abdcskins Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I don't know what to really make of all this. I do not think, however, that Israel reducing Gaza to rubble is the right answer, from a moral standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Destino said: Who said anything about negotiating? It’s time for unconditional surrender. When it’s clear that not only are you losing, but that you lack the ability to even fight back it’s time for leaders to end it. Even if that means falling on their swords to do it. The only decision Hamas has left to make is how many civilians die with them. I’m genuinely surprised the media hasn’t picked up on this. It’s obviously time to surrender. they have to decide in this moment if they are leaders or just terrorists, because for a very long time they have tried to play both sides. Terrorists would continue to hide, and happily use civilian deaths to inspire more terrorism. Leaders would act to spare their people. There’s no room left to keep one foot in either category anymore. Israel could not justify their current course following an unconditional surrender. That is what could bring an immediate end to this. It’s the only card they have left to play that can save their people. whatever leaders come next must negotiate. Hamas has been storing it's weapons and war supplies beneath civilian buildings for decades. They wear civilian clothes and shoot rockets from civilian rooftops and streets. Nothing about it suggests a worry for civilian casualties. I could stick a fork into a power outlet in a nuclear power plant's control room, and I'd still be less shocked than if Hamas announced that they're just surrendering a week after they launched an attack that had a very clear goal to, among other things, slaughter children. The Taliban was/is a government. They harbored Al-Qaeda. They were fine with strapping suicide vests to children while they were out of power. I view Hamas in the same light. I'll be mildly surprised if there aren't suicide bombings the moment Israel begins its occupation. I think their goal is to encourage atrocities. Atrocities create fanatic resistance. Afghanistan is the blueprint for defeating a militarily superior power. If you can't beat them, demoralize them by making them fear the populace that they're supposedly trying to protect. The occupiers will eventually kill innocent locals who the occupiers can't tell apart from actual enemies. The populace resists the occupiers that are shooting at them. How better to resist than join the militia that's fighting them? Eventually, the occupiers decide that there's no progress to be made and pull out. The only sticking point in Gaza is whether Israel will eventually pull out after the damage is done. I think they will. It might take weeks or months, but the international community will eventually force an end to the slaughter. And when they do, Hamas rebuilds with a fresh wave of hatred and resentment that random civilians who had no hand in the conflict will have a pretty good reason for having. Edited October 13, 2023 by NickyJ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 On 10/12/2023 at 12:30 AM, Destino said: There’s an academic looking middle eastern guy on CNN that’s completely delusional. He’s on TV saying that the US has proven to be bad at war in the global south. Also that Hezbollah, who he describes as being very sophisticated and powerful, wouldn’t be dissuaded by the US threatening them. Look I get that the US isn’t awesome at nation building, bad at war? I’ve heard a lot of wild statements but BAD AT WAR? The US is not necessarily bad at nation building either, Japan and Germany became two economic powerhouses with our help in the decades after WWII. We didn’t replicate that level of success in Iraq, and it was a rough journey, but in the end Iraq is a functional, relatively peaceful country that isn’t threatening its neighbors with invasion anymore. Afghanistan is obviously an F on our nation building report card and it’s clear in retrospect that the US was the only thing holding the tribes together and propping up the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said: The US is not necessarily bad at nation building either, Japan and Germany became two economic powerhouses with our help in the decades after WWII. We didn’t replicate that level of success in Iraq, and it was a rough journey, but in the end Iraq is a functional, relatively peaceful country that isn’t threatening its neighbors with invasion anymore. Afghanistan is obviously an F on our nation building report card and it’s clear in retrospect that the US was the only thing holding the tribes together and propping up the government. Perhaps the difference (or a difference) is that before WW2, Germany and Japan were unified countries, with established economies. Maybe the US is pretty good at getting countries we've invaded back to baseline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 12 hours ago, tshile said: Yeah I have no idea where the hamas leaders are. Gaza, Doha, Qatar. link 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I'm going to be frank and honest here but if you poke the bear don't be surprised when the bear claws back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Larry said: Perhaps the difference (or a difference) is that before WW2, Germany and Japan were unified countries, with established economies. Maybe the US is pretty good at getting countries we've invaded back to baseline. Interesting point. Afghanistan was much different at some point earlier in 20th century, before Russia or we invaded. That was a long time ago. Maybe too long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 6 hours ago, abdcskins said: I don't know what to really make of all this. I do not think, however, that Israel reducing Gaza to rubble is the right answer, from a moral standpoint. Maybe kidnapping Israelis and beheading children isn't a right answer from a moral standpoint either. they're gon face retribution... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 37 minutes ago, ixcuincle said: Maybe kidnapping Israelis and beheading children isn't a right answer from a moral standpoint either. they're gon face retribution... Gaza isn't a terrorist organization, Hamas is... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Gaza isn't a terrorist organization, Hamas is... Then root Hamas out. isis ****s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 14 minutes ago, ixcuincle said: Then root Hamas out. isis ****s Stop acting like a 5 year old, this is an adult conversation. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 25 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Stop acting like a 5 year old, this is an adult conversation. I'm not acting like a 5 year old. Knock it off, son. I read the news every day, I watch the news, and I'm fully aware of what's going on. What Hamas did was unforgivable. They prodded the situation and set off a powder keg in the Middle East with their actions. Now I ain't stupid. Again, watch the news every day and stay informed. Israel has been very unfair to the Palestinians. Let's get that straight right off the bat. Israel came over after the Holocaust, took their land, and built settlements. That's not right. Israel is also no bastion of perfection. Israel has drawn heat in the past especially during the Yom Kippur War when Egypt and other countries tag teamed up on them and Israel fought back. The history of the Middle East is very complicated. That said, as I said before, Hamas lit a powder keg with their actions. They broke into Israel, kidnapped Israeli citizens, beheaded babies and children, all in the name of Hamas. Do you think this is fair? Do you think this is right? "Israel has been unfair to Palestinians for a long time." Yes. It doesn't justify what happened Saturday. Terror is never the answer. Biden said this repeatedly and it's true. You can talk about how the Palestinian people are unjustly kept down and I will listen. I am 40 years old and I am willing to have an adult conversation without you trying to drop insults like "Stop being a child. This is an adult conversation". Well, if you want one, you have one. Israel is bad. Palestinians are bad too. Don't try to excuse them as being good. They are being infringed upon sure, but there is a peaceful way to approach this. As I was watching the news today I was alarmed that Israel sent leaflets into the Gaza Strip telling them to evacuate. Where to? It seems like Egypt is trying to negotiate humanitarian aid through an escape passage but 1) Palestinians don't want to leave their land because it's been passed down through ancestors and they don't want to leave again and 2) they literally can't get out because of the blockade. So yes that's unfair. And I realize Israel's war is against Hamas and not the Palestinian people. There is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 @ixcuincle Good. Comments like these are beneath you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: @ixcuincle Good. Comments like these are beneath you. That's what they did, no? All the news has talked about the last few days is what happened at that kibbutz. Do you think that's okay? Palestinians are going through some **** now but can't say Hamas didn't draw a HUGE target on themselves. Women and children killed. Taken hostage. Yes I'll be frank about it because it hits personally. That is not okay. That borders on savage, inhumane behavior. Edited October 13, 2023 by ixcuincle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ixcuincle said: That's what they did, no? All the news has talked about the last few days is what happened at that kibbutz. Do you think that's okay? Palestinians are going through some **** now but can't say Hamas didn't draw a HUGE target by themselves. Women and children killed. Taken hostage. Yes I'll be frank about it because it hits personally. That is not okay. That borders on savage, inhumane behavior. No. Gaza doesn't deserve a humanitarian crisis of their water and power being cut off and war crimes against them for what Hamas does, they telling half of Gaza to move the other side of the cage while they fumigate the other side right now. I don't agree that Gaza deserves that for what Hamas does. If you do or don't, be clear about it. Edited October 13, 2023 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I see we've circled back to the part where "someone is going to have to be the first side in 80 years to turn the other cheek, and I'm right about who it should be". Conversations like these are a good reminder for why negotiations between the two sides that are actually living through it never go anywhere. 8 minutes ago, ixcuincle said: As I was watching the news today I was alarmed that Israel sent leaflets into the Gaza Strip telling them to evacuate. Where to? It seems like Egypt is trying to negotiate humanitarian aid through an escape passage but 1) Palestinians don't want to leave their land because it's been passed down through ancestors and they don't want to leave again and 2) they literally can't get out because of the blockade. So yes that's unfair. And I realize Israel's war is against Hamas and not the Palestinian people. There is a difference. Israel's leaflets say to flee from the north part of Gaza to the south side of Gaza. What do they do in the north and what happens for the people in the south when they finish doing it is something I can't guess at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 There’s no way for a million people to relocate in 24 hours under ideal conditions. Picking your way through a war zone is unlikely to make things any faster. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 9 hours ago, Destino said: Who said anything about negotiating? It’s time for unconditional surrender. When it’s clear that not only are you losing, but that you lack the ability to even fight back it’s time for leaders to end it. Even if that means falling on their swords to do it. The only decision Hamas has left to make is how many civilians die with them. I’m genuinely surprised the media hasn’t picked up on this. It’s obviously time to surrender I think the issue is they won’t surrender. That’s not really the Islamic extremist way. They’re going to burn everything down on their way to death, if they cannot win. they don’t give a **** about saving Palestinian lives … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, NickyJ said: The only sticking point in Gaza is whether Israel will eventually pull out after the damage is done. I think they will. It might take weeks or months, but the international community will eventually force an end to the slaughter. And when they do, Hamas rebuilds with a fresh wave of hatred and resentment that random civilians who had no hand in the conflict will have a pretty good reason for having. using nothing but a total lack of understanding of it all: my bet is they take the land it becomes Israel’s. Edited October 13, 2023 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, tshile said: I think the issue is they won’t surrender. That’s not really the Islamic extremist way. They’re going to burn everything down on their way to death, if they cannot win. they don’t give a **** about saving Palestinian lives … you understand how that’s a point that needs to be made though right? Not bringing it up is giving them a major pass. Especially being that much of their leadership is said not to even be in Gaza. So these guys are watching this happen from safety and happily sacrificing civilian lives. You can’t just let that pass unsaid. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) Who does it need to be said to who doesn't already know it? The people who have been living under it for years can't have gotten this far without knowing it, and they either approve of it, disapprove of it but can't/won't rise up against it, or simply don't care because what's done in their name in another city doesn't affect them (until it does, in which case they see themselves as the sole victims. And they're not wrong that they're victims). Edited October 13, 2023 by NickyJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 49 minutes ago, Destino said: There’s no way for a million people to relocate in 24 hours under ideal conditions. Picking your way through a war zone is unlikely to make things any faster. The intention is not to allow over 1 million to relocate. the intention is to say “we gave a warning” to avoid getting in trouble when they massacre everyone. 24 minutes ago, Destino said: you understand how that’s a point that needs to be made though right? Not bringing it up is giving them a major pass. Especially being that much of their leadership is said not to even be in Gaza. So these guys are watching this happen from safety and happily sacrificing civilian lives. You can’t just let that pass unsaid. Ok. In that context I get it. it seemed like you were shocked they hadn’t surrendered yet. But I see what you’re saying now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 😭 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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