2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Koolblue13]

WE HAVE A FULLBACK!!!

 

I love that. I hope he makes the team and is used a lot. 

 

Bates and Armah leading CRod on a power toss. That's fun football. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I’m buying Forbes, Quan, Stromberg, Rodriguez, Andre Jones. 
 

Solid draft. I’ll take any bets you want that this draft produces at least three starters.
 

Not as good as last year which will show to be the class that turned around this franchise and pulled us out of the toilet. 

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

WE HAVE A FULLBACK!!!

 

I love that. I hope he makes the team and is used a lot. 

 

Bates and Armah leading CRod on a power toss. That's fun football. 

Armah ain’t making the 53. Prepare for more disappointment. 😆

 

But I agree. I’d like to see some power sweeps. 

[mhd24]

13 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Didn't all of the teams Mueller cited as building faster luck into a good-great QB situation?

 

I fully get and mostly echo what you're talking about with lack of Day 1 contributors from this draft. In fairness 2022 draft also had that, but is going to have much more positive contribution in their 2nd season. So jury isn't out, but besides that little point you're right.

 

They want Quan to learn every secondary position and don't seem to have a plan or desire to have him play as a rookie. Same with Stromberg who is supposedly having a good camp (just needs to be a little bit stronger). Daniels was a long term bet on raw movement skills. They traded up in the 5th for an Edge to not play as a rookie but to get more playing time after one of Young or Sweat leave.

 

All of these guys were drafted with the immediate plan of stashing and developing for a year. Sure the long term talent pipeline is helped by this, but in a supposed big year to impress the new owners...why?

 

 

 

I guess I trust this staff to develop the secondary.  Forrest basically sat his rookie year and looked how well he played last year.  Butler basically sat last year and he's really shined this off-season and that first game.  If they want to develop Quan similarly, I don't have a problem with it.  He probably replaces Fuller after this season anyways.

7 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I’m buying Forbes, Quan, Stromberg, Rodriguez, Andre Jones. 
 

Solid draft. I’ll take any bets you want that this draft produces at least three starters.
 

Not as good as last year which will show to be the class that turned around this franchise and pulled us out of the toilet. 

Armah ain’t making the 53. Prepare for more disappointment. 😆

 

But I agree. I’d like to see some power sweeps. 

The beat guys have been saying Armah very well could make it.  Hodges hasn't had a great camp and Armah can play TE & FB.  

[Koolblue13]

11 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

 

Armah ain’t making the 53. Prepare for more disappointment. 😆

 

But I agree. I’d like to see some power sweeps. 

Can't I be excited about our TE4 for a minute?

 

Today we have a FB and I'm happy about it.

[DiscoBob]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Today we have a FB and I'm happy about it.

 

Let me know when we finally find a personal punt protector, that's something to get excited about.  That positions been a black hole since we lost Archeuleta...

Edited August 17, 2023 by DiscoBob

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Can't I be excited about our TE4 for a minute?

 

Today we have a FB and I'm happy about it.

I’d like for him to make it. I think Bates is gonna be a fan favorite here when all is said and done. I love his game. 

[Koolblue13]

Just now, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I’d like for him to make it. I think Bates is gonna be a fan favorite here when all is said and done. I love his game. 

I'm definitely buying a Bates Redwolves jersey next year.

[KDawg]

22 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I’m buying Forbes, Quan, Stromberg, Rodriguez, Andre Jones. 
 

Solid draft. I’ll take any bets you want that this draft produces at least three starters.
 

 

 

The issue most of us have isn't that it was a bad draft, it's that the strategy lacked cohesion.

 

It is a must-win year, so while that doesn't necessarily mean you want to sacrifice the future for a single season, you would expect to see more moves to impact this season.

 

Quan, Stromberg, Jones, Henry, Daniels are cases of guys who long term are probably going to more than work out for us.

 

The general thought here is that there were guys available that could help us now AND in the future.

 

There seems to be some misconception here that a lot of posters dislike the players in the class and that is simply not true. The players themselves range from great long term value to questionable selection, but the overall class has decent players for sure.

 

I just wish our selections were more impactful given the context of the situation. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Ironically, eight months ago he was the biggest Rivera hater on the board.

 

We are all allowed to change our minds, obviously, but this swing is one of the biggest swings I've ever seen.

