2023 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Darth Tater]

3 hours ago, mhd24 said:

I'd add CB to that list.  We have nothing behind BSJ (who has injury issues) and an aging Fuller (more of a zone CB now).  Minnesota (with a terrible defense) cut Dantzler.  Christian Holmes cost us the Giants game last year.  We have to take CB early in the draft.  

I would like to create more TOs, we were near the bottom last year in that category and had the worst average starting field position (part of that is due to lack of turnovers). We also improve that starting position with improvement in the return game and that usually means a DB or a WR (and these guys need to also be at least a legit 4 or a 5 on the scrimmage side).

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

[mh86]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Save the best for last. Sometimes that last interview sticks

[Darth Tater]

3 hours ago, RWJ said:

We did business with them last year and may do it again.  Who knows.  It's hard to see them moving up to #16 for Hooker but stranger things have happened.  I meant to tell you also we might have to stick at #16 as Pitt might want Wright at #17 below us.  

When we did business, there was a lot of noise that we were targeting Olave and turned it into Dotson (who, based on post draft reports we were really targeting but you got to take that with a grain of salt). Might end up as Dotson, Robinson and a bit of Howell came to us.

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Saints could be trade up partner and they typically like to trade up

 

I don't buy them having interest in Hooker at all, given the contract they just gave to Derek Carr.  That's 100 million guaranteed for him, they're not flushing that to pick Hooker.

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, mh86 said:

Save the best for last. Sometimes that last interview sticks

Hopefully so.  Stromberg would be a good get 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Chump Bailey]

55 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Jacoby should not be given the keys as he's one and done and will get us to around 500 at least. Sam either will probably either prove himself or we will likely be in position to at least make a big-time move. What I would love is if a big-name QB falls, we make enough noise that we might go that way and Minnesota gives us a sweetheart package of picks for 2024 that we use to make a big move in 2024 (if needed) or have lots of picks stockpiled.

 

Jacoby and Sam will both be given a chance to win the job and whichever does, should be given a legitimate chance to keep it. I do agree with the trade-down part. 

2 hours ago, samy316 said:

 

I think if Levis is there for them at 16, it's going to be very difficult to not grab him, or at least think about it.  Levis is an uber talented QB, from what I've seen, and he would be someone I'd draft, all things considered.  I understand the hesitation if he does last to 16.  It must mean that the other GM's aren't enamored with his tools.  It's too bad Richardson is going Top 5, because I'd pull the trigger on drafting him without any hesitation.  Richardson's ceiling his higher than any QB's ceiling in this draft, if he goes to the right team and the right system.  Hendon Hooker is an extremely interesting prospect.  He looks like Jalen Hurts, in the way that he plays.  If Hooker was available in Rd. 2, I'd definitely draft him.  Rd. 1 is tough, because I don't think he's a Rd. 1 QB, and it might be a bit of a reach to get him at 16.  If we were able to trade back into the end of Rd. 1 or have an early Rd. 2 pick, I'd definitely draft Hooker.

 

I'm not sure what we would do if that scenario occurs. My personal opinion is that I would take an offer to trade down, give the QB's we have on the roster a shot for a season, and then go big next season when the talent pool for QB's will be much deeper.

[Skinsinparadise]

Soelle visiting was mentioned here before. 

 

Kyle Soelle,110 tackles, 6 '3, 231 LB.  Team captain, high character, smart from what I've read.  PFF and Brugler don't even have him ranked.  But this team among others have him coming for pro day visits. 

 

Watched 2 games.  He has decent size-speed.  Not an old school stack and shed LB.  You need to keep him clean otherwise he gets swallowed by O lineman.  He reminded me some of Cody Barton's college tape -- at least the one college game I watched after Washington signed him.  He's almost the identical size of Barton, too.   Barton reminded me some of Holcomb.  Soelle IMO is in that variety of a player.  Similar style.  Similar athleticism.  Maybe he ends up better than Holcomb -- because Holcomb often seems a beat behind the play.  Soelle not so much.

