2024 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[DWinzit]

I am finding it hard to understand how Peters wanted to move back into the 1st to grab a OT then be satisfied with Coleman.

There were so many good OT options allowed to pass by and other IOL available when "settling". 

This draft will be looked back on a big success due a number of great players. To me based on team needs and the strengths of this draft, if Coleman isn't at least decent, it's a big black mark.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, DWinzit said:

I am finding it hard to understand how Peters wanted to move back into the 1st to grab a OT then be satisfied with Coleman.

There were so many good OT options allowed to pass by and other IOL available when "settling". 

This draft will be looked back on a big success due a number of great players. To me based on team needs and the strengths of this draft, if Coleman isn't at least decent, it's a big black mark.

 

 

I think if anything it makes it much easier to understand factoring that context.

 

It was more or less if anything a conventional mock draft take that there was a clear first tier of tackles.  That tier was likely going all in the first round with maybe there was an off chance that one would fall to 36.  No one fell.  All the big names went in the first.

 

Also conventional mock draft take was that the 2nd tier types were much more wildcards than high floor players, all with different flavors and could go anywhere from the 2nd to the third rounds.

 

The FO really really wanted a first tier tackle.  Tried to trade up, and couldn't do it.  If they were in love with the 2nd tier of tackles why trade up in the first?  So clearly, they weren't enamored with that 2nd tier group.

 

Settling and regret, maybe, but clearly they don't feel that way.  If lets say as an example my favorite 2nd tier tackles Fisher or Paul turn out to be very good tackles, I'd bet Peters regrets it.  But I got no idea that I am right and Peters is wrong.  Just like we got no idea that Coleman isnt good just because some people here don't like the player.    Teams don't all see these players the same way.  We don't all see the players the same way.   We got no idea how it will play out until it plays out.

 

I liked Gonzalez over Forbes in the last draft.  But I let it age some before pounding them for taking one over the other.    Gonzalez looked great and Forbes sucked.  I chimed in then. Not saying people can't chime in now.  But IMHO I'd hold off any angst.  We've been right, we've been wrong about players.   Rivera lost the benefit of the doubt with me over time on this front.  Peters considering his rep is coming at this with a clean slate from me.  i am not going to assume he's wrong until it plays out that he's wrong.

 

Also factor that they really really liked Sainstril.  That was clear. And they really liked Sinnott.  If they loved Sainstril and loved Sinnot why take a tackle they don't love, instead?

 

And how do we know they didn't love a tackle in the 2nd round?  it's because they wanted to trade up into the first round to get one.  How do we know they loved Saninstril and Sinnott?  Narratives came out post draft.  We found out they could have traded down from the pick where they got Sinnott and they didn't do it.  And a story came out that Sainstril was a big target for this regime in the 2nd.

Edited May 9 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

All you can do is take is wait and see approach. The more players that become eventual starters the better and it will make it easier in future drafts.

 

If Jayden ends up the only player that works out, that’s devastating. Even worse if Jayden busts.

 

I still expect the core of team to be acquired thru the draft. By the time we hopefully are contenders around 2026; drafted players from this regime or holdovers from past, will make up most of the core.

Edited May 9 by 88Comrade2000

[CommanderInTheRye]

Rather than grading our 2024 draft which at best would be just a wild guess, this guy goes back and grades our 2021 draft with the benefit of hindsight.

 

Probably one of the worst NFL drafts in the last 10 years. No wonder AP and DQ are just tossing jokers out the back door.

 

Can’t really argue with any of his grades.

 

Guess who gets an F-

 

 

 

Home  Sports  NFL

Re-Grading Washington’s 2021 Draft

by Ryan Cooley

 

 May 8, 2024

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/lists/how-did-washington-commanders-2021-nfl-draft-class-grade/

 

 

MandeBy: Ryan Cooley

*All stats/grades are via PFF

I am sure everyone has seen about 50 different “grades” for the Washington Commanders 2024 draft. I am not a fan of grading drafts right out of the gate because no one has a clue how those picks will turn out.

After last year’s drafts, I decided to go back and grade their one from 2020. I feel three years is a good timetable to see how an organization’s draft went. So, I am doing that again for the 2021 draft.

Jamin Davis (round 1, pick 19): C-

I could go with a lower grade here, but I think that would be a bit harsh on Jamin Davis. He has taken the steps on the field that you would want to see from a developmental LB. However, that doesn’t excuse taking a developmental LB 19^th overall. The low grade is more of a reflection of the decision to take someone like Davis in the 1^st round.

Davis only started 11 games in college. Yes, you read that right. The last regime thought a LB with only 11 starts in college would come in and play at a high level in his first two years.

As I mentioned, Davis has improved each year. He has taken strides when it comes to run defense. In his rookie year, he only managed a run defense grade of 48.6 (43^rd) and a missed tackle rate of 14.3% (54^th). In 2023, he posted a 76.1 (19^th) run defense grade and only a missed tackle rate of 5.6% (4^th).

Sam Cosmi (round 2, pick 51): A

Cosmi will likely go down as the best pick from the Rivera era. He spent his first two years at RT where he played well, but struggled with consistency and injuries. He took a big leap when he moved to RG in 2023.

He had some ups and downs to start the year but played like a man possessed from week 11 on. In those 7 games, he managed both the highest pass-blocking grade (88.3) and the highest run-blocking grade (88.1) among all guards.

I have the utmost confidence that he can be a top-five guard in the NFL if he can stay healthy.

Benjamin St-Juste (round 3, pick 74): C

St-Juste has had so many highs and lows in his first three seasons. In just 2023, he had three games with an 80+ grade. However, he also had three games with a grade of 45 or lower. Coming out of Minnesota, St-Juste’s physical tools (specifically his massive wingspan) were intriguing. Many believed he could be a high-end CB with enough reps and development. Unfortunately, he has not taken the steps everyone had hoped.

There is a possibility with better coaching, he could improve in 2024.

Dyami Brown (round 3, pick 82): F

We see a ton of success from day two receivers, but not so much from Brown. Dyami was projected to be a 2^nd rounder by some. He ended up falling to Washington at pick 82. Since then, he has only managed 476 yards and 3 TDs on 29 receptions in three seasons.

I thought with Howell becoming the starter in 2023 that there was a possibility their connection from college could be revived. That obviously did not happen.

John Bates (round 4, pick 124): D

Bates looked like a solid pick after his rookie season. He posted an impressive 87.6 run-blocking grade (1^st) in 2021. However, he has failed to recapture that dominance in the past two seasons, only managing a run-blocking grade of 65 and 60.

Bates has had little impact in the passing game as well. He has failed to reach even 200 receiving yards in either of the past two seasons. With the signing of Ertz and the selection of Sinnott in round 2, there is a strong chance Bates won’t make the team in 2024.

Darrick Forrest (round 5, pick 163): B

Many loved the Forrest selection and viewed him as a steal in the 5^th round. After impressing in his sophomore season, there were hopes he could the next step up. Unfortunately, he suffered a fractured shoulder in week 5 and missed the rest of the year.

With so much turnover this offseason, his spot at FS is not guaranteed. However, I believe he will win the starting job.

Camaron Cheeseman (round 6, pick 225): F-

I’m aware there isn’t a grade lower than an F, but this pick was so bad that I had to slap on the minus. I honestly can’t think of a pick that better represents the last front office. Not only did they draft a long snapper, BUT THEY TRADED UP FOR ONE! Now if you think that is bad enough, it’s not, because that long snapper quite literally could not long snap.

 

.

To make matters worse, the very next pick was Trey Smith. Smith has been the Chiefs starting RG all three years and has yet to have a season with a blocking grade lower than 72.

 

William Bradley-King (round7pick 240) :D

 

It might be a harsh grade for someone taken 240th, but there were hopes that he could be a good depth piece for Washington. Instead, Bradley-King barely played for the burgundy and gold and was with the Patriots in 2023.

 

In 2021, he was on the field for 59 snaps and posted a 40.4 overall grade. In 2022, he played even fewer snaps at 24 and only mustered a 33.7 grade.

 

Shaka Toney (round 7, pick 246): F

 

I initially liked the Toney pick and believed out of the two Edges taken in the 7th round, he had the most potential. Instead, he thought it would be a stupendous idea to bet on NFL games. This led to a year-long suspension. Shortly after being reinstated into the league, Adam Peters cut Toney from the team.

 

I believe he has potential, but he will need a team to give him another chance.

 

Dax Milne (round 7, pick 258): C+

 

Milne has not been a fan favorite, but I still think he has done well for being the 258th pick. On offense, he has barely played, only catching 15 balls in three seasons. He instead was the primary returner in 2022. This is where most of the negativity surrounding Milne has spawned. Fans got tired of seeing his fair catches with no explosive returns.

 

Though, I believe Milne was much better than people gave him credit for.

 

That being said, Crowder did very well with return duties in 2023 and I expect him to be the favorite going into 2024.

 

Overall: D

 

Sam Cosmi is the main reason this draft didn’t receive an F. He is the only player out of 10 picks who is a guaranteed starter in 2024. I believe Davis and Forrest are decent pieces, but they don’t move the needle enough.

 

The last regime is gone, so I don’t want to harp on them too much. So, the only thing I will say is that I couldn’t be happier Adam Peters is in charge now.

 

 

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[skinny21]

Would be ironic if Quinn/Whitt resuscitated Davis and St Juste as it would kind of save that draft class’ grade (along with Forrest and Cosmi).  All 3 defensive guys seem like they could be good fits, and landing 4 starter caliber players is typically seen as a success. Of course, I could just as easily envision Davis serving solely as a part timer, and Forrest/St Juste challenge - and quite possibly lose out to - Martin and Davis/Forbes/our UDFAs.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Rather than grading our 2024 draft which at best would be just a wild guess, this guy goes back and grades our 2021 draft with the benefit of hindsight.

 

Probably one of the worst NFL drafts in the last 10 years. No wonder AP and DQ are just tossing jokers out the back door.

 

Can’t really argue with any of his grades.

 

Guess who gets an F-

 

 

 

Home  Sports  NFL

Re-Grading Washington’s 2021 Draft

by Ryan Cooley

 

 May 8, 2024

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/lists/how-did-washington-commanders-2021-nfl-draft-class-grade/

 

 

MandeBy: Ryan Cooley

*All stats/grades are via PFF

I am sure everyone has seen about 50 different “grades” for the Washington Commanders 2024 draft. I am not a fan of grading drafts right out of the gate because no one has a clue how those picks will turn out.

After last year’s drafts, I decided to go back and grade their one from 2020. I feel three years is a good timetable to see how an organization’s draft went. So, I am doing that again for the 2021 draft.

Jamin Davis (round 1, pick 19): C-

I could go with a lower grade here, but I think that would be a bit harsh on Jamin Davis. He has taken the steps on the field that you would want to see from a developmental LB. However, that doesn’t excuse taking a developmental LB 19^th overall. The low grade is more of a reflection of the decision to take someone like Davis in the 1^st round.

Davis only started 11 games in college. Yes, you read that right. The last regime thought a LB with only 11 starts in college would come in and play at a high level in his first two years.

As I mentioned, Davis has improved each year. He has taken strides when it comes to run defense. In his rookie year, he only managed a run defense grade of 48.6 (43^rd) and a missed tackle rate of 14.3% (54^th). In 2023, he posted a 76.1 (19^th) run defense grade and only a missed tackle rate of 5.6% (4^th).

Sam Cosmi (round 2, pick 51): A

Cosmi will likely go down as the best pick from the Rivera era. He spent his first two years at RT where he played well, but struggled with consistency and injuries. He took a big leap when he moved to RG in 2023.

He had some ups and downs to start the year but played like a man possessed from week 11 on. In those 7 games, he managed both the highest pass-blocking grade (88.3) and the highest run-blocking grade (88.1) among all guards.

I have the utmost confidence that he can be a top-five guard in the NFL if he can stay healthy.

Benjamin St-Juste (round 3, pick 74): C

St-Juste has had so many highs and lows in his first three seasons. In just 2023, he had three games with an 80+ grade. However, he also had three games with a grade of 45 or lower. Coming out of Minnesota, St-Juste’s physical tools (specifically his massive wingspan) were intriguing. Many believed he could be a high-end CB with enough reps and development. Unfortunately, he has not taken the steps everyone had hoped.

There is a possibility with better coaching, he could improve in 2024.

Dyami Brown (round 3, pick 82): F

We see a ton of success from day two receivers, but not so much from Brown. Dyami was projected to be a 2^nd rounder by some. He ended up falling to Washington at pick 82. Since then, he has only managed 476 yards and 3 TDs on 29 receptions in three seasons.

I thought with Howell becoming the starter in 2023 that there was a possibility their connection from college could be revived. That obviously did not happen.

John Bates (round 4, pick 124): D

Bates looked like a solid pick after his rookie season. He posted an impressive 87.6 run-blocking grade (1^st) in 2021. However, he has failed to recapture that dominance in the past two seasons, only managing a run-blocking grade of 65 and 60.

Bates has had little impact in the passing game as well. He has failed to reach even 200 receiving yards in either of the past two seasons. With the signing of Ertz and the selection of Sinnott in round 2, there is a strong chance Bates won’t make the team in 2024.

Darrick Forrest (round 5, pick 163): B

Many loved the Forrest selection and viewed him as a steal in the 5^th round. After impressing in his sophomore season, there were hopes he could the next step up. Unfortunately, he suffered a fractured shoulder in week 5 and missed the rest of the year.

With so much turnover this offseason, his spot at FS is not guaranteed. However, I believe he will win the starting job.

Camaron Cheeseman (round 6, pick 225): F-

I’m aware there isn’t a grade lower than an F, but this pick was so bad that I had to slap on the minus. I honestly can’t think of a pick that better represents the last front office. Not only did they draft a long snapper, BUT THEY TRADED UP FOR ONE! Now if you think that is bad enough, it’s not, because that long snapper quite literally could not long snap.

 

.

To make matters worse, the very next pick was Trey Smith. Smith has been the Chiefs starting RG all three years and has yet to have a season with a blocking grade lower than 72.

 

William Bradley-King (round7pick 240) :D

 

It might be a harsh grade for someone taken 240th, but there were hopes that he could be a good depth piece for Washington. Instead, Bradley-King barely played for the burgundy and gold and was with the Patriots in 2023.

 

In 2021, he was on the field for 59 snaps and posted a 40.4 overall grade. In 2022, he played even fewer snaps at 24 and only mustered a 33.7 grade.

 

Shaka Toney (round 7, pick 246): F

 

I initially liked the Toney pick and believed out of the two Edges taken in the 7th round, he had the most potential. Instead, he thought it would be a stupendous idea to bet on NFL games. This led to a year-long suspension. Shortly after being reinstated into the league, Adam Peters cut Toney from the team.

 

I believe he has potential, but he will need a team to give him another chance.

 

Dax Milne (round 7, pick 258): C+

 

Milne has not been a fan favorite, but I still think he has done well for being the 258th pick. On offense, he has barely played, only catching 15 balls in three seasons. He instead was the primary returner in 2022. This is where most of the negativity surrounding Milne has spawned. Fans got tired of seeing his fair catches with no explosive returns.

 

Though, I believe Milne was much better than people gave him credit for.

 

That being said, Crowder did very well with return duties in 2023 and I expect him to be the favorite going into 2024.

 

Overall: D

 

Sam Cosmi is the main reason this draft didn’t receive an F. He is the only player out of 10 picks who is a guaranteed starter in 2024. I believe Davis and Forrest are decent pieces, but they don’t move the needle enough.

 

The last regime is gone, so I don’t want to harp on them too much. So, the only thing I will say is that I couldn’t be happier Adam Peters is in charge now.

 

 

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The irony is I think the 2021 draft was Ron's best one.   I don't think it was awful.  But has his share of opportunity cost in them. 

4 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Would be ironic if Quinn/Whitt resuscitated Davis and St Juste as it would kind of save that draft class’ grade (along with Forrest and Cosmi).  All 3 defensive guys seem like they could be good fits, and landing 4 starter caliber players is typically seen as a success. Of course, I could just as easily envision Davis serving solely as a part timer, and Forrest/St Juste challenge - and quite possibly lose out to - Martin and Davis/Forbes/our UDFAs.

 

Agree, I have some faith if any of his draft classes can be saved its that one.

Edited May 9 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think if anything it makes it much easier to understand factoring that context.

 

It was more or less if anything a conventional mock draft take that there was a clear first tier of tackles.  That tier was likely going all in the first round with maybe there was an off chance that one would fall to 36.  No one fell.  All the big names went in the first.

 

Also conventional mock draft take was that the 2nd tier types were much more wildcards than high floor players, all with different flavors and could go anywhere from the 2nd to the third rounds.

 

The FO really really wanted a first tier tackle.  Tried to trade up, and couldn't do it.  If they were in love with the 2nd tier of tackles why trade up in the first?  So clearly, they weren't enamored with that 2nd tier group.

 

Settling and regret, maybe, but clearly they don't feel that way.  If lets say as an example my favorite 2nd tier tackles Fisher or Paul turn out to be very good tackles, I'd bet Peters regrets it.  But I got no idea that I am right and Peters is wrong.  Just like we got no idea that Coleman isnt good just because some people here don't like the player.    Teams don't all see these players the same way.  We don't all see the players the same way.   We got no idea how it will play out until it plays out.

 

I liked Gonzalez over Forbes in the last draft.  But I let it age some before pounding them for taking one over the other.    Gonzalez looked great and Forbes sucked.  I chimed in then. Not saying people can't chime in now.  But IMHO I'd hold off any angst.  We've been right, we've been wrong about players.   Rivera lost the benefit of the doubt with me over time on this front.  Peters considering his rep is coming at this with a clean slate from me.  i am not going to assume he's wrong until it plays out that he's wrong.

 

Also factor that they really really liked Sainstril.  That was clear. And they really liked Sinnott.  If they loved Sainstril and loved Sinnot why take a tackle they don't love, instead?

 

And how do we know they didn't love a tackle in the 2nd round?  it's because they wanted to trade up into the first round to get one.  How do we know they loved Saninstril and Sinnott?  Narratives came out post draft.  We found out they could have traded down from the pick where they got Sinnott and they didn't do it.  And a story came out that Sainstril was a big target for this regime in the 2nd.

I don''t disagree with your comments, in fact posted similarly on most points. My last post was focused on the teams need for bolstering the OL and specifically at the Tackle spots. The FA market was sparse on talent at the positions so they focused on the IOL some. That left T's as the need and a strong draft class for the position. They chose to pass on many higher ranked players in the second tier along with a few IOL with higher grades for Coleman. There may not be any decent other T's available in FA and I guess this is just me showing frustration with a shinny new QB and questionable protection...an all to familiar situation as we just about killed Howell just a few months back.  

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I don''t disagree with your comments, in fact posted similarly on most points. My last post was focused on the teams need for bolstering the OL and specifically at the Tackle spots. The FA market was sparse on talent at the positions so they focused on the IOL some. That left T's as the need and a strong draft class for the position. They chose to pass on many higher ranked players in the second tier along with a few IOL with higher grades for Coleman. There may not be any decent other T's available in FA and I guess this is just me showing frustration with a shinny new QB and questionable protection...an all to familiar situation as we just about killed Howell just a few months back.  

 

You can't build Rome in a day.  One of the same people who pressed on this same thread weeks before the draft that we are wrong (me included) for pushing them to take a lesser O lineman in the 2nd round instead of a better player at another spot and we don't need to be fixated on that OT spot -- is now pushing the opposite narrative that we should have taken an O lineman in retrospect.   And I get its from another point of view.  So I am not hitting that take, but it helps explain ironically their mindset matched this same mindset but their board was simply different.  That's all. My board is different from people here and vice versa.  Why shouldn't theirs be different?  

 

I gather his shift on the position is he doesn't agree with their takes on BPA that unfolded.   OK that's fair.  That's fine but that's just a battle of their opinion versus Peters opinion about talent.  Or the same point applies to any of us.  And again, OK to disagree.  But I don't see how we know today that we are right and they are wrong.  We got to see it unfold of course.  And then we can gloat or lament or whatever like we did when last season unfolded. 

 

I bring this up here because I actually agree with the premise of BPA and not to force a pick at any spot.  But IMHO I felt a couple of dudes in th 2nd, Fisher and Paul would be good.  But I wasn't so certain of that where I'd bet the house on it.  This regime is insanely detailed in diving into these players so at a minimum they had a lot more info than I did from watching these guys on youtube.   So I'll at least see how it plays out.  Hence my example of Gonzalez over Forbes.  I still let their script play out before killing them on that one. .  We can't say they blew it or made a mistake with 100% certainty until an actual mistake unfolds. Right now its just opinion and that's all good.  

 

Again clearly they didn't love the 2nd tier guys.  We know that 100% because you don't try to trade up into the first if you are saying to yourself at the same time you know that Patrick Paul or Kingsley are studs, so lets just sit back and take them?  Clearly they didn't feel that way.  100% we know that.  They both tried to trade up because they didn't feel comfortable with that next tier AND skipped over that 2nd tier group THREE times in the 2nd round.

 

Also, I don't buy the premise that some have that Daniels among all the young QBs is the one who needs the big time O line.  I'll start with they all do.  Maye got hammered behind his O line.  It was his excuse for bad play in 4 games versus the dude thrived without it.  Typically Qbs with wheels like Daniels are talked about the opposite way, that is, they can overcome a bad line easier.  The Justin Fields slow processing style IMHO is apples to oranges to Daniels.   Daniels had the higher PFF grade over Maye under pressure.  If I recall Daniels had a killer rating versus the blitz, etc.  Don't get me wrong, i loved Maye because of how he'd layer throws among other things.  And Daniels had the much better O line.  But just in general as to which QB needed the better O line, I don't believe its one over the other.   

 

As for the third round, I liked Beebe as much as anyone here.  But the irony is reading the scouts description about him reminds me that i also liked Will Hernandez and I was wrong about him.  Hernandez tape was fun, he would maul dudes Beebe style but was meh in the NFL.  Not saying Beebe will be meh.  I still like him but we don't know until we know

 

I think the clear biggest difference between Beebe and Coleman as if they want a tackle -- it 100% isn't Beebe.  Coleman has the measurables to do it.  Who ends up better?  Who knows will see.  Coleman was 66 in Brugler's top 100.  He was ranked as a 2nd-3rd rounder by the scouts -- identical to Beebe.  As much as I love our takes here.  Our board is not their board. 

