2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I have a hard time seeing Curl getting a big contract with all the DB room we now have. Too much money on the D especially if they do extend Sweat.

 

 

Me too but that wasn't Keim saying that's what he'd do, he was referencing what he heard they want to do.

 

But yeah if he wants big money they might not get an agreement. Curl's dad on instagram was pushing for a monster contract.  I doubt he gets a monster contract because while he's a very good player he doesn't have the money turnover plays. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yeah Hailey in particular hasn't been much of a Rivera guy for years now.

He also had hearts in his eyes over [REDACTED] proving his football knowledge is virtually non existent. 
 

He’s a somewhat entertaining young reporter who doesn’t have a clue what he’s looking at.  
 

That said, he might not be wrong on Ron, but he has as much credibility to his opinion as any random fan. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

5 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’d add to this that they were very obviously concerned with the drop off in center play after injuries the past two(?) years.  They may not plan on him playing, or expect him to earn the starting role, but they certainly seem to understand the reality of the situation.  They also value C over G as Keim has said repeatedly (and alluded to the fact they are far from the only team that feels this way).

With that all said, I get those thinking they could have landed a starter, or at least someone that could compete for a starting gig in the 3rd.  Probably could have landed a 3rd string center in the 4th/5th or later.

 

I really wish they’d have managed to draft a guard - ideally to up the competition level, but at the least to bolster the depth there (especially given Cosmi and Charles’ health history).  Of course, if Daniels works out in terms of succession planning for Leno or Lucas, or he transitions to guard and has success (either earning a starting gig or improving depth) it could be well regarded with hindsight.

 

Right now though, those two picks are looking pretty questionable.

 

 

I, like most on here, am not big on our oline talent.  The competition at LG and depth for oft-injured Cosmi/Charles is problematic as well of course.

If someone steps up at guard for that 4th spot, I’d at least feel more comfortable about that facet.  I’m presuming they give the current guys a shot and then add a vet in camp if they feel it’s needed.  Hopefully that works out.  I’m pretty comfortable with the depth at tackle and center, even if I wish we had a higher level of talent there.

 

Sidenote - essentially avoiding the run game to this point probably muddies the evaluation process a bit (resulting in a bit of a holding pattern at guard in particular), but I also get it as 1) they need to maximize reps for Howell et al, 2) it’s a WC offense - lots of short pass plays replacing some of the ground game, and 3) they possibly didn’t want to lean into the contact stuff after losing days of OTAs this year.

 

 

 

I remember reading a piece maybe around 2010 when Will Montgomery was our Center about how Vegas lines move more for Center injuries than you'd expect. I think the concept was a relative uncertainty in how useful a top tier center was over a solid center. The piece thought the drop from great to decent wasn't as hurtful as you think, but the drop from decent to bad was instead catastrophic and usually a season killer.

 

So essential to have quality depth at Center, but diminishing returns the better the starter is.

 

This was back in 2010-ish, so I'm curious if the stats and logic still hold up. Jason Kelce would refute that a bit. Yet maybe Alex Mack reinforces it? I don't know.

[spjunkies]

🙈

 

 

 

[Darth Tater]

I thought it was pretty obvious in late March that TE was not seen as a top priority and since then, it just keeps getting confirmed.  Cole Turner had more catches as a rookie than Kelce had as a rookie. The guys who would know best that Logan Thomas was good to go kept saying they thought Logan Thomas was good to go. Especially with our oline issues, Bates is critical.  At the time, Rogers was healthy.  We also know that they are impressed by Curtis Hodges.  By THEY, I'm really saying Eric Bienemy is the one (or I'd have to believe that EB is a mistake).

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

I thought it was pretty obvious in late March that TE was not seen as a top priority and since then, it just keeps getting confirmed.  Cole Turner had more catches as a rookie than Kelce had as a rookie. The guys who would know best that Logan Thomas was good to go kept saying they thought Logan Thomas was good to go. Especially with our oline issues, Bates is critical.  At the time, Rogers was healthy.  We also know that they are impressed by Curtis Hodges.  By THEY, I'm really saying Eric Bienemy is the one (or I'd have to believe that EB is a mistake).

 

You are going to jinx it.  . Yeah we knew that they liked the TEs as is. But there was concern about the depth considering ALL of these starting TEs struggled to stay healthy.  One guy down.  And we got the full camp to go. 

 

Bieiniemy relying on 4 TEs on some sets while is interesting also doesn't reassure me about the depth.  It means if they just lose one more guy -- the next guy is coming off the street.  So I think a bit early for them to do a victory lap for to go we told you so, we didn't need to take a TE from arguably the most TE rich draft in eons.