 

I wasn't a hater.  I criticized him when he made big mistakes.  I still will when I believe he actually makes them.  The drastic swing is in the attitude of all the people who used to reflexively defend him against my criticism.  Not just that, but they go far beyond the level of my criticism.  I didn't fly off the handle about benign media comments and missed opportunities with UDFAs and back up linemen.

 

I criticized him for mishandling his QB prospect.  For turning over his offense to an awful coach who was a nepotism hire and letting a good one walk.  For letting his best players walk or trading them for 10 cents on the dollar because he did a lousy job trying to sell them on what he was doing here.  You know what changed?  Ron stopped doing that stuff.  He chose a QB prospect and is developing him properly.  He fired that bum coach and hired one I think is great.  He kept Allen, Terry, and Daron here.  Why would I criticize him now?  I'm not a Rivera hater.  I like the work he's done the past two years, I like what he's built here, and I want to see him keep doing it.  What I don't want to see is a new owner come in and meddle with everything and hit the reset button on this build when we are finally close to competitiveness.  Oh by the way, anyone who likes Sam Howell and wants him to succeed here should stop lying to themselves about his chances of surviving a regime change.  He's one of the first guys who will get flushed if it happens, and what a ****ing waste that would be.

 

 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I wasn't a hater.  I criticized him when he made big mistakes.  I still will when I believe he actually makes them.  The drastic swing is in the attitude of all the people who used to reflexively defend him against my criticism.  Not just that, but they go far beyond the level of my criticism.  I didn't fly off the handle about benign media comments and missed opportunities with UDFAs and back up linemen.

 

I criticized him for mishandling his QB prospect.  For turning over his offense to an awful coach who was a nepotism hire and letting a good one walk.  For letting his best players walk or trading them for 10 cents on the dollar because he did a lousy job trying to sell them on what he was doing here.  You know what changed?  Ron stopped doing that stuff.  He chose a QB prospect and is developing him properly.  He fired that bum coach and hired one I think is great.  He kept Allen, Terry, and Daron here.  Why would I criticize him now?  I'm not a Rivera hater.  I like the work he's done the past two years, I like what he's built here, and I want to see him keep doing it.  What I don't want to see is a new owner come in and meddle with everything and hit the reset button on this build when we are finally close to competitiveness.  Oh by the way, anyone who likes Sam Howell and wants him to succeed here should stop lying to themselves about his chances of surviving a regime change.  He's one of the first guys who will get flushed if it happens, and what a ****ing waste that would be.

 

 

I don't think he will survive a regime change unless he's lights out. I have come to grips with that.

[Koolblue13]

Just now, KDawg said:

I don't think he will survive a regime change unless he's lights out. I have come to grips with that.

JDR has been the asst HC since Ron was hired and now EB is the asst HC and Rons hands off both.

 

Dudes retired and just hanging out. He'll announce it formally after the season and then who knows what happens next.

 

But regardless of the seasons outcome, RonMart is done.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The issue most of us have isn't that it was a bad draft, it's that the strategy lacked cohesion.

I totally get it and I’m in the same boat. Henry/Daniels were head scratchers for me. I’m hoping maybe they found a late round gem in AJones to offset some of that. 
 

I think the lack of cohesion argument has merit and Rivera should be held to account for that. It’s not how I would’ve had my draft board set up, but I’m just a writer. 😆

[method man]

22 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The issue most of us have isn't that it was a bad draft, it's that the strategy lacked cohesion.

 

It is a must-win year, so while that doesn't necessarily mean you want to sacrifice the future for a single season, you would expect to see more moves to impact this season.

 

Quan, Stromberg, Jones, Henry, Daniels are cases of guys who long term are probably going to more than work out for us.

 

The general thought here is that there were guys available that could help us now AND in the future.

 

There seems to be some misconception here that a lot of posters dislike the players in the class and that is simply not true. The players themselves range from great long term value to questionable selection, but the overall class has decent players for sure.

 

I just wish our selections were more impactful given the context of the situation. 

 

Agreed. I am of the belief that when you draft, you want your draft picks to have a strong line of sight to making the roster as well. This is why I never understood drafting both Henry and Jones given the depth we already have at the position. I get that all those guys are FAs after next year; however, you can just draft another reserve EDGE next year if depth is an issue. Given the lack of depth at off ball LB, I was disappointed they didn't take Pace or Soelle. Both those guys would have had a very good chance of making the roster and upgrading the depth.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

But the core of the team is the same absent what should be better QB play, probably a better OC/play caller.  Eve if you say the OL is going to be identical to last year (I think it's going to be a little better), and the defense is the same (I think specifically the secondary is going to be better) I think those 2 things alone could deserve a little bump in record.

 

It's all an irrelevant exercise.  As I said, I'm not as down on the team as some.  But I'm no where near really bullish on them.  Which is what you KEEP trying to twist my position to be, and I'm not entirely sure why.  But it's not what I have posted, or what my position is.  And never has been.  

 

I am not trying to twist anything I am trying to narrow you down.

 

You went 10-7 in the prediction thread.  Then in another post afterwards went 9-8 and then when I asked you about it, you explained that you didn't quite mean 9-8. 

 

Then your stuff on the O line covers any scenario.  Maybe they are good, maybe they are bad.  No one knows until it unfolds.  Sure, we all get that no sceanrio is known until it unfolds.

 

Few here disagree that they aren't a better team than last year.  But most do think the schedule matters.  You say it doesn't.  But I gather you are covered on that topic too so if they don't have a good season, you can say hey the Bills actually were a better team in the end than the Texans.  But at the time of your prediction, you didn't know that would be the case because you didn't know who would be healthy or not.

 

Then you aren't high on this team but not extreme on it.    So I throw the 10-7 back at you.    And now you go that's like 9-7, then in another statement on the same post, you say its barely over 500.

 

You defend Ron in some posts and in others you say are basically done with Ron.  

 

I am not the only one who has pointed out here that you got all bases covered no matter what happens in the season to end up right.  That's cool.  but what am trying to do is make that a bit more difficult for you to do.    .   And it sticks out a bit for me on this thread because whether I agree with some or not on the topic, its easy for me to see where they stand.

 

Not a big deal one way or another.  But the reason why I point it out with you is on some posts you come like you are taking the high ground.   But to me it comes off that you got every position covered or maybe you aren't sure?

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think it's kinda funny that we were so excited about this season, until day three of the draft. It's so not rational and I don't care.

Hey speak for yourself!! (for me it was day two of the draft)

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I don't think he will survive a regime change unless he's lights out. I have come to grips with that.

 

Are you OK with us likely wasting him then?

 

I'm not naive, I know that power has shifted completely away from Rivera and that Josh Harris is looking for any pretext to fire him.  I understand that it was probably Harris who got caught courting Sean Payton before he even bought the ****ing team.  But apparently most people aren't recognizing that none of that is a good thing.  It's writing on the wall that we probably just went from one incompetent meddler to another, and I'm absolutely not going to defend that kind of meddling or lie to myself about it being proper and justified.  I'm also not going to believe that Josh Harris has anywhere near as good of an idea of how to build a culture and a football team as well as Ron Rivera.  I believe in my own takes and I believe this is a good team, that we finally have a good culture, and that we are probably only one more off-season of building away from being in contention.

[DWinzit]

28 minutes ago, Conn said:

Hey speak for yourself!! (for me it was day two of the draft)

It's hard to argue with this although I feel the day 2 picks weren't bad.

Edited August 17, 2023 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Didn't all of the teams Mueller cited as building faster luck into a good-great QB situation?

 

I fully get and mostly echo what you're talking about with lack of Day 1 contributors from this draft. In fairness 2022 draft also had that, but is going to have much more positive contribution in their 2nd season. So jury isn't out, but besides that little point you're right.

 

They want Quan to learn every secondary position and don't seem to have a plan or desire to have him play as a rookie. Same with Stromberg who is supposedly having a good camp (just needs to be a little bit stronger). Daniels was a long term bet on raw movement skills. They traded up in the 5th for an Edge to not play as a rookie but to get more playing time after one of Young or Sweat leave.

 

All of these guys were drafted with the immediate plan of stashing and developing for a year. Sure the long term talent pipeline is helped by this, but in a supposed big year to impress the new owners...why?

 

 

 

He didn't cite specific teams.  He said in today's NFL, more trades happen, releases, more opportunity to build a roster faster.  Some say the offensive skill players in particular play better faster in the NFL than the old days among other reasons.

 

I know over the years, the Giants can be a button with you.  I remember that because they are button with me too but for different reasons.

 

Some like to cite the job Daboll-Schoen did taking over the Giants.  And while Rivera cited QB as the reason for the climb of the other NFC East teams so he believes I gather Jones is a really good one, not everyone is that impressed with Daniel Jones. 

 

And look its not as if Ron wasn't allowed to draft Jalen Hurts in that draft.  I don't get that vibe in retrospect.  I used to think otherwise because Dan clearly wanted to run with Haskins.  But according to Keim among others they loved Burrow and likely would have taken him if he fell.  Ron admitted in an interview he didn't think highly of Herbert and Tua and justfied why.  I presume he wasn't taken by Hurts either.  He was available when their 2nd round pick came up. 

 

Ron wasn't exactly at the mercy of circumstance completely when it comes to finding a QB.  He had some doing in it.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

Monday night is this organization's coming out party....we will come out as fans with a new excitement for this team and the players will feel it. We will beat the Ravens with a good mix of running, passing and solid defense. The tone will be set for the entire season....

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Are you OK with us likely wasting him then?

 

I'm not naive, I know that power has shifted completely away from Rivera and that Josh Harris is looking for any pretext to fire him.  I understand that it was probably Harris who got caught courting Sean Payton before he even bought the ****ing team.  But apparently most people aren't recognizing that none of that is a good thing.  It's writing on the wall that we probably just went from one incompetent meddler to another, and I'm absolutely not going to defend that kind of meddling or lie to myself about it being proper and justified.  I'm also not going to believe that Josh Harris has anywhere near as good of an idea of how to build a culture and a football team as well as Ron Rivera.  I believe in my own takes and I believe this is a good team, that we finally have a good culture, and that we are probably only one more off-season of building away from being in contention.

 

Are we wasting him if he comes out and stinks? If he craps the bed and plays awful, why would we keep him as QB1? It doesn't make any sense, regardless of regime.

 

I don't think that happens, but I also don't have a crystal ball. 

 

If he's good, though, I assume he'd be around. QB1? Depends on how good. But a new regime is going to see a QB who was moderately successful on a rookie deal and keep him.

 

I don't think this is all that complicated.

 

I'm not going to turn on Harris for things we have zero idea about. Why wouldn't a new owner go shopping for a head coach? Or at least do their due diligence. A guy who is going for a HC position usually goes shopping before hand, too. It's just the lay of the land.

 

Ultimately, Payton isn't here (which I am more than okay with, that guy has a real big mouth). Let's take it day to day and not try to demonize the new guy for being the old guy yet.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think it's kinda funny that we were so excited about this season, until day three of the draft. It's so not rational and I don't care.

 

the first two days I was a bit shocked.  I was talking about maybe going O line in both the first and 2nd and getting nothing was unexpected.

 

But as you know we do our short list of top 20 players in the draft we love and they took 2 of them from my list -- Quan Martin, Stromberg.  So I had mixed emotions.

 

But then the next day unfolded and good players in the secondary could be had but we went secondary early.  The O line depth sucked at that point.  My favorite pass rushers were gone.  I loved this TE draft and they took none, while seeing a team in our conference take 2.  The permutations of how the draft unfolded for this team, I didn't like, in the context of this season.  You said the same, as did @KDawg and i believe @DWinzit at the time.

 

As you know, it wasn't about disliking Ron.  All of us if anything were on the record of liking Ron.  But we felt yuck in the context of this coming season especially if the idea is to groom Howell.

 

I said last year as did you, be patient with Ron in year 3, he will go for it in year 4.  And that's after Ron made it a point himself that he should be judged in year 3.  He clearly was that level confident that he would be vindicated.

 

And we got some here saying Ron is building lets say what he's got in year 5?  

 

Look if Ron doesn't have a sense of urgency or knowhow in building a roster with his job on the line in year 4, why do we think lets say what he would have cooking for us in another off season?

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

28 minutes ago, Conn said:

Hey speak for yourself!! (for me it was day two of the draft)

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

the first two days I was a bit shocked.  I was talking about maybe going O line in both the first and 2nd and getting nothing was unexpected.

I think we all agree that the Forbes pick was the right pick, hindsight aside, but the second round was definitely a head scratcher. 

 

We've had great luck with day 3 secondary picks and the previous years we've passed over some great day two safeties, so why now, with what is already a strength, go for a project DB when Oline was such a need and the players were there.

 

We basically sat out on the Oline in this draft that could help us this year, then threw good picks at what was left, while plenty of secondary talent was there. 

 

Was it better to grab Forbes and not Ringo and Ricks? Who knows. 

 

Day three it just felt like the wheels fell off and nobody was in charge. Of course the guy calling the wrong numbers knew what he was doing.

13 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Are we wasting him if he comes out and stinks? If he craps the bed and plays awful, why would we keep him as QB1? It doesn't make any sense, regardless of regime.

 

I don't think that happens, but I also don't have a crystal ball. 

Ron came in being told he had to play Haskins. He tried.

 

Look at your boy with the Bears. They draft Fields high, he looks terrible, they fire the HC who is a QB guru and bring in a defensive minded HC and word is that Fields looks good.

 

A young QB can play bad in a HCs last year and not be a career ender when the new regime comes in.

 

I think Sam has enough to build on and I'd imagine whoever our new HC is will feel the same, which doesn't negate him still trying to find his QB of the future.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

I think we all agree that the Forbes pick was the right pick, hindsight aside, but the second round was definitely a head scratcher. 

 

We've had great luck with day 3 secondary picks and the previous years we've passed over some great day two safeties, so why now, with what is already a strength, go for a project DB when Oline was such a need and the players were there.

 

We basically sat out on the Oline in this draft that could help us this year, then threw good picks at what was left, while plenty of secondary talent was there. 

 

Was it better to grab Forbes and not Ringo and Ricks? Who knows. 

 

Day three it just felt like the wheels fell off and nobody was in charge. Of course the guy calling the wrong numbers knew what he was doing.

 

The off season is still young but at the moment the draft is aging a bit worse for me in the context of 2023.  I see no indication that anyone outside of Forbes is starting.  And no major backup either aside from Quan as a rotational player similar to Percy last season.

 

It comes off to me arrogrant from Ron like he's fine tuning a SB roster or as Mueller said acting like he has all the job security in the world.  Ala what @Conn said things that didn't bother me before about Ron bother me now.   

 

The judge me for season 3 didn't bother me one whit at the time that preseason but it bothers me a lot now

 

The hey here's why I didn't take Herbert bothered me a little at the time but it bothers me a lot now. 

 

The excuse for other teams making climbs in this division quickly bit not them -- he cited QB.  Didn't bother me at the time but bothers me a lot now.

 

The I didn't know we could be eiliminated line -- now bothers me, it didn't bother me then.

 

Why does it bother me now?  We have a much better owner.  And yes I think we can already say that based on how he's treated everything so far since he's taken over and what he's done elsewhere.   And if you add all of it up -- especially adding in Ron's praising of Dan not that long ago citing he at a minimum changed and he doesn't get why he is given a hard time and in another interview he said he gave him everything he wanted -- it all comes off to me that Ron's alarming number of lack of winning seasons in his long coaching career might have something to do with his mindset.  

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

36 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He didn't cite specific teams.  He said in today's NFL, more trades happen, releases, more opportunity to build a roster faster.  Some say the offensive skill players in particular play better faster in the NFL than the old days among other reasons.

 

I know over the years, the Giants can be a button with you.  I remember that because they are button with me too but for different reasons.

 

Some like to cite the job Daboll-Schoen did taking over the Giants.  And while Rivera cited QB as the reason for the climb of the other NFC East teams so he believes I gather Jones is a really good one, not everyone is that impressed with Daniel Jones. 

 

And look its not as if Ron wasn't allowed to draft Jalen Hurts in that draft.  I don't get that vibe in retrospect.  I used to think otherwise because Dan clearly wanted to run with Haskins.  But according to Keim among others they loved Burrow and likely would have taken him if he fell.  Ron admitted in an interview he didn't think highly of Herbert and Tua and justfied why.  I presume he wasn't taken by Hurts either.  He was available when their 2nd round pick came up. 

 

Ron wasn't exactly at the mercy of circumstance completely when it comes to finding a QB.  He had some doing in it.

 

 

I don't think we had a 2nd round pick that year.  We lost it in the Sweat trade the year before.  Our next pick after Young was Gibson in the 3rd.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

I don't think we had a 2nd round pick that year.  We lost it in the Sweat trade the year before.  Our next pick after Young was Gibson in the 3rd.

 

OK good point they'd have had to trade up from the early 3rd.  But if they had some conviction for Hurts I'd gather they'd have made a move.  I am not blaming him for anything specific at QB but my point is he had opportunties on that too.  It was clear based on an interview that they dvided deep into the QBs in that class.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise