore all the time, you’re carving out time you’d rather do other things, but after so many weeks it becomes something you enjoy; the sore feeling becomes something you desire and it gets less painful and becomes just evidence your improving yourself. Over 6 months I went from lifting 30 minutes 3 times a week to an hour 3 times a week to an hour every day (which actually isn’t how it works out, there’s always a day I miss, but I start every morning with the intention of working out that day - and most days it happens.) how busy my life is didn’t change (if anything it’s worse), and neither did anything else. I just became more willing to invest time in that, as i learned to enjoy it more and more. Just like everything else in life. 
 

people get stuck in patterns or routines and struggle to break out of them. 
i went 2 weeks not working out after new years because i was traveling. I made the excuse I didn’t have time - even though every hotel I stayed in had a gym. That dumbassery led to falling out of my routine and going back to not working out again; for 4.5 months.  
 

what you eat and how you take care of your body is a choice and if you don’t make it a point to make smart choices, no one’s gonna do it for you. 
 

and if you don’t teach your kids that it’s important to do certain things, regardless if they like it or not, they’re gonna struggle to take care of themselves as adults. 

 

Sorry if I come across as a naysayer but lifting more than an hour everyday, or even 6 days a week on average is going to be massive  overtraining for most people who aren't bodybuilders/power lifters on gear.  And even a fair amount of those don't put in that much work

[PeterMP]

21 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

There is always a cut-off point where eating unhealthy/bad food starts to affect our bodies negatively for the long haul.

 

So, eating 6 pop tarts a day as meals could lead me to gaining 40 lbs over the next year, as where cutting it down to 4 pop tarts a day I'll only gain 30 lbs lol...either way, you're gaining too much weight, as well as ****ing up your body in numerous other ways from that unhealthy diet.

 

This got lost in the shuffle the other day.  Great your down to four poptarts for your meal and still easily putting on weight. Cut it to 2 poptarts.  You've now gone from 6 poptarts to 2 poptarts which means you're saving money that you can use to buy healthier food.  Even cut it to 1 poptart and use the saved money to add in some healthier food.

 

You're still gaining weight.  Great.  Eat 1/2 a poptart.

 

(The science of nutrition is some what still in flux, but generally in terms of obesity it appears the issue with most processed foods is they are carb/fat  and calorie heavy and water, fiber, and nutrient poor.  I think this is a better reflection of actuality of most people's eating than the 2 hot dog and lentil soup example.  Somebody eating 3 poptarts is getting a reasonable number of calories for a meal and not even an unreasonable number of carbs, but they are probably going to feel hungry soon and their body is probably shunting more of those calories into fat than if they ate something else.  Carb spikes cause hormones that shift metabolism to fat production to spike.

 

There appears to be an interaction between the physical act of eating and being hungry and how much space the food physically takes up in the stomach.  I think most people can eat 3 poptarts in 3 minutes.  Your body isn't evolved to be used to being able to take in over 300 calories that quickly taking up that little space and so won't think it is full.  Small bites, chew well, eat slowly can help with that.  Compared to most natural foods, the poptarts are water and fiber poor.  I'd generally suggest eating real foods that are high in fiber and water (celery would be good) and even drinking some water while eating.  But you can buy fiber supplements cheaply, and there is evidence that they help suppress appetite.  Those things will help convince your body that it has taken in a reasonable number of calories as with the fiber and fluid the stomach feels full and the length of time to eat wasn't too fast.  Fiber also slows down the metabolizing of the carbs in the poptart and can even out the carb spike and make it less likely the body triggers increased fat production (eating more slowly itself also helps with that).

 

Poptarts and most processed food are nutrient poor so even if you've eaten them and your body thinks it has taken in a normal amount of calories because you've eaten slowly and added fiber and liquid, you're likely still going to be hungry again soon.  Again, eating real food is probably better, but there is evidence that a multi-vitamin can help with that (and also not very expensive).  That should help some in terms of your body won't be hungry because your missing some vitamins.  

 

Your still carb heavy and protein poor, so you'd likely still end up hungry again and so adding some protein somehow would likely be a good idea.  Even protein powders can likely help with this.  They're relatively expensive (I calculated $2.85 per a serving at my local grocery store, but a serving is your 50 g of protein which if the FDA suggested total protein for a day, so you can really split that over 3-4 meals).  Eggs, bean, and nuts, are generally good relatively cheap natural options.)

 

And again, my original comments were based on the majority of the Americans.  Your person eating 6 poptarts for a meal because that's what they can afford isn't the majority of the people.  We lead the world in drinking sugary drinks and in eating fastfood.  Those aren't money issues.

 

But the reality is that if you are eating processed food because it is what you think you can afford and your are gaining an unhealthy amount of weight, you don't have a money problem.  You have a knowledge/decision making problem.  You are actually spending more money than you need on food.  You can afford to buy less processed food and spend some money on other things that increase your fiber, increase your nutrient in take, and balance out your calorie distribution.