 

Intriguing as a late round LB.  

 

Solid player -- nothing really jumps out in a big way except for he has no obvious negatives to my eyes. What stood out to me is play recognition, he finds himself in the thick of action both against the run and pass.  Finds his way to the ball.  He is a sound tackler in the games i watched, wraps up well, goes low. 

 

Good sideline to sideline range -- not great but good.   Seems to have a good feel for guessing run versus pass.  Backpeddles quickly based on the formation when he assumes pass and from what I can see he guesses right most of the time.   As a pass rusher, nothing stood out, didn't though see him do it much -- he's the typical LB style of dart at the QB in a straight line and hope to run by the O lineman.

 

Overall, I could see their interest in him.  High floor in the context of a late round version of what a high floor player is -- special teams, I presume backup LB who has a good shot in developing into a starter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But Gonzales’ backhanded compliments of Soelle are his way of praising the sophomore linebacker’s ability to master the intricacies of the 3-3-5 defense, to always put himself in the right place at the right time, to continuously make plays despite his perceived athletic limitations.

 

It, maybe, just doesn’t come out that way.

 

“He’s really smart,” linebacker Khaylan Kearse-Thomas said of Soelle. “He doesn’t waste any type of time, space. His footwork, everything is great. He’s really technical. If you do everything right, it shows -- and that’s one guy, he does everything right.”

 

Now, Soelle is 6-foot-3 and a lean 225 pounds. He shifts around offensive linemen with hardly any false steps. He’s strong, too, able to bully most running backs coming at him or wide receivers catching a quick slant.

 

But he’s maybe not the prototypical linebacker for Gonzales’ 3-3-5 defense, a scheme where he doesn’t always get to flash his most athletic qualities.

 

You see, Soelle was recruited by former ASU defensive coordinator Phil Bennett during the back-end of Todd Graham’s tenure in Tempe. One day during Soelle’s freshman season at ASU, then-linebackers coach Keith Patterson attended a Saguaro practice. He pulled Mohns aside to provide him an update on Soelle, who Patterson compared to a linebacker he formerly coached who went on to have great success in the NFL.

 

“He said, ‘We love Kyle.’” Mohns recalled of his conversation with Patterson. “He just said, ‘I think this kid if he sticks with it, he has a chance to play (in the NFL).’ They were really high on him.”

 

In Graham’s flex 4-3 defense, Soelle was the perfect linebacker. The coaches loved him. He felt good about the way he fit into the scheme. Things were looking up. Then, in December 2017, Graham was fired. The staff that trusted and had high hopes for Soelle vanished.

 

“He had to kind of start from scratch,” Mohns said. “Kyle had to kind of start back from the bottom and prove himself to guys that didn’t recruit him. They didn’t necessarily know what his skill set was and how hit fit into that scheme.”

 

*****

 

Mohns offers most of his seniors at Saguaro -- sorry, Sag U -- the same message about their new collegiate venture. Control the things you can control and get to the point where you force the coaches to play you.

 

“Maybe they didn’t recruit you. Maybe they have other guys above you,” Mohns said. “I don’t care where you are if you consistently show up and make plays coaches are going to take notice and you will get an opportunity.”

 

After playing nine games his redshirt freshman season last year -- recording nine tackles and four quarterback hurries, according to Pro Football Focus -- Soelle is ASU’s No. 4 linebacker heading into Thursday’s game against Kent State. In essence, he forced ASU’s coaches to play him.

 

Over the course of the last two years, Soelle didn’t dwell on his puzzle-piece fit under ASU’s old staff. He took coaching and advice from linebackers coach Antonio Pierce. He adjusted his game to better fit his new scheme. And he dove into film and sought out to master everything he could control.

 

“You can only get so many reps, but mental reps, if you know the play before it even happens, you’re going to be there a lot faster,” Soelle said. “It allows you to play quicker and faster and do the right technique.”

