2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think you can present it to Ron just the way it is.  They are hiring a new GM, that GM will choose the next HC, and whether he wants the job and the GM wants to retain him he'd have to redo that contract.

 

I doubt Ron says yes to it.  

In which case Ron says “No.” and then Josh has to fire him.  And pay him the remainder of the contract.  
 

I think if Josh went to him and said I want you to stay and work with GMX, it could be negotiated. 
 

Presented the way you did, if I were Ron (or his agent) I’d say to Josh: “You can’t hire a new GM.  I’m head of football ops.  If you want to do that, you have to fire me first.”

 

And if that comes after a 10+ win playoff season, it’s going to be a very interesting decision for Josh.  Because say what you want about Ron, firing him after a 10+ win playoff season would feel a heck of a lot like Dan firing Marty to get to Spurrier.  
 

And I don’t think Josh wants to start out firing a coach who made the playoffs.

 

It’s just going to be very interesting if they get there.  
 

But, they have to win 10 games before it’s interesting. If they don’t, there won’t be any drama. 

44 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Why does Ron need an extension? He’s under contract until 2024.

 

Yeah, coaches usually get extensions heading into the final year but not always.

 

Josh can just let him coach out his final year and then decide on an extension or not.

 

 

Of course, that probably won’t be the case because Josh will want his own Gm and the Gm and coach to be separate.

 

So, that will be the discussion come January. Maybe Ron sticks to his guns and says no. Maybe Ron says yes, he just wants to coach. How Ron answers and Josh responds, we’ll see in January unless Ron earns himself a Carolina exit again.

 

 

Bringing in his own Gm and having Gm separate from coach, is vital to any chance of success.

You never let a coach go into the final year of their contract.  It rarely, if ever, happens.  It’s bad for literally everybody: ownership, players, coaches, agents, everybody.  You need to know you’re negotiating with a regime who’s at least going to be around for 2 years. You’re going to trust a coach/GM to act in the best interest of the team if they don’t know if they are going to be part of it?  
 

And in this case, that would also mean Josh could not hire a GM. Because Ron would block that also.  
 

No, Ron gets fired or extended.  
 

Also, I’ve replied this to you about 47 times so I’m not sure how you’re just seeing it now.  

[NYSkins21]

6 hours ago, Chump Bailey said:

Damn, I'm not sure who to target in my PPR fantasy league - B Rob or Gibson.  I guess I'll go with whomever falls the furthest. I like Turner and Bates, but do hope Curtis Hodges gets in on the action. He is underrated IMO.

I’ve had the same issues as I’m sure most of us Skins/Commander fans will. Problem is both of their ADP’s are about the same. I’ve been leaning towards BRob because I believe he’ll receive more goal line work and end up with more td’s. Also, the reports indicating that BRob will be used more as a receiver this year than last.

[Chump Bailey]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

In which case Ron says “No.” and then Josh has to fire him.  And pay him the remainder of the contract.  
 

I think if Josh went to him and said I want you to stay and work with GMX, it could be negotiated. 
 

Presented the way you did, if I were Ron (or his agent) I’d say to Josh: “You can’t hire a new GM.  I’m head of football ops.  If you want to do that, you have to fire me first.”

 

And if that comes after a 10+ win playoff season, it’s going to be a very interesting decision for Josh.  Because say what you want about Ron, firing him after a 10+ win playoff season would feel a heck of a lot like Dan firing Marty to get to Spurrier.  
 

And I don’t think Josh wants to start out firing a coach who made the playoffs.

 

It’s just going to be very interesting if they get there.  
 

 

I don't expect it to happen.  But if it did, squeaking into the playoffs and losing in the first round while would be cool -- still wouldn't be a major accomplishment for Ron in my book.  

 

Gibbs made it to the playoffs in year 2.  Shanny in year 3.  Jay in year 3.  Yeah Rivera did it right away but at 7-9.   So 3 years later, sneaking into the playoffs and getting knocked out right away seems like a rite of passage for our coaches.    So Rivera doing this to me isn't some major mountain climb.  Don't get me wrong, it would be nice.   Maybe the context of it would get me more jazzed if lets say Howell kills it for example. 

 

But not so cool where I'd want Rivera running this FO.  We can do much better than Ron IMO for GM.

 

But if he won a playoff game, something not done since Gibbs, I'd suck it up and deal with the inferior operation as a reward to Ron.

 

It's to me borderline ridiculous to crave Ron Rivera to be our GM.   I get the HC part to an extent but not a great extent.  But with all the personnel guys in the league, its Ron Rivera we want?  My point is even fans who dig the idea, would get over it. 

 

Overall I don't think there would be a fan outcry if they make the playoffs and lose in round 1 if it comes out that Ron either wants to be the full Czar of this team where he runs everything or nothing.   Judging by talk radio, twitter, and here, Ron isn't the most wildly popular coach with this fan base.  

 

If I were in Josh Harris shoes, if it went down like that.  I'd absolutely hire a GM with zero hesitation.  Knowing Harris' reputation it likely would be a GM with a ton of pedigree and fans likely in turn would be jazzed if anything for the novelty of it.  Recall the buzz on Scot McCloughan?  that was argubaly the only time that had a GM with pedigree.  Aside from John Schneider but Schneider didn't have much of a rep at that time.   

 

So you get fans jazzed about the new GM.  That should happen organically.  Do you really think the fans will be pissed at that juncture that Ron isn't the GM anymore?  And heck if you want to have your cake and eat it too if you think some fans would be in Ron's corner -- then have the GM offer the job to Ron and let Ron say no or offer him another job.  Knowing Ron's rep, once he would get wind of something like this, it wouldn't surprise me if he retires.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

6 hours ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

Anybody think we should kick the tires on LT Jason Peters?

There was a time when he was an absolute elite stud. I mean, Trent-like stud or atleast close to it. I wish we had him in his prime! 

[kingdaddy]

54 minutes ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

There was a time when he was an absolute elite stud. I mean, Trent-like stud or atleast close to it. I wish we had him in his prime! 

If he's better than what we have and still wants to play then yeah, bring him in for a look over the next 3 weeks.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

12 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

If he's better than what we have and still wants to play then yeah, bring him in for a look over the next 3 weeks.

 

Totally agree........I remember seeing him with the cowgirls last season and from what I remember, he was more than serviceable. He played 10 games and had a PFF rating of 70.8

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by LetMeSeeYourWarFace21

[xxprodigyxx]

On 8/16/2023 at 9:11 AM, FootballZombie said:

The whole raw argument for Kaz bothers me.

He won't make the team and be expected to contribute at WR in a meaningful way. His job would be to provide a spark on teams.

 

 

Dax had 6 Recs last year. 6. How much are we giving up by bringing in a raw guy who can be a difference maker on teams, even if he is incapable of contributing much on the outside?

Or you can try to mask his inability at WR and have him contribute to the O as more of a runner, in a C. Sam kinda way.

 

Unless the other guy is good at other aspects of ST play, you aint giving up a whole lot by picking the raw guy here.

 

Right now, gimmie WR 1-4 plus Pringle at WR5 and Kaz at WR6

agree with your WR depth chart. dax does nothing for us to improve our chances at winning. cut dax and limit playing tinsley in the next two preseason games so we can stash him (hopefully) on the practice squad. if someone, other than kaz, gets hurt during the season, bring up tinsley. he'll likely make more of an impact than dax. if kaz gets hurt, pick up dax if he's unsigned or find someone that won't muff punts and gets 2 yards per PR...i would think that won't be so hard to find.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[jjpomeroy]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But not so cool where I'd want Rivera running this FO.  We can do much better than Ron IMO for GM.

totally love Ron, and he was an intricate part of our transition from Snyder’s “reign of terror”.  However, the Harris Group needs the freedom to totally upgrade the football operations AND business operations.