 

But overall, I don't think them skipping TE in the draft is a death blow type of mistake. It's likely OK.  I think the TE spot could work out.  Cole Turner in particular if he stays healthy IMO could be really good -- he's one of my favorite players from that 2022 draft.

 

13 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He also had hearts in his eyes over [REDACTED] proving his football knowledge is virtually non existent. 
 

He’s a somewhat entertaining young reporter who doesn’t have a clue what he’s looking at.  
 

That said, he might not be wrong on Ron, but he has as much credibility to his opinion as any random fan. 

 

I was watching the game against GB yesterday morning. The NFL Network reran that game. Just watched the first half.  I know the 2nd half he came on and they won.  But it reinforced to me how awful REDACTED was.   Poor accuracy and he was lucky he wasn't picked off more.  It also brought home how bad the O line was, too.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, spjunkies said:

🙈

 

 

 

 

I posted on this in the FO thread.  Crazy run.  The worst next to us was Jax and they won 11 in 2006 so 16 years better than us.  Wild.

 

Under Dan we also only had consecutive winning seasons once.  Wild, too.  And that run was a meager run of 9-7, 8-7-1. 

 

I think they'd have a shot to break that streak this season if Ron had any sense of urgency to break it but alas I think its a wild dream to break that streak this year. 

 

I like our chances in 2024 though. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, DWinzit said:

 

 

Damn does this make me feel more like we should have drafted a TE

 

Me, too.  But I think they have a shot to pull it off at TE.  I'd say 60% chance it works out.  They need to stay healthy.

 

As to the O line I'd bet 15% chance or so it works outs. 

 

They are lucky that the first two games are perfect for them.  Arizona and Denver aren't good.  And neither team has much of a pass rush so I think their O line holds up early.  

 

But after that, I am concerned.  They got to win IMO those first two games.

[spjunkies]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I posted on this in the FO thread.  Crazy run.  The worst next to us was Jax and they won 11 in 2006 so 16 years better than us.  Wild.

 

Under Dan we also only had consecutive winning seasons once.  Wild, too.  And that run was a meager run of 9-7, 8-7-1. 

 

I think they'd have a shot to break that streak this season if Ron had any sense of urgency to break it but alas I think its a wild dream to break that streak this year. 

 

I like our chances in 2024 though. 

 

Yeah, noticed shortly after I made this post. Figured I'd leave it for those who tend to skip threads.

 

I can't see us breaking it this year or even next after the strip down of the franchise. Things should turn interesting on the field starting in 25 after a competent front office has been established (hopefully).

 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

 

Yeah, noticed shortly after I made this post. Figured I'd leave it for those who tend to skip threads.

 

I can't see us breaking it this year or even next after the strip down of the franchise. Things should turn interesting on the field starting in 25 after a competent front office has been established (hopefully).

 

 

that's cool.  I got no problem with it being posted on multiple threads.  I was just saying I made my comments on it elsewhere.

 

If the season goes the way I think it does, Harris I think is going to have a puzzle to solve.

 

Not so sure it requires a tear down because there are a lot of strong units on the team.   But I think they might need to move one of the D lineman for cap purposes.

 

O line will likely need an overhaul.  QB is the big wildcard.  If Howell doesn't work out, I'd guess Harris is all in on a QB rich draft that at least right now in theory is one of the best one we've had in awhile.  I'd expect an aggressive move on that front.

 

Part of the reason why I'd think Harris would push this FO to be sellers before the trading deadline if they get off to a bad start and if Howell doesn't look like the guy is the need to build draft capital to trade up if needed in the 2024 draft.

 

The one similarity from football to basketball is that while one player in theory means a lot more to basketball than football -- the exception to that is QB.  I'd think all hands on deck to get that QB.

 

Personally, I lean on the optimistic side about Howell.  But I also agree with the PFF guys that you can tell early on if a QB has it or not.  Yes there are exceptions to everything.  But yeah even if lets say Howell's stats aren't hot, you should be able to judge to some extent via the ups and downs that the dude has a good shot or not after a full season. 

 

So lets say they are 3-6 before the deadline.  I think for example they might have to trade for example an edge anyway regardless of whether they need to fish for a QB in the 2024 draft. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Me, too.  But I think they have a shot to pull it off at TE.  I'd say 60% chance it works out.  They need to stay healthy.

 

As to the O line I'd bet 15% chance or so it works outs. 

