Renegade7 Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Larry said: Why not? If we don't "move the goalposts", then this last week of war crimes had zero cost. If they were occupying Kiev, his negotiating position would change. So how come it can't change when he's losing? This isn't about war crimes, this is preventing the war and now ending the war. The focus should be in ending the war to help stop the war crimes from continuing. I'd support a different round of sanctions if Russia uses chemical weapons, but would those stay in place if Russia stops their invasion and leaves? That's a different t conversation that hopefully we aren't forced into having, we aren't there yet. Call me when he's actually occupying Kiev and installing his puppet president, because while we are in danger of the sanctions still being in place after Ukraine has lost the war, we aren't there yet and should not be fast forwarding to that point for negotiation purposes. Again, we aren't there yet. The sanctions need to stay about what Russia is doing so its clear if they stop doing that the sanctions can be lifted. Keeping them in place because of who they are...what is the measurable change one would seek at that point and the possibility of even getting that? Does anyone really think Putin will resign if he withdrawls and the international community says now sanctions won't be lifted until he resigns? No, he like their entire country will say "hold up, what are yall going to demand next, our nukes?" We need to be very clear about the conditions to lift these sanctions otherwise they'll stop trusting us to ever lift them and could go forward in "F it" mode. I've said this before, others have said this, and I'll say it again, we should not repeate history and Treaty of Versailles here, the person after Putin could be worse. Edited March 19, 2022 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Peregrine said: No, the sanctions were to tell Russia it needed to not invade, and then end the invasion immediately, and that the destruction caused by the sanctions would be based on how much destruction Russia caused. As Russia has decided to go further and further into this they blitzed past where those sanctions can be lifted for years. Any letting Russia withdraw tomorrow, and then lifting the sanctions before it truly crippling the current Russian state would be selling out the entire world to a bleak future. The rest of the world lacking backbone is the ONLY thing Putin is counting on at this point. Russia as it currently exists, can no longer be part of this world. Most everyone sees that. Fail to cause major nation state change in the coming years in Russia and the world will most likely end up in a nuclear holocaust within a decade. Any people who would subject the world earth to the threat of complete destruction if they are not allowed to murder as many women and children as they like are not fit to be part of this earth and have no place here. I would make turning Putin over to The Hague a precondition for lifting sanctions. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 45 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Biden seems to realize a lot of country is seeing through the BS of rising prices beyond necessity in this country and attacking it directly. If this does drag into the growing season for Ukraine and Russia, he has to keep it up and also double down to protect us. By "US" I believe you think "United States". We do have a problem then, as I said, it'll be free for all. Just like early covid medical stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 34 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Does anyone really think Putin will resign if he withdrawls and the international community says now sanctions won't be lifted until he resigns? No, he like their entire country will say "hold up, what are yall going to demand next, our nukes?" Nukes will have to be on the table. It doesn't matter if we aren't there yet. Our leaders have to think about "what next". We must already have a plan for that. And sure it must not be like 1919, but that will be only doable if we get Russia within western mode, not outside of it. And for that you need a pro western president there. Nothing else. Now if we lift sanctions as soon as he goes out, well, OK, he'll know that he'll be able to do the same thing elsewhere, eat sanctions for a month or two until he gets his military victory, then move back. We played it badly from the beginning. This should have never come down to this. Because we've set the tone for the decades to come as: "I've got nukes and I can do whatever I want because of that." If that stuff lingers until there's a shortage of food, you can expect countries lifting sanctions so they buy wheat from Russia and their people don't starve. Putin is acting like this high school guy terrorizing everyone in school because he's stronger than everyone. He'll never stop doing it until you punch him in the mouth so hard that he'll remember not to mess with you again. That's how we should play it now. Tells him to stop or we'll send him back to Prehistorian era for a long time. Give him 3 days to retreat, call it quits and beg pardon from Ukrainians. Otherwise, he'll go down in history as the guy that sinked Russia. That's how we stopped him after Crimea. That's the only way you can deal with a guy like him. You punch him in the mouth, then you talk about stopping. Then we'll start talking about removing sanctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 @WildbunnyRussia will never give up their nukes as a deterent against the United States, neither will China nor North Korea. Be realistic. 