 

Furthermore, I am convinced that even if he won this upcoming season’s Super Bowl - he’s planning to retire afterwards 

[MrJL]

I think Rivera's managed to do the losing record division title twice, managed to go for that to super Bowl representative once without massively overhauling the roster and coached through a cancer scare.  That probably affects how he views a lot of thing

[Voice_of_Reason]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

1. Washington makes the playoffs

 

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

2. Sam Howell is the most-sacked quarterback in the NFL

 

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

3. Washington has a bottom-five O-line

 

 

So, I'm not going to launch into an anti-PFF rant, because I would literally NEVER do that.  

 

I will say if #2 and #3 come true, I really don't see a way for #1 to come true. And I find it a little odd a metrics based platform would come to the conclusion these three things could come true.  Now, I get it: these are bold predictions.  And so there is some degree of "drama" in them, and I get that.  But the three they picked seem to be incongruent.  

 

Also, if #2 does come true, then EB, Howell and the OL are all to blame.  I get that you can't work around a horrendous OL entirely, but you can find ways to minimize it's impact.  

 

I don't expect #2 to occur even if #3 is true.  Because I think there are 3 things which will prevent it:

 

1.  Reid's WCO variant is as close to the original Walsh version as any in getting the ball out quickly and in space on a vast majority of pass plays. I expect EB to rely on these offensive concepts a whole lot.  And even with a terrible OL, getting a sack, especially from the outside, if the ball is out in 2.3 seconds is very difficult.  Now, if the interior collapses, that's different.  You CAN disturb a quick passing game with immediate inside pressure. But I don't expect a train wreck there.  Cosmi should be at least "ok" and Gates/LG (whoever it is) should be able to double team the other DT.    

 

2. Howell is mobile and slippery.  If things start to break down, I like his ability to escape the pocket to get out of trouble.  Is that ideal?  No.  But I do think it will limit sacks, as long as Howell escapes and either gets rid of the ball or gets some positive yardage.

 

3. I expect, with the variety of skill position players we have, and the quick game concepts in the offense, EB will find a way to stay out of known passing situations as much as possible  Again, this is a cornerstone of the WCO.  A lot of sacks come in known passing situations. 

 

Am I putting a ton of faith in EB and Howell?  Yes. Is that smart?  I don't know.  Maybe I'm going all-in on a pair of 2's. But my gut tells me EB is going to call a game similar to the way Reid calls them, and I think Howell can make quick decisions and throw balls accurately.  So that's the bet I'm placing.  

 

I'm not going to argue #3.  We'll see.  I'm dubious the line will be a bottom 5 unit this year when all is said and done, especially if EB and Howell execute the offense well, because it will protect the line and boost the metrics.  But I'm exhausted on the topic.  Luckily, they're going to play 17 games and we'll find out how good/bad they are.

 

My point is more that if #2 and #3 come true, I don't think #1 can.  And if #1 is true, I don't think #2 can be true.  #3 still could be, and they would have figured out a way to work around it.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, jjpomeroy said:

totally love Ron, and he was an intricate part of our transition from Snyder’s “reign of terror”.  However, the Harris Group needs the freedom to totally upgrade the football operations AND business operations.

 

Furthermore, I am convinced that even if he won this upcoming season’s Super Bowl - he’s planning to retire afterwards 

 

Feel the same.

 

It's a weird vibe for me, I've wanted some coaches here in the past to go, the major one was Zorn.  I was out on him early.  I was down on Jay early, too but I didn't want him fired after one season, and then I ended up feeling bad for him and liked him as a dude, even though my perception of him after season 1 really didn't change much.

 

With Shanny I dug him for three years but heading to year 4 I soured on him for similar reasons that i've soured on Rivera.  He had personnel control and I don't think he had it cooking to take the team to the next stage.  If he reneged personnel control, I probably would have had patience for more.