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/part-2-ol-can-this-long-armed-tyrannosaurus

 

COOPER BEEBE, Kansas State (6-3, 322, 5.00, 2-3): Fifth-year senior, four-year starter. “Just a huge upper-body brawler,” one scout said. “Slow feet, limited athlete. No bend. Top-heavy dude. Smart, technique-sound tough guy but very limited as an athlete.” Started games at three positions: 26 at LG, 13 at LT and nine at RT. “Old-time offensive lineman mentality,” a second scout said. “Mauler. Nasty. Not as athletic as some of the others. He can short set in pass pro but if you ask him to play in space he’s got some problems. He’s a guard. I liked him much more last year (2022). Not as quick or mobile (in 2023).” Arms were just 31 1/2, hands were 9 ¼. “Short arms, like 30 some percent body fat,” said a second scout. “Not a really impressive athlete. He is a tough guy, I’m not going to take that away from him. He can move a defender in the run game. He’s similar to Will Hernandez. Hernandez didn’t look bad, though. He was just short.” From Kansas City, Kan.

 

BRANDON COLEMAN, Texas Christian (6-4 ½, 316, 4.99, 2-3): Will be 24 in October. Six-year collegian with two years of junior college and four years at TCU, including three as a starter. “Born here, moved to Germany, grew up over there playing basketball,” said one scout. “Came back. Has played guard and tackle. He’s got sort of tackle dimensions but he’s tight laterally so most people forecast him as a guard. He’s a big body, and he can cover people up. Still somewhat new to the game.” His starts included 22 at LT and 12 at LG. His breakdown in 2023 was seven at LT, four at LG. “He reminded me of the Matthew Bergeron kid who played left tackle in college and had a good (rookie) season for the Falcons kicking inside to guard,” a second scout said. “He’s one of the top five or six interior offensive linemen. There’s a little up and down with his finish. He gets a little top-heavy. I think moving inside would (help).” Arms were 34 5/8, hands were a position-best 10 ¾. Added a third scout: “I have some reservations but he's a third-round guard. He lacks consistency of play because they’ve moved him around. He’s a JUCO kid. That kind of set him back. He just needs to be locked into one position.” From Denton, Texas.

Edited May 9 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Didn't know that Jean-Baptiste was on Feldman's freaks list, that's cool, he was one of the players i was pounding the table for late

 

 

Edited May 9 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

Well, just going to pray Coleman works out at T. He doesn't have a high bar to exceed when competing with Wylie, Locus, Daniels and Scott.

 

I am really hoping Braeden Daniels can prove out to be a worthy of his 4th round selections. 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Well, just going to pray Coleman works out at T. He doesn't have a high bar to exceed when competing with Wylie, Locus, Daniels and Scott.

 

I am really hoping Braeden Daniels can prove out to be a worthy of his 4th round selections. 

 

Braeden Daniels.  Talk about a guy who should be a guard and not a tackle though Rivera stressed he's a tackle.   294 pounds with 33 inch arms.

 

The dude was smooth at times in pass protect in college but those dimensons are not tackle dimesnions.  At a minimum he needs to put on 15-18 pounds and hopefully not lose his quickness.   But I don't have a lot of hope considering hearing about how he had a really bad camp last year.

 

My gut from watching a Coleman game.  And I got to watch more is that he can be a high end guard.  I am mixed about tackle.  i do agree with McGinn's scouts takes about his lateral movement - that's where he comes off stiff to me.  But who knows?  He didn't look bad to my eyes at tackle.  I just wonder about his ability to deal with slippery speed types.  i do think he brings the hands and power to deal with the position well.

 

His upper body girth actually reminds me some ironically of Beebe -- not quite the same upperbody but he also doesn't seem to have the gut that Beebe does.  He doesn't have the mean streak Beebe has.  But watching him that one game at LT, he comes off to me as a dude who would be super stout as a pass blocker at LG because he just looks so strong and stout with heavy hands.   

 

In the run game, he has moments.  I noticed some tout him on that count and some don't.  I get the idea why some really dig him on that front and some don't.  It's because at least in that one game he has highs and lows.  Some highs included people mover blocks and some lows where he doesn't sustain his blocks well.  Especally at guard, I'd trust him and big time so in pass protect and I'd try to develop him as a run blocker.

 

High grades from PFF in 2022, low in 2023.  But tough for me to factor 2023, I just don't see how you can play a full season with a high ankle sprain, that feels insane to me.  His coach talked about it.  Shows his toughness.  But considering its easy to see watching that game from 2022 that his strength is anchoring, I can't see how I can judge him while taking his superpower away which is the consequence of playing on a bad ankle. 

 

LT is a tougher call for me.  He certainly has the dimensions to play LT and the athleticism.  But i can see that go either way.  Training camp should be interesting with him.  Sometimes in camp that's part of the point, try them and see how it plays out.  Scheriff played LT in college.  They tried him at RT in camp but quickly saw him as a RG.

 

If Coleman ends up a high end LG, I'll take it.   If so, hopefully Lucas holds up a LT and they sign another one ala Bahktari.  I am not a Wylie guy.  But I have some hope that he will be better in an offense that doesn't pass the ball 100 times a game.   But if what evolves this off season is a really good interior O line with "meh" tackles.  I'll take it for now and fiinish the O line next year.  Last year we had a meh interior and meh tackles sans Cosmi.   So having a strong interior O line would be an improvement.   I don't think Lucas is that far off from Leno.   

Edited May 9 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I'd be surprised if Daniels even makes the team. 

 

That is the perfect example of why you don't reach for a position of need in the draft.

 

Coleman was a 3rd round developmental draft pick with huge upside. I doubt they've put his name down in pen as a starter. 

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am not a Wylie guy.  But I have some hope that he will be better in an offense that doesn't pass the ball 100 times a game. 

This, and hope that Daniels legs and overall game will make Wylie and the entire line better when they do have to pass. Seems likely.