 

They are lucky that the first two games are perfect for them.  Arizona and Denver aren't good.  And neither team has much of a pass rush so I think their O line holds up early.  

 

But after that, I am concerned.  They got to win IMO those first two games.

Yes sir! It there is a plan to incorporate 3 and 4 TE sets we are not in a great place in my eyes. We must rely on all 4 staying very healthy through the long season, that alone is a big ask for any TE group, no less ones with injury history. Hodges belongs on the PS not on the active roster right now. 

 

There are a lo of OL that should be able to get mixed around and manage with Howells moving ability if some health issues arise. We will all be staring at both G positions and RT as the year progresses.

[philibusters]

16 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Yes sir! It there is a plan to incorporate 3 and 4 TE sets we are not in a great place in my eyes. We must rely on all 4 staying very healthy through the long season, that alone is a big ask for any TE group, no less ones with injury history. Hodges belongs on the PS not on the active roster right now. 

 

There are a lo of OL that should be able to get mixed around and manage with Howells moving ability if some health issues arise. We will all be staring at both G positions and RT as the year progresses.

 

I think removing 3 and 4 TE sets from the game plan is probably relatively easy.  Yes its nice to have that in your bag for redzone and short yardage, but you can run 22 personnel with one receiver or 12 personnel with 2 receiver a still have a lot of options.  The one thing I think you always need is at least two decent healthy TE's because a lot of those formations are within your bread and butter stuff.

 

I am much more worried about the O-Line because I feel like game-planning around a bad O-Line is much tougher than say only having two healthy TE's that you feel comfortable with.   Right now we still have 4 TE's we like, so at this point, I  am not worried about TE.

[DWinzit]

26 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I think removing 3 and 4 TE sets from the game plan is probably relatively easy.  Yes its nice to have that in your bag for redzone and short yardage, but you can run 22 personnel with one receiver or 12 personnel with 2 receiver a still have a lot of options.  The one thing I think you always need is at least two decent healthy TE's because a lot of those formations are within your bread and butter stuff.

 

I am much more worried about the O-Line because I feel like game-planning around a bad O-Line is much tougher than say only having two healthy TE's that you feel comfortable with.   Right now we still have 4 TE's we like, so at this point, I  am not worried about TE.

Guess we will see how it works out. One man down after a few days of OTA's without hitting so far. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

Listened to Keim-Bram.  Podcast about camp.

 

Bram has a bit of a wild ride of a take IMO about this team.  It's more or less he loves this roster.  And while he admits he has some skepticism about Howell based on what he's seen in camp -- if Howell is who he thinks they think he is.  Then this team will be cooking.  Rivera needs to then sell his vision to Harris and we got ourselves a potential great team going forward. 

 

He's not worried about the O line.  He just wants to see their vision of Howell coming to fruition where he at a minimum is at least as good as Kirk Cousins.

 

It felt to me like a bit of an odd point from him considering he's one of the people watching practices who have said hold your horses on Howell because he's far from killing it.  So his premise is if Howell kills if then why not let ride this roster to great things?  Sure, I'd agree with that aside from his faith in the offensive line.  But yeah if Howell's floor is Kirk Cousins, then I am on board with more Ron.  But it was weird to hear that from Bram who doesn't come off fully sold at all on Howell based on practices.

 

Points made.

 

A.  The secondary and defense looks great, fast unit.  Higlighted Forbes and Quan Martin.

 

B. Del Rio is typically buttoned up but these days he's unplugged.  Bram suggested he knows he's got a top unit

 

C. K. Hudson looks good.  Hence they've tempered their enthusiasm about getting another LB.

 

D.  Anyone looking for one media member to sell the O line.  They got one in Bram.  Keim was measured, he said lets wait and see.  But Bram was outright enthusiasitc.  He said he watched the tape of Gates post injury and just loved him.  Since when does Bram watch tape?  But OK, cool.    Apparently he has no injury concerns about Cosmi since he mentioned no disclaimer about him.  Wylie is a big improvement.  And his only concern is Charles at LG.

 

Bram also defended them taking 3rd-4th rounders who likely won't contribute saying that's totally fine with him.  Keim hit its just not that they aren't starting but they may not play.  Bram didn't let Keim complete that point. And instead launched from there about how the national meda thinks they will suck and they are wrong.  But then goes its obvious that a LT is who they take in next years draft.  

 

E.  Bram thinks its a loaded roster it just depends on Howell.  This is the 2nd time I've listened to Bram of late on Howell and its tough to summarize his take because he's a bit all over the place on him.  But the gist is he likes the flashes but also sees concerns.