 

With Ron, I think the dude was perfect for the Dan era.  There is not a coach during Dan's era that I respect more than him in regard to what he personally and professional endured and he perservered through it -- Rocky like.  I have total respect for Ron.

 

But now with a new era and a new owner, we can shoot higher.    If you ask any NFL pundit, personnel guy off the record or for that matter fan from another team, would they consider Ron Rivera one of the top GMs in the league -- the thought wouldn't even be entertained, it would be laughter.  It's a comical point to debate IMO. 

 

Now Ron put himself in that situation where he's the football Czar of this team -- Bill Belichick.  And I supported the idea in the context of Dan because otherwise Dan becomes the defacto GM.    But Dan gone is a game changer.  And I've always pushed for a GM centric model.  I just don't think a HC has time to master both fronts and also both jobs at times contradict each other. 

 

Lets take the idea of trading picks this draft for next years draft -- which is something that we never do.  Why would Ron do it this year for example when he might not be here next year or previously why do it when he has an owner who is all about win now.  the last dude and I believe the only dude to ever do it was Scot McCloughan.  And again Scot wasn't the HC so he had a bit more freedom to think about the future.

 

I'll give Ron some credit that he's not into sacrificing the future sans the dumb Wentz trade.  But he's also not a very future oriented driven GM either.  He plays it in the middle.  And i think its no coincidence that their record in turn is also somewhere in the middle. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

Gonna be a good fan day...

 

 

From yesterday after practice

 

 

 

 

[HigSkin]

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Plantar fasciitis is really painful. I hope they can get it somewhat under control but it lingers and hurts like hell.  
 

And I’d imagine it would be tough to “shoot up” because numbing your foot would seem to make it hard to, well, stand, walk and run.  3 things which are important to play football.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[UK Skins]

A few of you have mentioned firing Ron and having to pay off his contract as if that's a bad thing. If he would only have one year left on it at that point how expensive can that be?

[Koolblue13]

I'm betting that Ron retires (because he's told to and he should) and keeps working out and wandering the halls like Tom Coughlin did to the Giants.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[MartinC]

28 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

A few of you have mentioned firing Ron and having to pay off his contract as if that's a bad thing. If he would only have one year left on it at that point how expensive can that be?

About $8.5M for Ron. But it’s not just him, you are clearing house from GM down plus most of the coaching staff. 
 

For context though the Commanders had earnings before taxes and amortization etc of over $130M in the last numbers I’ve seen from 2021. So that’s after all costs including player costs.
 

They can afford to pay everyone off if they have to. It is what it is.

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm betting that Ron retires (because he's told to and he should) and keeps working out and wandering the halls like Tom Coughlin did to the Giants.

Would you walk away from $8.5M?

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Would you walk away from $8.5M?

Of course not, but my fortune is in 30 year old trucks that live in the Caribbean and I have $109 in the bank.

 

The part of my post that said "told to", was meant to infer he was told to, instead of being fired like he should be.

 

He's not going to be the GM next year. This Oline will protect his job as well as it protects poor Sam Howell and Brissett (who will absolutely start at some point, because of injury).

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[MartinC]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Of course not, but my fortune is in 30 year old trucks that live in the Caribbean and I have $109 in the bank.

 

The part of my post that said "told to", was meant to infer he was told to, instead of being fired like he should be.

 

He's not going to be the GM next year. This Oline will protect his job as well as it protects poor Sam Howell and Brissett (who will absolutely start at some point, because of injury).

Told to retire would mean given the option of a mutual cancellation as a ‘retirement’ rather than being fired. In that situation he’d get his last year paid up. 
 

He’s not going without having his last year paid out one way or another. 
 

Now - tell me more about these trucks! 🙂

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

It’s good to hear that our starting running back can, you know, run.

[Skinsinparadise]