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

This, and hope that Daniels legs and overall game will make Wylie and the entire line better when they do have to pass. Seems likely.

 

Could happen that way for sure.  In the bashing of Jayden from some on the QB thread there was a lot of posts that he holds onto the ball forever hence you need this rockstar O line.

 

I think though IMHO that stance was mixing two points and just riding on those two points even though there is more to it, more variables.  That is, Daniels would hold onto the ball on some reps especially when he wanted to go deep to Thomas.  LSU had a great O line.  Both points are true.  So in a vaccum, Daniels holds on to the ball for a long time and relied on a great O line.  Sounds really ominious that way. Butt....

 

But reality is if you watch him on numerous plays, he has a quick release when the idea is to go to the first level as opposed to deep.   He actually does pretty well with trash in his face as to throwing the ball.  Like I said he had a better PFF score than Maye under pressure.   One of the best scores versus the blitz.  On average he still had to get rid of the ball on average 3 seconds or less.  I agree that Maye was more used to playing under pressure but I don't think he per se thrived under it. 

 

Typically QBs who can run actually don't need the same level of pass blocking.  So the idea that Daniels needs even more of it feels a reach to me.  However, I do like a strong O line for any QB especially a young one.  But I am not in this mode that we got the young QB who needs that all star O line versus the lucky Patriots or Vikings who have young QBs who don't need the same level of an O line.  All three of those young QB IMO have wheels.  Daniels of course with the best wheels of the three.  I don't think one QB needs the better O line over the other 2.  And if I was forced to pick which QB might get away with less protection it would be Daniels. 

 

 

 

Edited May 9 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'd be surprised if Daniels even makes the team. 

 

That is the perfect example of why you don't reach for a position of need in the draft.

 

Coleman was a 3rd round developmental draft pick with huge upside. I doubt they've put his name down in pen as a starter. 

 

Yeah Rivera as we know would work the draft with specific need postions per round.  He was going to take Jamin because heck he wanted a LB.  Dotson or some Wr was a given because he wanted a WR.  On and on and on.

 

This FO clearly went BPA.  The idea that their BPA would fit ours would be too wild, I'd think.  It's not going to happen.  So either we trust it or we don't. I admit though their BPA is close enough to mine that there was nothing that made me pause.  Heck they even took UDFAs that I touted previously and their 5th rounder was a dude I took on the board's mock draft and the 7th rounder was guy i pushed for on day 3.  Sinnott was my TE #2.    Sainstril was one of my favs for months.  So for me it was all plenty close enough.  But even it weren't, I'd give it a chance.  Will see. 

 

Back to Coleman.  66% give or take of 3rd rounders fail.  This isn't dissecting a top 10 pick.  I like to bet on traits especially later in the draft.  Look at Coleman versus a third rounder we took years ago on that front.  I'll watch some more Coleman.  Maybe my mind changes after watching more than one game.  But on that one game, I get it.  Doesn't feel crazy.  And clearly scouts (judging by McGinn) do not see it as crazy, ditto a bunch of mock draft types like Brugler -- and tha dude Brandon Thon who some of the mock draft types push as a good O line draft evaulator among others.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

Regarding the Coleman pick, seems like the upside is there to become a decent, or even pretty good tackle, and a pretty good to very good G.  But I’d also say the floor matters as well.  My guess is it’s swing tackle and next man up at G, which is valuable, even if it would be far less than we’re hoping for.

 

As to the philosophy of the pick, along with not addressing OT in the 2nd, I think it’s fair to guess they probably had a grouping of guys at the spot and figured one or more would fall to 67 - some combo of Fisher/Paul/Rosengarten/Suamataia/Coleman/Wallace/Amegadjie/Foster/etc.  If that is indeed the case, I think it bolsters the logic of selecting Sainristil and Sinnot.  And frankly, even if we’d landed any of those guys in the 2nd, or even traded up for an OT, I still would be nervous about our tackle situation.

 

Zooming out even further, I expected a draft focused on helping Daniels.  I was imagining drafting at least one tackle and maybe a 2nd (possibly more of a G/T), a receiver or two (particularly given the depth of the position), maybe/probably a TE, maybe a back, and maybe another IOL.

In hindsight though, they…

1) brought back Lucas, which at minimum solves the swing tackle spot, though obviously he’ll compete for the starting gig.

2) signed Allegretti - competition for LG (with Deiter, Stromberg, Paul, Daniels, etc.)

3) signed Deiter - G/C depth (and competition at LG)

4) did a nice job addressing TE with Ertz/Sinnot

5) solidly addressed slot receiver with Crowder/McCaffrey

6) added Ekler, who, while aging, is still (IMO) a quality 3rd down back

7) drafted Coleman

😎signed Biadasz, who is a clear step up from our centers from last year

 

Nothing new there of course, but I thought it worth noting because while it’s not at all a finished product, it certainly appears that they brought in some solid competition (and therefore depth) and some pretty decent pass catchers.  Additionally, there’s some versatility as well - they can get a bit creative with how they use Sinnot, McCaffrey and Ekler, and they can shuffle the olineman a bit as needed.

 

All told, in terms of supporting Daniels, I believe they’ve hit on some key areas that typically help young qbs - 

1) improving the IOL to prevent some of the quick, in-your-face pressure

2) will be a bit better able to run the ball (and will almost certainly be a lot more balanced than we saw last year)

3) have an OC that is both creative and will cater to his qb to some extent.  Being a former qb himself, along with adding Brian Johnson, David Blough and Mariota to the mix should help as well.

4) added some qb friendly pass catchers, particularly safety valve types in Ekler, Ertz, Sinnot, Crowder and McCaffrey.

5) majorly overhauled the defense, and did so in a way that seems to really fit what Whitt is going for.