 

https://arizonastate.rivals.com/news/after-proving-himself-under-a-new-staff-soelle-evolves-into-an-elite-lb

[Darth Tater]

2 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

Jacoby and Sam will both be given a chance to win the job and whichever does, should be given a legitimate chance to keep it. I do agree with the trade-down part. 

And that'd be my worry.  Jacoby will not suck (7-9 wins) but is 1 and done and likely won't be great. We probably won't be in a position in 2024 to make a big swing. Sam might be great, might be mediocre (7-9 wins) but, unlike Jacoby, he could suck. Would much prefer a suck starter who will put us in position to take the big 2024 swing than a mediocre one and done guy who won't leave us with that option. Further, if Sam just does mediocre, he's still in play.

 

Also, I personally prefer the 'good all 22' strategy as opposed to the 'Elite and 21 scrubs' strategy but that is my own preference based on desire to maximize fun for me not a claim of which one is actually more productive.

[Est.1974]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Stromberg will not last long in this draft with upwards of 5 or 6 teams looking for starting centers.

[Est.1974]

Have a feeling this guy is our first choice :
 

 

[Rex Tomb]

I would be psyched if we went OT and Guard/C with our first two picks.  Then BPA rest of the way.

[Rex Tomb]

25 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Have a feeling this guy is our first choice :
 

 

Meaning first round pick? Or first for centers specifically?

[Est.1974]

6 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

Meaning first round pick? Or first for centers specifically?

Interior OL choice

[The Consigliere]

On 4/11/2023 at 6:51 AM, Going Commando said:

IMO Young, Stroud, and at least one of Hooker, Richardson, or Levis (my bet is on Hooker or Levis) will become star QBs in the NFL.  This kind of feels like the 2017 QB class where the prospects were much stronger than people realized/acknowledged at the time, in part because they were looking ahead to a much more hyped 2018 class that ended up being worse than anticipated.

 

By any measure, this RB class is strong.  I think it's the best RB class in years, with four legit top 50 players: Gibbs/Robinson/Charbonnet/Spears and four more top 80: Abinakanda/McBride/Achane/Gray.  I also think the mid to late rounds are going to yield strong rotation backs: Roschon/Bigsby/Miller/Evans/Ibrahim.  And I think the most talented and explosive back in the class in Deuce Vaughn has star potential in the right situation, and he's a sixth rounder.  I love this RB class.

 

Tight end is also loaded.  We've come a long way from that 2020 nadir.

 

On the whole, the defensive players are way better than the offensive players this year.  The DBs clearly outclass the receivers, and the DLs absolutely smoke all but a couple of the OLs.  But there are stars on offense to be had at the skill positions.

 

I'd quibble, in some cases a lot.

 

QB's never hit at that rate no matter the class. Even some classes like '83 had a Todd Blackledge and a Tony Eason. I was irate as hell about us trading for Brad Johnson in '99, hyped as I was on Tim Couch, and Daunte Culpepper in particular, less enamoured with McNabb, the only hit of the much ballyhooed class, but at least I sniffed out Cade McCown as a guaranteed bust. '04 did actually hit, all 3 of them, a rare exception but a few years later and nobody was happy with any of the big 3 of the famed '06 class (Vince Young, Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler), '12 was probably better loved than any of those, but in the end, after Luck it was a pile of misses, RGIII, Brandon Weeden, Tannehill, Brock Lobster, Foles etc. Only Wilson and Luck really hit. Tannehill followed that poor man's Jim Plunkett path of stinking for his draft team but becoming reasonably good later (Plunkett far better of course). 