18 minutes ago, Wildbunny said: By "US" I believe you think "United States". We do have a problem then, as I said, it'll be free for all. Just like early covid medical stuff. Biden has more say and power over methods to prevent hoarding and panic buying in the US then other countries. I can't speak for what he can do for other countries in context of what other countires should be doing to protect themselves. We still have time to talk about it and get ahead of it, but not a lot (3-6 months, tops) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: @WildbunnyRussia will never give up their nukes as a deterent against the United States, neither will China nor North Korea. Be realistic. In the 80s, there was around 70k nukes all over the world. Now there's only 14k. So that can be done. No need to have thousands of it. There just needs to be guys on both side of the table that want to make it happen and be clear about it. If one of them is playing with a hand in the back and thinking about ****ing the other up, sure that's not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 10 minutes ago, Wildbunny said: In the 80s, there was around 70k nukes all over the world. Now there's only 14k. So that can be done. No need to have thousands of it. There just needs to be guys on both side of the table that want to make it happen and be clear about it. If one of them is playing with a hand in the back and thinking about ****ing the other up, sure that's not gonna happen. Reducing nukes is not the same as getting rid of them, completely different conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Reducing nukes is not the same as getting rid of them, completely different conversation. That's a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Wildbunny said: That's a start. As a separate conversation from the sanctions to end this invasion of Ukraine, sure, but i don't agree with trying to tie that together. Russia won't agree to reducing only their stockpile, trying to get everyone on same page for another reduction could take a while. Priority #1 needs to be stopping what Russia is doing right now, not what they could do in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Almighty Buzz said: I would make turning Putin over to The Hague a precondition for lifting sanctions. After some thought... If Putin uses chemical weapons on Ukraine, I'll deeply consider keeping the sanctions in place until the invasion is called off AND Russia gives Putin to UN to be tried for war crimes. Having said that, how would that work? His own government give him to be held in what jail? I've heard of countries having extradition clauses with each other, but where does the UN fit into that? Have we ever done that before? This sounds good, but what if Russia says they won't turn him over or there's jus too many loyalist left and they cant? That's my biggest concern with that new goal post to end the sanctions. Edited March 19, 2022 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 23 minutes ago, China said: Bosnia's ambassador does not point out that "Ukraine's fate" happened because they did not join NATO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballZombie Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Russia using their new hypersonic missiles are a major development. The US is gonna glean every bit of intel they can to help create missile defense systems that are specifically designed to stop them. The fact that we are already able to track them is a great foundation too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Daily cost of Ukraine war likely to exceed $20B for Russia: Study Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Would not be shocked to see this guy in Congress in a few years. Seriously… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Wow. Because its Saturday afternoon and I have nothing better to do I watched half of the video posted. He got a lot of cheers for the anti-politician rants and insinuating they gave all our money to corporations during COVID. The article I read excised him going full anti-vax / COVID denialism, which he went to. Something like, "everyone in this room got COVID and lived, they told us to get shots that didnt work and mask wearing didn't work, I didn't put that poison in my arm". Since apparntly COVID was a hoax and you just can't trust anything "they" say anymore, the Ukraine war is also some type of staged hoax. He went into talking about videos with staged bodybags and dead bodies. I think I heard something like "Putin is fighting the deep state" (yes, he actually said something like this). The crowd reaction was more "WTF" but he wasn't booed like I would hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 As I often say, spreading lies and bull**** should be criminal... 1 hour ago, visionary said: <br /> That one really doesn't look good at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 The SBU intercepted conversations between the occupiers: in Kharkiv they were ordered to shoot at civilians The Russian army is throwing more and more forces into the encirclement of the city, but it does not give the desired results, and the losses of the occupiers are incomparable. We continue to collect facts of Russian war crimes. ‘We Are Told To Kill Everybody’ — Alleged Intercept Points to War Crimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngestson Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 3 hours ago, Larry said: Bosnia's ambassador does not point out that "Ukraine's fate" happened because they did not join NATO. Absolutely! It's been a point for of conservatives who like to call themselves "libertarians" that Russia has been bated into aggressive actions by NATO expanding towards their borders since the 1990s. While I suppose I see that as a point, it's a more valid one to ask WHY all those former Soviet-Bloc nations want to join NATO. It was not because they wanted the snappy uniforms and to use .556. It was because they were, rightfully, concerned with Russia gaining enough power and will to gobble them up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) The Armed Forces of Ukraine killed the Deputy Commander of the Black Sea Fleet of the #Russian Federation Edited March 19, 2022 by FrFan 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now