 

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not all rainbows and potty-trained puppies.  Our tackle position is pretty dang scary still, we really need Dotson to step up big time, there’s a lot of cooks in the kitchen on offense (and likely a lot of voices in Daniels’ ear), and it’s hard to be optimistic about Daniels protecting himself.  I’m also nervous that Daniels is stepping into a situation where he’s learning a new system (see LSU in ‘22) and, relatively speaking, is going to be playing with an inferior oline and wr group than he’s used to.  I do think we’ve made some solid strides in the right direction though, and barring a career ending injury (knock on wood), I expect a bright future for Daniels as they continue making strides in his supporting cast.

[Chump Bailey]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'd be surprised if Daniels even makes the team. 

 

That is the perfect example of why you don't reach for a position of need in the draft.

 

Coleman was a 3rd round developmental draft pick with huge upside. I doubt they've put his name down in pen as a starter. 

Daniels is a good athlete but my issue with him coming out was simply strength. Unless he has gotten a lot stronger in the offseason, I agree, he won't be around much longer.

[Bifflog]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'd be surprised if Daniels even makes the team. 

 

I think this is a common opinion about any and all of Ron's guys, but the odds are at least one of these types is gonna flip the script and turn out to be far far better under the new staff.  Having it be one of the o-line guys would be pretty sweet.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Bifflog said:

 

I think this is a common opinion about any and all of Ron's guys, but the odds are at least one of these types is gonna flip the script and turn out to be far far better under the new staff.  Having it be one of the o-line guys would be pretty sweet.

I think Strom finds a home with us. I think Forbes is going to have a great year, same with Juste.

 

I even think Wylie will be better and I'm probably his biggest hater.

 

Daniels is short armed and dumb. He most likely should have been an UDFA at best, but Ron wanted a OT and even though he totally missed the boat, he wasted a pick on a bad one.

 

We probably should have taken Carter Warren, who went 2 picks late and is a prototypical OT. I'd have gone Herbig fwiw.

[Going Commando]

Coleman's doesn't have the pass pro chops to hang at tackle in the NFL.  TCU tried to cover up his limitations in NFL style pass pro reps (where he is one on one with a decent edge and has to vertical set) as much as they could, but when they faced obvious passing downs where there was a four man rush and no chance to double, he struggled.  The Big 12 CG in 2022 is a pretty clear demonstration of this, particularly when he had to face Felix Uzomah (who is a very mid NFL edge prospect).  They spent the first half covering up Coleman with doubles and using RPOs to slow the rush, and K St obliged by mostly playing 8 man coverages on passing downs.  Then all Hell started breaking loose for Coleman in the second half when K St started sending 4+ and they had to play catch up and got into a bunch of second and third and longs.  Here are some gifs demonstrating his issues:

 

 

Third and seven where he's on an island against Uzomah.  K St runs a blitz that leaves Coleman without help in pass pro for one of the first times in the game.  Uzomah smokes him with a speed rush and turns a super flat corner on him without even getting NFL caliber lean on the rush.  Coleman's set is terrible, his hand placement is terrible (tries to catch him late and Uzomah doesn't even have to rip through him), his pads are super high, and his feet get super heavy and die at the point of contact.

 

 

Second and seven, TCU runs an RPO with a combo block for Coleman, and one step drop for the slant.  This is what I mean by TCU protecting him as much as possible.  But notice the way he still loses this rep: wide hands and high pads leave him leaning and super easy to shuck when rushers counter back inside.  He is so weak against inside counters that he's just not going to be able hang in pass pro at tackle.  TCU did everything they could to cover him up on this play, the run fake worked perfectly and got the linebackers and safeties playing up, and the play still got sped up and broken up.

 

 

Another third and 10 where Coleman has to play on an island against a speed rush, and a bad set with bad hands leads to a hold.  The edge got a super slow jump off the snap too.

 

 

First and 20, down by 11 in the fourth, obvious passing situation and K St blitzes.  Another terrible set and punch (high pads and hand placement, that was an uncalled hands to the face) causes him to lose to another basic inside counter.  Play gets sped up and Duggan took another huge hit.

 

 

Another third and long where Coleman has to play on an island against a speed rush and he just loses immediately.  I don't know how else to say it, but his pass pro sets are not NFL caliber for playing on the outside, and his hands are god awful.  He's also really stiff, and does not have the lateral speed to play on an island without oversetting like Hell and getting smoked back inside by counters.

 

 

Just as a bonus gif, I wanted to show how his balance issues and heavy feet into contact can cause problems with block sustain in the run game.  In general, he is way better in the run game than the pass game.  But he's more competent than dominant as a run blocker.  Cooper Beebe is what a dominant run blocker looks like.  Beebe is who we should have picked at 67.

 

Playing Coleman at tackle this year is setting him up for failure.  His best shot at holding his own for us is at LG.

[The Consigliere]

Needless to say, these takes underline one of the many reasons I argue these guys don't know as much as we think they do. There are plenty of FO's run in year in and year out that are either clueless, or a net nothing (positive or negative) in the draft. How much of success is blind luck is worth considering. Did Billichek suddenly just suck? Was he lucky? Was it Brady Cheat Code? Was it that we have coachcentric analysis when it should be player centric? Not sure, but if the take on Ron is that he's a dolt who basically came in to the war room grunting about ----- linebackers and WR's with bad hands, and moaning about Gibson having Larry Brown hands, well, what are we doing here? 

 

The Genius McCloughan comes in, and our draft haul that year is as crappy as it usually is...and? I don't know. I'm really torn about whether to think some guys are geniuses, or just lucky. Hell quite a few people lookng at the niners draft two weeks ago are already saying, "man, the last few niners drafts sucked". The last few? Really? What does that mean: re: Peters?

 

I agree w/the general sentiment that Ron sucked. I also find it funny that he actually did somewhat well on day 3 landing several starters (Howell, Curl, Forest kinda and Bates kinda) and 6 guys on day 2 of interest (Cosmi, St. Juste, B Rob, Stromberg, Gibson, and Quan Martin's intriguing (I liked Charles even if nothing seemed to come of it)...and yet was utterly hopeless in round 1, just grand mal stupid, and obviously so as well: Chase Young? I was against it, but at least you could understand it, but after that Jamin Davis over trading down for him or JOK was so epic stupid it is still mind boggling, the following year he takes a classic #2/small slot guy inside the top 20. Like seriously? I don't even think Dotson sucks. He's fine, he's just not special and there was nothing about him that said special meanwhile they're taking him while sandwiched around classes just talent rich in #1 stud WRs, obvious #1 types...its just so confusing. Then as if '22 wasn't bad enough, there's Christian Gonzalez falling in your lap or a trade down, and what do you do, you take Forbes because your idiot DC whose on a short leash wants him?!??! 

 

Just baffled, so baffled looking at all this.

 

As for the Coleman vs whatever talk, like SIP, I am completely fine with it.

 

We tried to move up, possibly for OT, or for someone else (there seems to be a rumor implying the latter), the entire tier 1 cohort got swept up by the cowboys trade down to 29, meaning they were probably going to all be gone even earlier...so we were looking at tier 2, and as previously mentioned, not a single OT was taken between 29 and 54, not one, so we were smart to move down, and we got a guy who can play Guard and Tackle, instead of a straight OT prospect, which means he has 4 outs to pull utility out of him when we have a line with holes at both OT and Guard. It's a totally sensible pick and one that was on an upside prospect, and on top of that, as SIP mentioned, if dude was playing on a busted ankle all year, well, that explains a lot (and doesn't take into other elucidating narratives at that).

 

 

Despite the gloomy cynicism above, I'm feeling pretty good. We have no evidence yet that these guys are clowns or idiots, that evidence came early with ron, and with all Snyder hires save Shanny (who just seemed like a total ---head), so I'm feeling quite hopeful moving forward. My only concern is we took the wrong QB, but even there, there's some solace in that practically everyone smart disagrees with me, and supposedly our backup choice was even stupider, so at least there's that. If Daniels hits, btw, as mentioned previously, nothing else matters much at all considering the transformative impact of a QB hit. If we hit on him, we can be league average at everything else and be a contender. Look at pennypinching Cincy, dumb as hell, utterly hopeless, scummy, but w/average Dalton they were contenders, and they were instant super bowl threats with Burrow. Same here. We hit with Daniels, against my takes, it will be awesome, and with Peters track record, we should be able to build at least adequate talent around him. 

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

Playing Coleman at tackle this year is setting him up for failure.  His best shot at holding his own for us is at LG.

We drafted Coleman to play LT and brought a superbowl winner in to play LG. That’s the plan.

[method man]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

We drafted Coleman to play LT and brought a superbowl winner in to play LG. That’s the plan.

I may have misheard Sikkema on Take Command but I believe he said he’s talked to folks in DC and they don’t see him stepping in Day 1 to be a starter

 

Off topic but Sikkena’s other great observation was that Newton played 700 snaps vs Murphy who played ~400. Addresses the remark in the other thread for why his “effort” was up and down

[Skinsinparadise]

Coleman blocking on an island,  heck this is every rep in the first 3 minutes of the game.   He's #77.  Held his own easily.  On the first one he almost pulls off blocking two guys himself, his assignment and a blitzer.

 

For example, Kingsley when I watched him I thought was a hot mess at times, not always but at times.  Others liked him here before the draft, touting his raw ability and potential.  I get it.  That's how I felt about Paul.   Same idea here.  Coleman is a freak, too.  Coleman with a better RAS thatn Kinglsey and Paul, elite numbers.

 

You got me if Coleman is a LT, I've talked about his strengths and weaknesses from my point of view.  And from my point of view I think his skills translate VERY well to guard -- a high end guard.  Tackle feels more of a wildcard.  But I am not the definitive word on this.  Will see how he looks in camp.

 

 

 

Edited May 10 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Coleman as I mentioned I like him better at guard than tackle.  But I get them trying tackle in camp. That's part of the point of having a camp in the first place, you experiement and see.  He was a highly graded tackle from PFF.   He was mostly fine in the 2 games I now watched of him at tackle.  Can be sloppy with his hands, and struggles IMO with lateral movement.   

 

But he wan't a hot mess at the spot at least not in those games. And if he has a high grade for the season from PFF, I seriously doubt he was a hot mess for that season and was likely much closer to good than bad. PFF has access to all the games, we don't.

 

But again with the 2nd tier type tackles to me they were all works in progress.  Can they fine tune Coleman at tackle?  Maybe?  I don't know. 

 

The criticism I've made and saw some agreement on a scouting report on Coleman is his lateral ability.  He's a move forward-north to south type of guy more from my watching than east to west hence my concern at tackle.  But he's a good enough athlete -- speed, power, agility that maybe that east-west ability can be developed.  I am not an O line coach so you got me if they can or can't.  Will see. 

 

But I really dig him as a potential high end guard.  Not just a guy at guard but a really good one. 

 

His hands and anchor IMO are strong and am far from on an island on this, I believe he has the biggest hands in this class or close enough, I can post 50 posts like the ones below. And his not just a good athlete for the spot but he's historically good for the spot -- freak doesn't sum it up.  He was on Feldman's freak list.

 

Massive upper body, massive strong hands, long arms, freak athlete.  For the early 3rd round, I think that's a very good gamble from Peters.  Again, this isn't Peters cherry picking the best of the best in the top 10.  The 3rd round is worse than a wildcard round, more players fail than succeed from that round.  Bet on upside. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10 by Skinsinparadise