 

Basically, I find it nearly impossible to believe it will have that kind of hit rate. It's mathematically possible, if you put all prospects across multiple years in a pile, you can have years where an unusually high percentage hit, '83 was like ridiculous: Elway, Marino, Kelly, O'Brien all hits, only 1 full bust (Blackledge) and 1 partial (Eason), so was 2004, but usually it's 40-60% hit rates. I'm skeptical this will be different, and concerned in that none of these guys offer dual threat abilities other than Richardson whose super raw, both CJ and Young look like pocket guys (CJ might have hidden upside), Levis is iffy, Hooker is iffy in general. I expect at least half the guys to miss as per usual, I do think the floors with CJ and Young seem high, we'll see. 

 

RB's: It's not an elite class in the sense of '17, and '20, which had a lot of potential high end prospect talent, it's instead, uniquely deep in third tier guys. I can't recall a time, maybe 2017, where I saw so many RB's with grades by most scouts and analytics people that put them in the zone between 30th-120th. There is just a gigantic pile of guys that would typically go in rounds 2, 3 and 4 (maybe early 5th). Far, far, far more than normal. It's incredibly deep. But the cream sucks. You've got Bijan with an everydown skill set, maybe his backup who could be a steal late (R. Johnson), and nada beyond that in terms of elite talent. There are guys I like, and who may become that, Charbonnet's got his fans, and I was one, when he was cheaper, but is elite in the way guys like Chubb, Saquon, McCaffrey, Mixon, Cook (Kamara was more a surprise), Taylor, Swift, Dobbins, Etienne, Najee (too old for me but still) were elite? I don't see it. I love Gibbs, but he's a very specific RB. I like Charbonnet, but he's nowhere close to the profile of those other guys. It's basically a deep class with one borderline generational talent in Gibbs, a sneaky value guy in Johnson, and a ton of guys who are basically good enough to man a committee or be an adequate stop gap starter until you find a truly elite guy. Basically a lot of guys with the ceiling of our guy we drafted last year, which is nice, but not difference making unless they explode to become far more than initially expected (like a Kamara). 

 

Agreed on TE, there isn't generational talent, or hyper elite talent from what I can tell but an absolute ton of guys with good to very good grades. 

 

WR stinks. Its the worst WR class i've seen since probably 2016, it's got more top end talent than '16 which was utterly bereft, but even the top end isn't high ceiling in the way top end WR talent was in 2018-2022, and the bottom falls out real quickly into basically fourth tier options. So if you want a WR you probably should get one in the top 50 or 60 because after that there aint any value to speak of until day 3 and even that value aint much. 

 

 

I can't speak to defense other than supposedly CB being good, I pay attention to playmakers for dynasty reasons. 

 

I've been kind of passive w/the WFT for this draft because I didnt get the sense we were doing anything that really grabbed me, I didnt like the draft to begin with and am not someone who can evaluate OL or CB play anyway beyond developing a reasonable "feel" based on other people's evals. 

 

Hopefully they can nail OL help because being able to evaluate Howell properly is really the only critical thing about this season to me. If he hits a triple or a home run, it opens a ton of possibilities, if he fails, or if the eval is compromised by cluster injuries to the OL or more crap OL play, than the season is lost in all ways, even evaluative value. 

 

Quite an interesting offseason in that sense, but one that's really unusual because it is so very contingent on nebulous qualities, rather than really specific stuff. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[method man]

 

Greg McElroy was asked this question on Keim's podcast and he said he'd put Howell behind the big 4 and on a similar tier as Hooker, McKee and the next set of QBs. I personally rank him ahead of Levis. Levis has size on Howell and has played in a pro system the past two years but he hasn't had a season like Howell's 2021 season and is an older prospect at 23.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

Have a feeling this guy is our first choice :

 

 

 

could be especially since he plays both C-G.  And they've poked around on him plenty.

 

But if they do take a tackle in the first as most predict, wonder if they go O line back to back picks.  But as Keim seems to imply if they trade down it opens things up. 

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

My favorite OL overhaul would be trading 16 to the Saints for 29 and 40. 

 

Yes, we need a CB and LB, but would be really tough to talk me out of a best case scenario that would net us:

29 OT Anton Harrison

40 OC John Michael Schmitz

47 TE Darnell Washington

 

This team has hit on mid-round (3rd or later) CBs and Safeties before. Take some fliers later. We can/will have weak spots. We didn't lose much in the DB room this off-season, adding Dantzler to the mix. I think I'd be okay grabbing a R3 or R4 CB and Safety to round out the group. But bolstering the OL (and blocking via Darnell Washington's blocking abilities) would be MY priority if the plan is truly to build up Sam Howell. Focus on making that OL stout. The defense will be fine with mid to late round additions. LB has been a hole for years, and we consistently fail to address it, so another mid-round pick there works too. That said, something like this would be nice to round it out ....

 

97 CB Eli Ricks

118 LB / DE Nick Hampton

150 S Trey Dean

165 RB Deuce Vaughn

215 K Noah Ruggles

233 Name your PS QB

 

I was tempted to take G Andrew Horhees over Vaughn at 165 to redshirt him as a longterm solution at OG, but at that point you've got yourself more than set with that OL for the next year. (I moved up in R6 as part of the pick swap in R6 with the Saints trade down).

 

LT: Leno

LG: Wylie, Gates

OC: JMS, Gates

RG: Cosmi, Charles

RT: Harrison, Lucas

 

Cut Roullier and Logan Thomas and free up some cap space.

Edited April 19, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins

[The Consigliere]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:02 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

When I watched him, didn't like him as a tackle, but loved his upside as a guard and said then, I think this is Brandon Scherff.  It was cool for me to hear Greg Cosell go through the O line prospects recently and used the same comparison, Brandon Scherff.  I don't always agree with Cosell but he's been one of my favs as to draft coverage over the years.

 

Is Brandon Scherff worth pick 16?  Some here would say no.  I say yes.   I want to trade down though desperately so its not an easy call for me -- but for the moment on the off chance he or Paris Johnson or Witherpoon fall to 16 I'd be tempted to forgo the trade down, but I'd be torn especially if i got a great offer.

 

My whole complaint about that pick back in the day was that it was a reach and that Leonard Williams represented more positional and draft capital value. Their careers have kind of sat in a similar place, with both turning into good but not great players and turning in periodic blech type seasons as well. Williams never became what I'd hoped, and Scherff didn't hit the heights his scout fans figured would happen at Guard, he became "good", but not HOF or near HOF good, maybe injuries played a role.

 

But if Scherff had been taken at 16, I'd have been far more forgiving. If we got a guy w/that kind of upside in the teens, I'd definitely do it, period. It does represent if not a value, perfectly reasonable use of draft capital, especially if the player can stay healthy and play closer to ceiling expectations especially in a middling to subpar draft class. 

[KDawg]

Stromberg may be the guy I want most in this draft.

[mh86]

31 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

My favorite OL overhaul would be trading 16 to the Saints for 29 and 40. 

 

Yes, we need a CB and LB, but would be really tough to talk me out of a best case scenario that would net us:

29 OT Anton Harrison

40 OC John Michael Schmitz

47 TE Darnell Washington

 

This team has hit on mid-round (3rd or later) CBs and Safeties before. Take some fliers later. We can/will have weak spots. We didn't lose much in the DB room this off-season, adding Dantzler to the mix. I think I'd be okay grabbing a R3 or R4 CB and Safety to round out the group. But bolstering the OL (and blocking via Darnell Washington's blocking abilities) would be MY priority if the plan is truly to build up Sam Howell. Focus on making that OL stout. The defense will be fine with mid to late round additions. LB has been a hole for years, and we consistently fail to address it, so another mid-round pick there works too. That said, something like this would be nice to round it out ....

 

97 CB Eli Ricks

118 LB / DE Nick Hampton

150 S Trey Dean

165 RB Deuce Vaughn

215 K Noah Ruggles

233 Name your PS QB

 

I was tempted to take G Andrew Horhees over Vaughn at 165 to redshirt him as a longterm solution at OG, but at that point you've got yourself more than set with that OL for the next year. (I moved up in R6 as part of the pick swap in R6 with the Saints trade down).

 

LT: Leno

LG: Wylie, Gates

OC: JMS, Gates

RG: Cosmi, Charles

RT: Harrison, Lucas

 

Cut Roullier and Logan Thomas and free up some cap space.

I agree with most of what you said, but I wouldn’t expect much from dantzler. I have some Vikings buddies who were very glad to see him gone.

[Warhead36]

Would love a C in the 2nd round. Its low key evolved into possibly the 2nd most important position on offense and there are some good prospects that should be available at 47.

 

I'd be fully okay with OT in the 1st and C in the 2nd. Imagine an OL of Leno - Wylie - Rookie C - Cosmi - Rookie RT. All of a sudden the OL goes from weakness to strength and is also salary efficient with two starters on rookie contracts. Gates and Lucas give us really good depth at T and G and we only need one of Roullier or Larsen to return from injury to be the backup C.

48 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

My favorite OL overhaul would be trading 16 to the Saints for 29 and 40. 

 

Yes, we need a CB and LB, but would be really tough to talk me out of a best case scenario that would net us:

29 OT Anton Harrison

40 OC John Michael Schmitz

47 TE Darnell Washington

Would be thrilled with Harrison and JMS but would prefer a bit more polished TE than Washington. Perhaps Laporta or Musgrave instead. 

16 minutes ago, mh86 said:

I agree with most of what you said, but I wouldn’t expect much from dantzler. I have some Vikings buddies who were very glad to see him gone.

CBs are a very volatile position. Guys who are good one year can suck the next year and vice versa. Remember all the Philly fans trashing Ronald Darby when we signed him in 2020? He ended up balling out, earning a big contract with Denver...and then revert back to sucking. 

 

Not saying Dantzler will suddenly be good here, but our coaching staff has a real good track record with DBs. Other than William Jackson(who really just might be the lowest IQ player in NFL history)all our DBs have looked at the very least pretty solid and some of the young ones have developed quite nicely. This is why I wouldn't mind selecting someone like Ringo in the 2nd round, with this staff he could blossom into a star.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Warhead36

[mh86]

10 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Would love a C in the 2nd round. Its low key evolved into possibly the 2nd most important position on offense and there are some good prospects that should be available at 47.

 

I'd be fully okay with OT in the 1st and C in the 2nd. Imagine an OL of Leno - Wylie - Rookie C - Cosmi - Rookie RT. All of a sudden the OL goes from weakness to strength and is also salary efficient with two starters on rookie contracts. Gates and Lucas give us really good depth at T and G and we only need one of Roullier or Larsen to return from injury to be the backup C.

Would be thrilled with Harrison and JMS but would prefer a bit more polished TE than Washington. Perhaps Laporta or Musgrave instead. 

CBs are a very volatile position. Guys who are good one year can suck the next year and vice versa. Remember all the Philly fans trashing Ronald Darby when we signed him in 2020? He ended up balling out, earning a big contract with Denver...and then revert back to sucking. 

 

Not saying Dantzler will suddenly be good here, but our coaching staff has a real good track record with DBs. Other than William Jackson(who really just might be the lowest IQ player in NFL history)all our DBs have looked at the very least pretty solid and some of the young ones have developed quite nicely. This is why I wouldn't mind selecting someone like Ringo in the 2nd round, with this staff he could blossom into a star.

I agree that the team seems to do well at the corner position and about selecting one in the second. However, it was more in response to selecting one with our third, because we don’t have much drop off this year and added dantzler. While I have no idea if dantzler will be good or not, I do know that fuller isn’t some A tier corner and assuming he can stay healthy, juste is young with potential. I don’t think fuller is worth bringing back unless it’s a really team friendly deal and so I would prefer we add someone early in hopes to compliment and eventually become his replacement. Either way I’ll be excited about who we draft.