The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2

[Thinking Skins]

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It's not plausible to think you can win with a passing game with 3 IOL who are, quite frankly, awful. We didn't have any kind of good personnel on offense in that stretch. We were using Gibson poorly due to Robinson being out, we couldn't protect due to the IOL and our receivers couldn't touch the ball because Wentz was doing his Haynesworth interpretation. It's not some crazy puzzle to put together. It's all right in front of us for why things work and then they don't.

 

Nick Martin is perhaps the worst OL we've seen play for us in years. Years. And that's scary. 

That may be true but they legit thought that Norwell and Turner and Roullier/Wes/Martin/Martin was a good plan on the OL for the pass style offense. If the shooting doesn't occur, do we start more balanced? probably. But I think we got a 28 million dollar guy thinking we could have a Chiefs type offense. Its what Sheehan was talking about all summer. It was the pitch they made to QBs in the offseason. It was the faith they had in their OL coach. It may not have been justified but it was there. 

[KDawg]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

That may be true but they legit thought that Norwell and Turner and Roullier/Wes/Martin/Martin was a good plan on the OL for the pass style offense. If the shooting doesn't occur, do we start more balanced? probably. But I think we got a 28 million dollar guy thinking we could have a Chiefs type offense. Its what Sheehan was talking about all summer. It was the pitch they made to QBs in the offseason. It was the faith they had in their OL coach. It may not have been justified but it was there. 

They thought wrong.

 

I don't understand what them thinking it was a good plan matters.

 

It clearly wasn't. 

[Koolblue13]

There is a lot of speculation as to why the Oline was addressed so poorly this offseason.

 

Snyders cash flow

Good coaching

failed player development

Injuries (which I think really matters)

 

Wentz looked pretty damn good, until Chase and Wes went down, along with BRob. 

[DWinzit]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not in the camp that Scott Turner is an idiot and I'd think he'd have to be if he didn't learn from what worked and didn't work this season including with Carson.  If we can see if from our couch, I figure he and I know his dad is very involved can see what we can and more. 

 

I talked about this before but what sold me on Scott last season was zeroing in on the run game when i was at the Vegas game.  And he had so much misdirection in it that it fooled my eyes over and over again.  The PFF guy was talking about the same thing this morning -- he's really good at setting up a run game that keeps the defense guessing. 

 

The run game in their strength.  I don't think Turner would go back to hey lets try again what we did against the Eagles in game 1.  I don't think BFS meant Turner would continue that route -- or maybe he did if so I'll let him clarify.  I think he meant that's clearly how they started.

 

I am not in the Turner is an idiot camp either. I am just get the impression he would be craving using Wentz's arm more and it begin to take him out of the plan that is working. It would be great to get some of the other WR's involved in the game as they are being under used yet sticking to run heavy - play action scheme.

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Simplest way for me to put it is.

 

A.  The defense and run game are winning games for them.  Taylor is doing just enough not to screw that up.

 

bench him if

 

B. The defense and run game are winning games for them.  Taylor does just enough to screw that up.

 

I don't think he's played that hot of late in their wins.  Bram Weinstein the lead Heinicke Hive dude in the media even admits Heinicke isn't playing well lately.  So if lets say the opponent's defense instead of dropping his picks, catches them and these 4th quarter picks burn him like they did against Minnesota versus Eagles-Indy, then I'd consider benching him.

 

The cold weather coming up isn't going to help him.  And no sarcasm intended but the way Heinicke built up Dallas' defense last off season and the way he played against them give me the vibe he's intimidated by them and that's going to be a big game.

 

My main concern about Wentz and its a big one is the dude isn't known to play his best when the lights are brightest. 

That's fair. but his PIC did cost us the Vikings game. Then we go 3 and out and they score again and the Ridgeway penalty hurts us. But that was coming off a 3 game winning streak (2 by Heinicke) and there was no question that you don't bench Heinicke there (partially because Wentz wasn't ready yet and partially because Howell isn't either). But that's a typical game I'm talking about because Heinicke had 2 TDs and 1 Int and 150 yards. So are we saying that the same thing (down to the 4th quarter pic) gets him benched this time? 

[Chump Bailey]

I'd like to see us go after Jack Conklin offseason. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

There is a lot of speculation as to why the Oline was addressed so poorly this offseason.

 

Snyders cash flow

Good coaching

failed player development

Injuries (which I think really matters)

 

Wentz looked pretty damn good, until Chase and Wes went down, along with BRob. 

 

Wes coming back I think is big.  Part of the reason why Masko was hailed as a genius was the O line didn't fall off in the first two years when they had injuries.  Lucas and Wes were a big part of that.  Lucas has played better of late at least as to run blocking.  The PFF guy hailed him this morning.  Rivera has talked about how Larsen has stabilized center.  Looks like Cosmi is moving to guard and that should be interesting to watch.  The O line still isn't good but not as bad IMO than it was earlier.  

 

I am not inpressed with what I saw from Wentz but i do admit he had the perfect storm of misery.  The defense and run game wasn't coming on yet.  And Nick Martin could barely got a snap right let alone block.  We ironically did see a little of the lean on the defense and run game in the Bears game when Wentz played with a broken finger -- if Heincke played that game people would be crowing about they won because of Taylor's moxie.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Wes coming back I think is big.  Part of the reason why Masko was hailed as a genius was the O line didn't fall off in the first two years when they had injuries.  Lucas and Wes were a big part of that.  Lucas has played better of late at least as to run blocking.  The PFF guy hailed him this morning.  Rivera has talked about how Larsen has stabilized center.  Looks like Cosmi is moving to guard and that should be interesting to watch.  The O line still isn't good but not as bad IMO than it was earlier.  

 

I am not inpressed with what I saw from Wentz but i do admit he had the perfect storm of misery.  The defense and run game wasn't coming on yet.  And Nick Martin could barely got a snap right let alone block.  We ironically did see a little of the lean on the defense and run game in the Bears game when Wentz played with a broken finger -- if Heincke played that game people would be crowing about they won because of Taylor's moxie.

 

Yup.

 

I'm not implying Wentz should start. I don't know. But it's tough to take a guy out who is on a pretty big win streak, REGARDLESS of the circumstances of that win streak. But I am saying I think Wentz, with this iteration of the team and a more run heavy gameplan (because Robinson is healthy and the OL went from god awful to meh) would be much better than he looked in a few of those games. Oh, and he doesn't have a broken finger.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

Yup.

 

I'm not implying Wentz should start. I don't know. But it's tough to take a guy out who is on a pretty big win streak, REGARDLESS of the circumstances of that win streak. But I am saying I think Wentz, with this iteration of the team and a more run heavy gameplan (because Robinson is healthy and the OL went from god awful to meh) would be much better than he looked in a few of those games. Oh, and he doesn't have a broken finger.

 

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Wes coming back I think is big.  Part of the reason why Masko was hailed as a genius was the O line didn't fall off in the first two years when they had injuries.  Lucas and Wes were a big part of that.  Lucas has played better of late at least as to run blocking.  The PFF guy hailed him this morning.  Rivera has talked about how Larsen has stabilized center.  Looks like Cosmi is moving to guard and that should be interesting to watch.  The O line still isn't good but not as bad IMO than it was earlier.  

 

I am not inpressed with what I saw from Wentz but i do admit he had the perfect storm of misery.  The defense and run game wasn't coming on yet.  And Nick Martin could barely got a snap right let alone block.  We ironically did see a little of the lean on the defense and run game in the Bears game when Wentz played with a broken finger -- if Heincke played that game people would be crowing about they won because of Taylor's moxie.

Losing your 3 IOL and you RB1 to start the season is pretty brutal for a new QB in a system for sure. Larson and now Wes coming back should really help too. 

 

I agree you don't change the QB when you're winning (I remember Bloodsoe not getting his job back for some no name rookie    ) , but a healthy Wentz certainly opens the offense up as we get towards the playoffs.

 

I was a big Wentz guy, sure, but I don't think we can close the book on him yet.

[Mr. Sinister]

I want Wentz back 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Wes coming back I think is big.  Part of the reason why Masko was hailed as a genius was the O line didn't fall off in the first two years when they had injuries.  Lucas and Wes were a big part of that.  Lucas has played better of late at least as to run blocking.  The PFF guy hailed him this morning.  Rivera has talked about how Larsen has stabilized center.  Looks like Cosmi is moving to guard and that should be interesting to watch.  The O line still isn't good but not as bad IMO than it was earlier.  

 

I am not inpressed with what I saw from Wentz but i do admit he had the perfect storm of misery.  The defense and run game wasn't coming on yet.  And Nick Martin could barely got a snap right let alone block.  We ironically did see a little of the lean on the defense and run game in the Bears game when Wentz played with a broken finger -- if Heincke played that game people would be crowing about they won because of Taylor's moxie.

 

Where did you hear Cosmi is moving to Guard? As far as I know he's still splitting snaps 50/50 with Lucas at RT.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

That's fair. but his PIC did cost us the Vikings game. Then we go 3 and out and they score again and the Ridgeway penalty hurts us. But that was coming off a 3 game winning streak (2 by Heinicke) and there was no question that you don't bench Heinicke there (partially because Wentz wasn't ready yet and partially because Howell isn't either). But that's a typical game I'm talking about because Heinicke had 2 TDs and 1 Int and 150 yards. So are we saying that the same thing (down to the 4th quarter pic) gets him benched this time? 

 

It's hard for me to quantify.  I don't think he's playing well.  He's not been horrible but its to my eyes distinctly below average QB play -- if that below average play sinks deeper and they lose, its on the table for me.

[Ball Security]

3 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Where did you hear Cosmi is moving to Guard? As far as I know he's still splitting snaps 50/50 with Lucas at RT.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Where did you hear Cosmi is moving to Guard? As far as I know he's still splitting snaps 50/50 with Lucas at RT.

 

 

[zCommander]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I want Wentz back 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

I'm curious what Wentz can do behind an OL that has restabilized and with the new run first mindset. The Colts were run first last year too and Wentz had a real good year statistically. 

[mhd24]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's hard for me to quantify.  I don't think he's playing well.  He's not been horrible but its to my eyes distinctly below average QB play -- if that below average play sinks deeper and they lose, its on the table for me.

 

We shouldn't have been in the Viking game in the first place considering the ref gifted us the Samuel TD on the awful throw by Taylor in the first place intro triple coverage.  

[Thinking Skins]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's hard for me to quantify.  I don't think he's playing well.  He's not been horrible but its to my eyes distinctly below average QB play -- if that below average play sinks deeper and they lose, its on the table for me.

I can somewhat get this and even if we go by your definition earlier, I'm in favor of going with Howell over Wentz based on potential and looking into next year. We can't afford to keep Wentz and Payne so we can give Payne some of the Wentz money and then the salary cap increase goes to Sweat and then our starter is on a rookie/backup contract and we're set. 

[Mr. Sinister]

6 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

 

 

 

I'm smoking the paper planes that Heinicke is throwing...

 

But mostly, I'm more interested in seeing what Wentz would look like, with an OC who is not obsessed with throwing on every play, like Turner was initially. Wentz is clearly not a guy that can function that way.

 

"Winning games" I scertainly something. I'll give him that. But it clearly looks like all it her facets of the team have improved since Wentz went out, including coaching. The defense us the biggest example.

 

I would like to see what he could do in this scenario.

[zCommander]

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by zCommander

[zCommander]

15 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

I'm smoking the paper planes that Heinicke is throwing...

 

But mostly, I'm more interested in seeing what Wentz would look like, with an OC who is not obsessed with throwing on every play, like Turner was initially. Wentz is clearly not a guy that can function that way.

 

"Winning games" I scertainly something. I'll give him that. But it clearly looks like all it her facets of the team have improved since Wentz went out, including coaching. The defense us the biggest example.

 

I would like to see what he could do in this scenario.

 

Right now is not the time to see what Wentz looks like when we are one of the team in the playoff. They only way Wentz comes in if push came to shove and something drastic needs to happen to further secure that playoff spot. 

[Mr. Sinister]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

Right now is not the time to see what Wentz looks like when we are one of the team in the playoff. They only way Wentz comes in if push came to shove and something drastic needs to happen to further secure that playoff spot. 

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Skinsinparadise]

59 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

We shouldn't have been in the Viking game in the first place considering the ref gifted us the Samuel TD on the awful throw by Taylor in the first place intro triple coverage.  

 

The ref said Taylor's moxie was so contagious that he wanted to make a play for him.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, Ball Security said:

 

 

 

Didn't know I had anything in common with Sam Cosmi but here we are.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Would it be correct to say that Wentz has a strong arm but no touch/timing? I seem to remember him zipping **** at a 100 mph to receivers/backs on short routes. Missing completely on easy passes but being able to air it out to Jahan on some pretty nice plays. Not sure more time in the playbook fixes that does it? He had all of preseason to get things squared away. Maybe the staff recognizes his flaws can't be fixed. Just wierd to stick with "it", "moxie" because of a winning streak. 

 

It's fair to say that.  I don't think Heinicke is that much better with those first level throws, but agree he's better with them -- Taylor's accuracy can be shaky with them, players have to fish down or up often to catch his passes, even the layup easy ones but considering he doesn't have a fastball, touch is always fine with Taylor -- we don't have to worry about too much mustard really ever on a pass from Taylor.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Skinsinparadise