Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Fergasun]

143 countries voted to support Palestinian statehood. 9 voted against (major being the US).  25 voted to abstain. 

 

Palestinians hate their official government (PA/Fatah) because they feel like it cooperates too much with Israel, and then when people protest against it, their security forces put them down.  They support Hamas, but I suspect it is the same way North Korea "supports" Kim Jong Un and Russia "supports" Putin.  I also read in my research that Gazans want PA/Fatah and West Bank residents want Hamas. But, I see videos of Hamas shooting their own people.  

 

Very interesting read:

 

https://ctc.westpoint.edu/the-road-to-october-7-hamas-long-game-clarified/

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

11 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

143 countries voted to support Palestinian statehood. 9 voted against (major being the US).  25 voted to abstain. 

 

Palestinians hate their official government (PA/Fatah) because they feel like it cooperates too much with Israel, and then when people protest against it, their security forces put them down.  They support Hamas, but I suspect it is the same way North Korea "supports" Kim Jong Un and Russia "supports" Putin.  I also read in my research that Gazans want PA/Fatah and West Bank residents want Hamas. But, I see videos of Hamas shooting their own people.  

 

Very interesting read:

 

https://ctc.westpoint.edu/the-road-to-october-7-hamas-long-game-clarified/

 

Again an optimistic take. They support Hamas but they don’t actually support Hamas.

 

I guess America supports the president the elect but they really don’t support the president they elect.

1 hour ago, ixcuincle said:

Both sides can be ****

 

Hamas instigated it but Israel is going overboard

 

I just hope we can reach a truce soon I'm tired of violence

Hamas’ infrastructure should be destroyed in Gaza. No truce, but a surrender. (And failing that, as I said all/most of Hamas infrastructure destroyed). A truce just pushes this down the road.

[Barry.Randolphe]

 

 

[Fergasun]

"Blocked" or "destroyed"?

 

Order 9 movement...

 

 

[ixcuincle]

6 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Again an optimistic take. They support Hamas but they don’t actually support Hamas.

 

I guess America supports the president the elect but they really don’t support the president they elect.

Hamas’ infrastructure should be destroyed in Gaza. No truce, but a surrender. (And failing that, as I said all/most of Hamas infrastructure destroyed). A truce just pushes this down the road.

I'm alarmed it's taking this long to reach a ceasefire. We had one briefly but that's long gone now, and Israel even proposed one a few days back but Hamas denied it as usual

 

[tshile]

Quote

The Biden administration notified Congress on Tuesday that it was moving forward with more than $1 billion in new weapons deals for Israel, U.S. and congressional officials said, a massive arms package less than a week after the White House paused a shipment of bombs over a planned Israeli assault on Rafah.

 

The latest weapons package includes the potential transfer of $700 million in tank ammunition, $500 million in tactical vehicles and $60 million in mortar rounds, the officials said. There are still additional steps before the weapons would be approved and delivered.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/biden-moves-forward-on-1-billion-in-new-arms-for-israel-844b761c

 

 

[ixcuincle]

U.S. poised to send $1 billion in weapons to Israel, sources say https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-weapons-transfer-1-billion/

 

The Biden administration has informed Congress that it intends to transfer $1 billion in weapons to Israel, two congressional sources confirmed to CBS News Tuesday.

 

Congress will need to approve the transfer. The Wall Street Journal was first to report the news. 

 

The move comes days after the U.S. withheld shipments of certain munitions to Israel, and President Biden said in an interview with CNN that the U.S. would further curtail weapons shipments if Israel broadened its ground offensive to include civilian population centers in the southern Gaza city of Rafah.

 

 

"We are continuing to send military assistance, and we will ensure that Israel receives the full amount provided in the supplemental," National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said Monday, referring to a recently signed funding package that includes about $14 billion for Israel's defense. 

[Larry]

Admiring the phrase "for Israel's defense".  

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

On 4/27/2024 at 5:05 PM, PeterMP said:

 

 

 

Nobody has claimed credit for it, so it isn't clear that Hamas attacked it. Hamas has publicly said that they won't attack unless it becomes used to house foreign troops.

 

 

 

No aid to Gaza unless it meets Hamas demands…

Edited May 17 by CousinsCowgirl84

[PeterMP]

18 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

No aid to Gaza unless it meets Hamas demands…

 

As I pointed out at the time of that conversation, Hamas has said from the beginning that they don't support aid based on having some other country's military deliver the aid.  That hasn't changed. They certainly don't want the Israeli military being in charge of delivering aid.  I also gave you an article at the time where different people were saying that it looked Israel might bet allowing the aid as a cover for other military operations.  I said at the time that since Israel's military was involved in delivering the aid, Hamas might attack it.

 

None of that has any bearing on the post that you quoted (and you being wrong).  The US was not claiming that Hamas launched the attacks and Hamas did not take credit for them.  And I believe both of those things are still true.

 

And Israel has essentially said the same thing.  No aid to Gaza unless it flows through their military, they set the terms, and control it.  You've got two sides saying the same thing.  That isn't surprising.  I don't think it is hard to understand why Hamas/Palestinians are against that.  And I also understand why Israel wants to be able to control the aid.

 

From my perspective, it looks like you have two sides that aren't actually interested in helping innocent people not starve to death and get basic medical care.  Of which, we only support one (and support them very heavily).

Edited May 18 by PeterMP

[Fergasun]

NYT: The View Within Israel Turns Bleak

By Megan K. Stack

Link, but it is paywalled...

Quote

But Israel’s slaughter in Gaza, the creeping famine, the wholesale destruction of neighborhoods — this, polling suggests, is the war the Israeli public wanted. A January survey found that 94 percent of Jewish Israelis said the force being used against Gaza was appropriate or even insufficient. In February, a poll found that most Jewish Israelis opposed food and medicine getting into Gaza. It was not Mr. Netanyahu alone but also his war cabinet members (including Benny Gantz, often invoked as the moderate alternative to Mr. Netanyahu) who unanimously rejected a Hamas deal to free Israeli hostages and, instead, began an assault on the city of Rafah, overflowing with displaced civilians.

...

Quote

Israel has hardened, and the signs of it are in plain view. Dehumanizing language and promises of annihilation from military and political leaders. Polls that found wide support for the policies that have wreaked devastation and starvation in Gaza. Selfies of Israeli soldiers preening proudly in bomb-crushed Palestinian neighborhoods. A crackdown on even mild forms of dissent among Israelis. The Israeli left — the factions that criticize the occupation of Palestinian lands and favor negotiations and peace instead — is now a withered stump of a once-vigorous movement. In recent years, the attitudes of many Israelis toward the “Palestinian problem” have ranged largely from detached fatigue to the hard-line belief that driving Palestinians off their land and into submission is God’s work.

There is a lot more.  Essentially the past 15 years, the Israel public has grown indifferent to the Palestinians.  Additonally, life ain't so great for the Arab population there either, who fear getting murdered.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

From my perspective, it looks like you have two sides that aren't actually interested in helping innocent people not starve to death and get basic medical care.  Of which, we only support one (and support them very heavily).

Only one of them is supposed to have the Palestinian interests at heart, though.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Only one of them is supposed to have the Palestinian interests at heart, though.

 

I've made this same point multiple times in this thread.  Whether what Hamas is and has done is in the Palestinians best interest is a matter of perspective and time.  If the result is a Palestinian state that wouldn't have happened otherwise, then their actions can be considered in the best of interest of Palestinians.

 

And Israel should absolutely have the Palestinians best interest at heart.  Because otherwise what they are going to end up with another generation of militant Palestinians and more dead Israelis/Jews in the future.  Not caring about the Palestinians likely will contribute to future attacks by Palestinians.  That Israel's actions have no bearing on future Palestinian actions (and the resulting dead Israelis/Jews) is a dumb idea.  Israel should care about what happens to innocent Palestinians and even Hamas oriented/associated Palestinians just like we did for Germans that had been pro-Nazi and associated with the Nazis and pro-Emperor Japanese towards the end of WWII and post-WWII.

 

(Though, I will also recognize almost the flip is true for Israel as it is for Hamas.  If you decide what is best for Israel is the elimination of Palestinians from historical Palestine then as long as Israel have widespread support (especially from the US), then continuing the cycle of might actually be good for Israel and you could argue that Israel's actions are good for Israel.)