 

F.  Thomas and Cole Turner will be tough to stop in the red zone especially when on the field together

 

G.  In general, Bram isn't in love with that he's seen from the offense, saying its below what people would want to see but cautioned its early

 

H.  Both Gibson and Robinson are catching a lot of balls in practice.

 

I. Bieiniemy is very vocal on the field and has a presence about him where they don't get why he's never been a HC.  But Bram cautioned that his style is probably not for everyone so speculated about it might put off some players over time.

 

J.  The offense stylstically looks a lot like KC -- quick game, short passes.

 

K.  Bram overheard Doston being told that they know how great he can be and want to bring out that potential

 

L.  Keim said to hold your horses on the Chase being traded rumors. Right now, they wouldn't get much anything different than the comp pick that they'd get if they let him hit FA.  So its much better to have him play on that contract situation.  If he ends up great they will pay him.  But then later in conversation with Bram he talked for a second about whether they'd pay for both edge rushers, implying its a question. 

 

That's why I said to @actorguy1 the other day if I had a question to Keim it would be that topic because Keim has been unsually all over the place on it.  He's said they want Sweat back.   Previously he said that they noticed what SF did in dealing one of their D lineman and that idea is on the table.  But its a lot of back and forth with him on that point -- maybe the team is waffiling on the point?  That's how it comes off to me purely by judging Keim talk about the topic.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

There is no reason not to think Howell can get to Kirk comparisons with more rushing yards early. Hoping he can later mature into much more!

 

Hudson is going to need to play well at this point. That is what I have read on him in the limited mentions on him.

 

OT will need to be priority moving forward

 

Curl isn't involved in the future contracts discussions today, just Sweat and Chase. That's telling and makes sense

[redskinss]

Did curl participate in the mandatory mini camp?

I knew he sat out ota's but can't remember if I heard his name in mini camps or not.

[actorguy1]

 

 

[CobraCommander]

Just now, actorguy1 said:

 

 

Can't let the fear on injury dictate your practices. Ron is afraid of his own shadow sometimes. 

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

There is no reason not to think Howell can get to Kirk comparisons with more rushing yards early. Hoping he can later mature into much more!

 

Hudson is going to need to play well at this point. That is what I have read on him in the limited mentions on him.

 

OT will need to be priority moving forward

 

Curl isn't involved in the future contracts discussions today, just Sweat and Chase. That's telling and makes sense

 

Kirk Cousins according to most is a slam dunk 10-14 QB, he'd likely be top ten to some if he were clutch.

 

Not unreasonable to expect Kirk and hoping for much more.  If its much more, we are talking potentially top 5?

 

 

The more I listen to those covering camp, the more i am tempted to go to form my own opinion because I don't have a great read on Howell based on those reports.   they seem all over the place.  I just listened to Phillips talk about it and he said its really tough to tell right now based on camp.

 

Heck even Bram who talked up this roster was also measured about Howell and listening to his takes, there were good things to take away about Howell's play, and bad things without me getting an overriding impression.  Feels like Chris Russell's summary of Howell ranging from hot and cold in practices might not be far off.  But I'd like to see it for myself, maybe. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kirk Cousins according to most is a slam dunk 10-14 QB, he'd likelt be top ten to some if he were clutch.

 

Not unreasonable to expect Kirk and hoping for much more.  If its much more, we are talking potentially top 5?

 

 

The more I listen to those covering camp, the more i am tempting to go to form my own opinion because I don't have a great read on Howell based on those reports.   they seem all over the place.  I just listened to Phillips talk about it and he said its really tough to tell right now based on camp.

 

Heck even Bram who talked up this roster was also measured about Howell and listening to his takes, there were good things to take away about Howell's play, and bad things without me getting an overriding impression.  Feels like Chris Russell's summary of Howell ranging from hot and cold in practices might not be far off.  But I'd like to see it for myself, maybe. 

In fairness it is pretty tough to judge based on what little anyone has seen Howell and how little time Howell has been getting time with the starters. It will be much easier to get that read come August

 

Just a minor note from your prior post on Keim-Bram...How can JDR not be proud of the defensive group lol. I'd walking around with the chest pumped out if I were in his spot

[bowhunter]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

  I think the TE spot could work out.  Cole Turner in particular if he stays healthy IMO could be really good -- he's one of my favorite players from that 2022 draft.

I acknowledge that I've gotten lazier and rely a lot upon player assesments made by you and K-Dawg. However I did need to refresh my memory on Cole Turner. So I found this "highlight" reel. 