 

(And really, everybody should have everybody's best interest at heart.  We as a human species are best off when everybody has a chance to succeed.  I find the argument that any entity shouldn't have some other people's (on a wide spread level) best interest at heart morally appalling and strategically dumb.  The governments of Iran, Russia, China, N. Korea, Palestine, are all problems.  But we should have the best interest of those people at heart.  Whatever the solution is to Russia is going to require taking into account the best interest of the Russian people as whole, and it is just morally and ethically the right thing to do.   Having other people's best interest at heart and to do unto others as you'd have them do unto you is just one of those things that happens at a large scale and the vast majority of times to be the smart things to do and the ethically/morally right thing to do.) 

Edited May 18 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

On 5/13/2024 at 11:56 PM, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

 

 

I saw stuff like this last week, but didn't want to post it because couldn't tell if it was real or not.

 

Then AlJazerra showed it...

 

Now this...

On 5/17/2024 at 7:31 PM, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

 

No aid to Gaza unless it meets Hamas demands…

 

With all due respect, Hamas is no longer in a position to say what should happen with the future of Gaza or the terms of how aid should get in now that US built a fn pier to circumvent the ****show that is the border crossings.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

4 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

I've made this same point multiple times in this thread.  Whether what Hamas is and has done is in the Palestinians best interest is a matter of perspective and time.

 

 

Yes, like you said, killing and starving Palestinians is in their own interest! The protestors should be ashamed of themselves. Genocide is the only way to guarantee statehood. If it worked for Israel is bound to work for Palestine.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

And Israel should absolutely have the Palestinians best interest at heart.

according to you, they do 🤷‍♂️

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

With all due respect, Hamas is no longer in a position to say what should happen with the future of Gaza or the terms of how aid should get in now that US built a fn pier to circumvent the ****show that is the border crossings.

Agreed. My issue is that people like @PeterMP pretend Hamas actions are justifiable. Trying to claim they are working in the Palestinians best interests. **** that.

[PeterMP]

6 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

 

Yes, like you said, killing and starving Palestinians is in their own interest! The protestors should be ashamed of themselves. Genocide is the only way to guarantee statehood. If it worked for Israel is bound to work for Palestine.

 

 

 

according to you, they do 🤷‍♂️

Agreed. My issue is that people like @PeterMP pretend Hamas actions are justifiable. Trying to claim they are working in the Palestinians best interests. **** that.

 

I know by now that any sort of nuance is lost on you.  But I just want to point out that I didn't say any of the things that you've said I've said or pretended like they did.

 

I didn't say it was in their own best interest.  I don't pretend to know the future and all of its possible alternatives.  But if the future options for the Palestinians are a slow ground down of the Palestinians in Palestine over the next century until there are no Palestinians left in Palestine or a lot of dead Palestinians now and a viable state in 15 years, I suspect a lot of Palestinians would chose the state with the deaths.  Now, I don't know and I'm not going to pretend those are the only two alternatives or that either one of those is actually an alternative, and I'm not sure that Hamas has put them on a road to a state in 15 years.  I'm not saying that what Hamas is doing is in the Palestinians best interests.  I don't know the future.

 

Israel is not working in the Palestinians interest because they could agree to a viable Palestinian state tomorrow or could have really any time over the last 70 years or so now.  That that's what you've got is telling.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

I didn't say it was in their own best interest.

 

 

yea, you just said it’s possible. And if it happens then their actions are justifiable. That is not right.

 

If there was a viable government within Gaza they would have a Palestinian state by now. They don’t not because of Israel, but because they themselves are inept. They’ve chosen to be led by terrorists and the corrupt. Thats on them.

 

 

Edited May 19 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Larry]

3 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

If there was a viable government within Gaza they would have a Palestinian state by now.

 

If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon. 

 

- Montgomery Scott. 

[PeterMP]

14 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

 

yea, you just said it’s possible. And if it happens then their actions are justifiable. That is not right.

 

If there was a viable government within Gaza they would have a Palestinian state by now. They don’t not because of Israel, but because they themselves are inept. They’ve chosen to be led by terrorists and the corrupt. Thats on them.

 

How would they have a Palestinians state by now?   Explain how you see that coming to be.  What evidence do you have that Israel was going to allow for the creation of a Palestinian state?  You are aware that the issues there easily pre-date Hamas, right?

Edited May 19 by PeterMP

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

How would they have a Palestinians state by now?   Explain how you see that coming to be.  What evidence do you have that Israel was going to allow for the creation of a Palestinian state?  You are aware that the issues there easily pre-date Hamas, right?

Effective government would have allowed them to lobby Israel, international organizations, regional allies in order to persuade Israel to head in the direction of a Palestinian state. But for sure, no one wants to work with a bunch of **** flingers or otherwise corrupt/inept leadership. It’s like you think countries that have positive outcomes have just lucked into them, instead of been lead into them.

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Effective government would have allowed them to lobby Israel, international organizations, regional allies in order to persuade Israel to head in the direction of a Palestinian state. But for sure, no one wants to work with a bunch of **** flingers or otherwise corrupt/inept leadership. It’s like you think countries that have positive outcomes have just lucked into them, instead of been lead into them.

 

I believe you are underestimating the amount of influence the far-right has in Israel and its not like they got into office via magic...

 

I'm also not sure what should be the expectations for an "effective government" in an occupied territory.

 

To make sure I'm on same page, when is last time Israeli government formally supported a two-state solution?  I honestly don't know, think I Remember Bibi being open to it, but last I checked hes a hard no right now (open to correction, my point is it take two to tango, it cant jus always be someone elses fault for 50 years.

[zCommander]

6 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Effective government would have allowed them to lobby Israel, international organizations, regional allies in order to persuade Israel to head in the direction of a Palestinian state. But for sure, ....

 

 No Muslim leader or government, functional or not, is not going to "lobby" their enemies to give the rights back to the land that belonged or has been ruled by the Arab Muslims for centuries. It didn't work in 1948 and is not going to work now. There is just too much animosity in that region for any "functional" government. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

 No Muslim leader or government, functional or not, is not going to "lobby" their enemies to give the rights back to the land that belonged or has been ruled by the Arab Muslims for centuries. It didn't work in 1948 and is not going to work now. There is just too much animosity in that region for any "functional" government. 

Yes, enemies communicate all the time. What do you think the leaders of Hamas and Israel were doing in Egypt? They were both “lobbying” with each other over hostage deal. 
 

Now, if your last sentence is saying Palestinians are incapable of forming a functional government, I agree with you. But that’s why there isn’t a viable two state solution.

Edited May 19 by CousinsCowgirl84

[tshile]

This notion that because boundaries used to be X, they must go back to X, always amuses me. 
 

World history is littered with boundaries changing. It’s the same nonsense Russia uses to justify why Ukraine should be theirs (as well as other Eastern European states)

[zCommander]

22 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Yes, enemies communicate all the time. What do you think the leaders of Hamas and Israel were doing in Egypt? They were both “lobbying” with each other over hostage deal. 
 

Now, if your last sentence is saying Palestinians are incapable of forming a functional government, I agree with you. But that’s why there isn’t a viable two state solution.

 

"Lobbying" for hostage is far cry from landing a deal that involves controlling a piece of land and ruling it. Both sides are not going to go, okay you have this piece and I will have this piece. Other Muslim neighboring countries didn't want Israel to have control back in 1948 and that hasn't changed since and it never will no matter how you think these grown ass adults should behave while putting their religious beliefs aside. 

 

In May 1948, less than a year after the Partition Plan for Palestine was introduced, Britain withdrew from Palestine and Israel declared itself an independent state, implying a willingness to implement the Partition Plan. 

 

Almost immediately, neighboring Arab armies moved in to prevent the establishment of the Israeli state. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War that ensued involved Israel and five Arab nations—Transjordan (now Jordan), Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon. By the war's end in July 1949, Israel controlled more than two-thirds of the former British Mandate, while Jordan took control of the West Bank and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip.

 

The 1948 conflict opened a new chapter in the struggle between Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs, which now became a regional contest involving nation-states and a tangle of diplomatic, political and economic interests.

 

https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

 

Edited May 19 by zCommander