But the one thing that bothered me from those clips was he had maybe 4 RAC yards in that entire clip. As if his sole job was to catch the ball and fall down.. Has shown much ability to actually run as well?

 

[shemp nixon]

49 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kirk Cousins according to most is a slam dunk 10-14 QB, he'd likely be top ten to some if he were clutch.

 

Not unreasonable to expect Kirk and hoping for much more.  If its much more, we are talking potentially top 5?

 

 

The more I listen to those covering camp, the more i am tempted to go to form my own opinion because I don't have a great read on Howell based on those reports.   they seem all over the place.  I just listened to Phillips talk about it and he said its really tough to tell right now based on camp.

 

Heck even Bram who talked up this roster was also measured about Howell and listening to his takes, there were good things to take away about Howell's play, and bad things without me getting an overriding impression.  Feels like Chris Russell's summary of Howell ranging from hot and cold in practices might not be far off.  But I'd like to see it for myself, maybe. 

What were people's expectations of Howell this offseason? He's a young, inexperienced QB learning a complicated new system against a top D.

I take the fact that he is holding his own and flashing as encouraging.

[DWinzit]

5 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

I acknowledge that I've gotten lazier and rely a lot upon player assesments made by you and K-Dawg. However I did need to refresh my memory on Cole Turner. So I found this "highlight" reel. 

But the one thing that bothered me from those clips was he had maybe 4 RAC yards in that entire clip. As if his sole job was to catch the ball and fall down.. Has shown much ability to actually run as well?

 

He has really good hands, runs very good routes, understand how to come back to assist QB's when under pressure, but runs like a 4.75 40 and definitely not known for RAC

 

He does those good and is eh, ok blocking

Hodges can RAC but not block

Thomas can kind of do everything

Bates is best at blocking and can kind of do everything

 

This is one of the overlooked reasons by some as to the issue at TE. They can't all do the same things. If Bates goes down there is no really good blocking TE. Probably the best RAC guy really should be on a practice squad as he is still learning the position.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, shemp nixon said:

What were people's expectations of Howell this offseason? He's a young, inexperienced QB learning a complicated new system against a top D.

I take the fact that he is holding his own and flashing as encouraging.

 

I didn't say i was enouraged or discouraged.  Nothing about expectations.  I said the reports are all over the place and more so than I am used to compared to previous years including with the young QBs.  So i am tempted to see it for myself because I am not getting a good read listening the narratives -- good or bad.

 

49 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

In fairness it is pretty tough to judge based on what little anyone has seen Howell and how little time Howell has been getting time with the starters. It will be much easier to get that read come August

 

Just a minor note from your prior post on Keim-Bram...How can JDR not be proud of the defensive group lol. I'd walking around with the chest pumped out if I were in his spot

 

Yeah the defense looks good. Howell is getting plenty of time with the starters but the camp is still young, sample is still small.

 

Agree August should be easier.  I am not looking for a definitive picture this early but the takes are so all over the place on him that i have no clear picture in my head about it.  But yeah from my own experience going to training camps -- you can see a lot typically at least as to accuracy. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

I acknowledge that I've gotten lazier and rely a lot upon player assesments made by you and K-Dawg. However I did need to refresh my memory on Cole Turner. So I found this "highlight" reel. 

But the one thing that bothered me from those clips was he had maybe 4 RAC yards in that entire clip. As if his sole job was to catch the ball and fall down.. Has shown much ability to actually run as well?

 

 

Cole is about his catch radius and on that same point making plays in the red zone. He was third in that TE class in that draft in TDs. 

 

He made his share of 2nd level catches.  So while he's not fast, he can move well enough to get open in the middle of the field.  He had the 2nd best 3 cone time among the TEs I charted for that draft.

 

But yeah he's not a YAC fiend.  He's sort of like another lanky good catch radius guy from this past draft in Luke Musgrave.   Musgrave also about making acrobatic catches but not much of a YAC guy. 

 

For someone like Howell who according to some struggles some in practice as to the middle of the field -- having a 6 '7 target who can high point a ball and also make acrobatic lateral type catches should be helpful.

 

I think the reason why this team was supposedly upset about losing Armani Rodgers is he was the YAC dude in this group.  I know some here think whomever highlights that injury is just being a hater because what's the big deal.  I gather they thought it was a big deal and I could see why because he was the dude in this mix who as Keim said they could see being part of the screen game -- take a screen and take it to the house.  That's not Turner.  Turner is more of the old school -- throw it up high and watch him make a contested catch type.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise