The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

19 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

We had the best LT you could possibly have in Trent and we didn't win squat.  

 

And yet our best LT is winning in San Fran lol

Maybe it has to do with having a coach who knows what the hell he doing and has surrounded the QB with legit playmakers and knows how to scheme. Having a stout D also matters. 

 

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

48 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd gag if they did so.  It feels like doubling down on the last 25 years or so.  But regardless, I'd hold my nose and hope the GM is right and if he isn't he should be canned -- you can't make a move like that without there being consequences. 

 

I think the odds are close to zero that they don't go QB.  But will see.

 

Doubling down would be drafting a DL with our first rounder. There are no potential QBs early in round 2, i presume.

 

I like Howell and with the season not even over am not ready to cast him away for promises of greener pastures that the record show are not always so. I want Sam retained for now.

Edited January 5 by RandyHolt

[wit33]

 

16 minutes ago, zCommander said:

Maybe it has to do with having a coach who knows what the hell he doing and has surrounded the QB with legit playmakers and knows how to scheme. Having a stout D also matters. 

 

 

Feel like I could play LT for the situation you described above. 

[skinsmania123]

1 hour ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Because you have to pay them? Why are you paying someone to be inactive most games? Very few teams carry 3 QBs on the active roster. We don't right now. And most will not sign with a team to be QB3.

 

What is the point in keeping Howell rather than finding a trade partner if you know he is not the guy? He got outplayed by Jacoby, nobody should even feel comfortable with him as a backup. Most people want him to start against the Cowboys and these last weeks of the season because there is a greater chance that he will lose. That means most have zero faith in him clearly. 

Because Howell is on a cheap rookie contract as a 5th round draft pick that is #1. His salary is negligible in comparison to other players' salaries. If you have read the thread, which I assume you have, and watched a number of Washington's games, then you know there was little to no variation in play calling by EB. Howell was forced to throw 63%-64% of the time, and even when we ran the ball and it was working, EB never forced the D to stop, or create opportunities for a less contested downfield shot. Nope. He would just revert back to passing.  That is incompetence at best.  Even when our receivers were NOT getting separation and Howell forced the ball, EB kept passing.  

 

So naturally you wonder if we had a more competent OC with a more balanced approach, coupled with decent O line support, etc. how might Howell work out then. Clearly, we need a competent GM/HC to figure that out.  

[Skinsinparadise]

59 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Doubling down would be drafting a DL with our first rounder.

 

3 of the 4 D lineman taken weren't even top 10 picks let alone top 5.

 

But yeah getting our Chris Samuel and Trent Williams with a high pick would feel to me very like previous regimes.  But that goes double for them to double down on that approach in arguably a top heavy good QB draft.

 

If your point is Ron specifically put no value on the O line.  I agree.  But previous regimes did.  It's one of the only units that was mostly good during the Dan reign with Ron being the exception during the last 2 years here. 

 

59 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

 

I like Howell and with the season not even over am not ready to cast him away for promises of greener pastures that the record show are not always so. I want Sam retained for now.

 

I like Howell but at the moment he looks more like a guy than a future franchise QB.    Don't get me wrong I am not out on him.  But I don't think he has a high ceiling and couple that with him performing much worse as the opposing defenses have gotten better and as the season progressed makes me pause -- and apparently judging the poll below, most fans feel the same way, too.

 

Skipping QB with a rare high top 3 pick in a good draft for QBs according to most -- would be a very daring move for the new GM and daring to me in a bad way because its being risk averse and somewhat fits prior regimes moves that have failed here.  So if they ran that script and one of the QBs they skipped over becomes a franchise QB ala Ron skipping over Herbert -- assuming Howell doesn't turn into a franchise QB -- I'd want that GM fired, I don't care what else he did right.  

 

So that GM would better be right.  Othewise, it would be a no brainer move to fire that GM.  In that case, he's going to have to endure the arrows of taking another position over a QB from the local, national media and most fans -- that's cool if he's willing to go against the grain and take the heat at that time but he better be right in that case.  Otherwise its a high profile colossal missed opportunity.

 

Edited January 5 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

57 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I like Howell and with the season not even over am not ready to cast him away for promises of greener pastures that the record show are not always so.

You use the phrase “cast him [Howell] away for promises of greener pastures” as if we’d be discarding safe QB production (let’s say, on the scale of Alex Smith to Kirk Cousins) to chase a risky higher ceiling.

 

Thats not really the situation at all. It’s not all Howell’s fault but it would be extremely difficult for us to field worse QB play/production next year. It is not a high bar to hurdle for a new talented rookie QB to come in and give us better QB play. Not even franchise QB play, just better QB play with explosive capability. This year with Howell (again, not all his fault at all) set the bar extremely low. So I don’t really get what you mean by this. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[method man]

I will say it more strongly than @Skinsinparadise. Anyone who is suggesting anything other than QB with anything other than the #1-#3 picks is just wasting their own time with the post and the board’s time with the discussion. MHJ, Fashanu etc are not going to happen and trading down for the second tier of QBs is not going to happen either. The real bottom line is this team needs a young highly regarded QB to give the fans hope and sell tickets for next year because the “Dan Snyder is gone” effect has worn off. Remember that Harris has 20 LPs, many of whom don’t care about the team, who are expecting a return. Harris is not going to want to piss these LPs off with a weak year 2 dividend

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, method man said:

I will say it more strongly than @Skinsinparadise. Anyone who is suggesting anything other than QB with anything other than the #1-#3 picks is just wasting their own time with the post and the board’s time with the discussion. MHJ, Fashanu etc are not going to happen and trading down for the second tier of QBs is not going to happen either. The real bottom line is this team needs a young highly regarded QB to give the fans hope and sell tickets for next year because the “Dan Snyder is gone” effect has worn off. Remember that Harris has 20 LPs, many of whom don’t care about the team, who are expecting a return. Harris is not going to want to piss these LPs off with a weak year 2 dividend

 

Agree.  It's business sense, too as to your point.  I'd add some things.

 

A.  This team rarely has a top 3 pick.  As bad as its been its not been this level bad often.  So this is a unique opportunity.   

 

B.  Ron's regime is now infamous for having a new beginning back when he took over yet didn't grab a QB with the 2nd pick in the draft.  The 3 QBs who went in that draft high ended up good.   Ron made a mistake.   We likewise have 3 top QBs in this draft some say 4 who are arguably even more hyped than that group -- are they going to double down and do the exact same thing again with a new regime?  

 

C.  To your point, this has been a hyped QB draft starting in 2022 -- Drake Maye and Caleb Williams in particular are big names with built in hype.  We got them and the Heisman Trophy Winner who is an electric player.  How can owner-GM just blow that off if they want to sell tickets?

 

So I agree with your point the politics of it makes it really tough to do anything else.  The national media, local media and fans would likely trash them doing anything different than taking a QB. 

 

Considering to your point, Harris wanting to bring fan excitement, good luck if its hey we are surrounding Howell with weapons lets get excited.    For a team that in my lifetime just once had a ballyhooed QB taken early in the draft (I didn't think Shuler was that much of an exciting college player) to see it happen again makes me jazzed to no end.  And I am not a causal fan where I am a hard get.  I know plenty of here feel the same way. 

 

Taking a QB early is a homerun PR move to your point.  Not that I think that's why they should do it.  But its quite the cherry on top of the ice cream move. 

 

 

Edited January 6 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  It's business sense, too as to your point.  I'd add some things.

 

A.  This team rarely has a top 3 pick.  As bad as its been its not been this level bad often.  So this is a unique opportunity.   

 

B.  Ron's regime is now infamous for having a new beginning back when he took over yet didn't grab a QB with the 2nd pick in the draft.  The 3 QBs who went that draft high ended up good.   Ron made a mistake.   We likewise has 3 top QBs in this draft some say 4 -- are they going to double down and do the exact same thing again with a new regime?  

 

C.  To your point, this has been a hyped QB draft starting in 2022 -- Drake Maye and Caleb Williams in particular are big names with built in hype.  We got them and the Heisman Trophy Winner who is an electric player.  How can owner-GM just blow that off?

 

But agree with your point the politics of it makes it really tough to do anything else.  The national media, local media and fans would likely trash doing anything different than taking a QB. 

 

Considering to your point, Harris wanting to bring fan excitement, good luck if its hey we are surrounding Howell with weapons lets get excited.    For a team that in my lifetime just once had a ballyhooed QB taken early in the draft (I didn't think Shuler was that much of an exciting college player) to see it happen again makes me jazzed to no end.  And I am not a causal fan where I am a hard get.  I know plenty of here feel the same way. 

 

Taking a QB early is a homerun PR move to your point.  Not that I think that's why they should do it.  But its quite the cherry on top of the ice cream move. 

 

 

If ownership needs a historic datapoint to work with regarding fan excitement over one player, look no further than when they took RG3. The case study is effectively there with this fanbase already

[Anselmheifer]

The rumor is that we are looking at the DC of the Ravens as our head coach and Joe Hortiz of the Ravens as our GM. I wonder if that tilts the draft toward Jayden Daniels  at all.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, method man said:

If ownership needs a historic datapoint to work with regarding fan excitement over one player, look no further than when they took RG3. The case study is effectively there with this fanbase already

 

Exactly,

 

I've talked on and off over the years of the journey of keeping my kids fans.  It's not been easy.    But the RG3 year it was a piece of cake.  I flew up annd my kids were excited to do it to watch RG3's first preseason game -- against the Colts-Andrew Luck.

 

I am tired of hey this team has Aaron Rodgers, they got Burrow, oh they have Drew Brees, Lamar Jackson, Russell Wilson (when he was good).  It's like you aren't part of the cool guys party.   And I do think it has something to do with this team struggiling with the next generation of fans.  As JP Finlay said roaming around the DMV including noticing his kids peer group -- they are wearing other teams jerseys, not the Commanders.

 

I know we are used to be on the outside looking in on the big boy teams.  But for one flash of time, in 2012, this team was relevant.  I recall for example before they played Pittsburgh that year, a Steelers beat guy said on local DC radio that he's hearing Steeler fans are excited about going to that game because they wanted to see RG3 play.  Opposing fans going to watch Washington because they want to see a Washington player play live.  That sounds insane now.  But it wasn't insane then. 

 

Heck if I told my son lets go see Lamar Jackson (a player he loves) if the Ravens played the Dolphins in the playoffs, he'd say yes in 2 seconds.  But I won't do it because I won't risk him rooting for the Ravens. 

 

We are diehards here so there is nothing that can sway us off this team.  But I am senstive to the more causal and young fans.  Not just my kids but I've seen friends bail on this team, my brother in law is raising his son to root for the Dolphins among other things.  This isn't a sexy team to root for.  And some push back on this whenever I say it -- suggesting in a strawman response that I'd rather be exciting than win.  But of course that's not it.  It would be one thing is we were boring and win.  But we are boring and lose. 

 

This team has been a loser and a boring loser at that.   It's one thing that Rivera has in common IMO with Bruce Allen.  Both were "meh" but even worse they were a boring version of "meh"

 

So in short, I think no doubt they need a QB for a change who can sell tickets and more importantly help this team win.  

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

The rumor is that we are looking at the DC of the Ravens as our head coach and Joe Hortiz of the Ravens as our GM. I wonder if that tilts the draft toward Jayden Daniels  at all.

 

Keim seems to be the most plugged into that ownership group and hasn't led me wrong on anything related to them yet.  He said that this group has been very tight at avoiding leaks as to whom they are interested in.

 

The Baltimore Ravens stuff is a connect the dots scenario.  Shen worked there.  And Breer mentioned that Harris admires their operation while someone mentioned that he admires the Eagles.

 

Though Keim mentioned recently don't assume just because there is a relatiionship between some in the building with others that it will translate into a hire and made the point that in some cases the familiarity works the opposite way where the people actually didn't get along.

 

Keim as usual is vague but also says enough to make you wonder and then later it makes sense.  Thinking about it who in that building matters to upcoming hires?   Shen of course.  And I gather if that's how Keim was referencing he doesn't have a great relationship with someone -- I gather its with someone from the Ravens.  I don't know obviously for sure.  But it struck me really interesting that Keim said don't assume a connect the dots relationship is a positive.

Edited January 6 by Skinsinparadise

[Curtisp5286]

1 hour ago, method man said:

I will say it more strongly than @Skinsinparadise. Anyone who is suggesting anything other than QB with anything other than the #1-#3 picks is just wasting their own time with the post and the board’s time with the discussion. MHJ, Fashanu etc are not going to happen and trading down for the second tier of QBs is not going to happen either. The real bottom line is this team needs a young highly regarded QB to give the fans hope and sell tickets for next year because the “Dan Snyder is gone” effect has worn off. Remember that Harris has 20 LPs, many of whom don’t care about the team, who are expecting a return. Harris is not going to want to piss these LPs off with a weak year 2 dividend

Harris will not run the team with short term quarterly returns in mind.  I think you can discard that way of thinking about the team.
 

I’ve watched him tear down and rebuild an NBA and NHL team.  He is in it for long term sustainable success.  He is going to hire good people and let them do their jobs.  They will almost definitely draft a QB in round 1, but it won’t be because Harris told them to.

Edited January 6 by Curtisp5286

[RWJ]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Keim seems to be the most plugged into that ownership group and hasn't led me wrong on anything related to them yet.  He said that this group has been very tight at avoiding leaks as to whom they are interested in.

 

The Baltimore Ravens stuff is a connect the dots scenario.  Shen worked there.  And Breer mentioned that Harris admires their operation while someone mentioned that he admires the Eagles.

 

Though Keim mentioned recently don't assume just because there is a relatiionship between some in the building with others that it will translate into a hire and made the point that in some cases the familiarity works the opposite way where the people actually didn't get along.

 

Keim as usual is vague but also says enough to make you wonder and then later it makes sense.  Thinking about it who in that building matters to upcoming hires?   Shen of course.  And I gather if that's how Keim was referencing he doesn't have a great relationship with someone -- I gather its with someone from the Ravens.  I don't know obviously for sure.  But it struck me really interesting that Keim said don't assume a connect the dots relationship is a positive.

Not the kind of answer I want to hear but it is what it is, SIP.  I hope the relationship with the Raven's has nothing to do with Hortiz. It is thought that Shen did/does have a decent relationship with MacDonald.  One thing that disappoints me and I'm sure others is Keim's being vague about his news/posts. I will say this about him too.  He's very political.  Why do I say this because if you follow certain people, he will not respond to you.  You can take that to the banks, my friend.   

Edited January 6 by RWJ

[method man]

@Curtisp5286 This is a very different ballgame with this team than the 6ers and Devils. He and Blitzer had to raise much smaller amounts of LP capital for those two teams so they had flexibility to take the long term approach because their capital made up most of the equity.

 

In the case of this team, he owns just 30% and raised from people like Eric Schmidt and Santo Domingo who probably could care less about the team and more about the return.

 

I’m sure the financial return is back end weighted but you don’t want to miss your pro forma projections to investors this early. If he does, that will affect his primary businesses in the financial world

[Curtisp5286]

16 minutes ago, method man said:

@Curtisp5286 This is a very different ballgame with this team than the 6ers and Devils. He and Blitzer had to raise much smaller amounts of LP capital for those two teams so they had flexibility to take the long term approach because their capital made up most of the equity.

 

In the case of this team, he owns just 30% and raised from people like Eric Schmidt and Santo Domingo who probably could care less about the team and more about the return.

 

I’m sure the financial return is back end weighted but you don’t want to miss your pro forma projections to investors this early. If he does, that will affect his primary businesses in the financial world

Thanks for the info.  I still kind of doubt that the team will be run in the way you are characterizing though.  I don’t believe that he will interfere in operations in that way.

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

The rumor is that we are looking at the DC of the Ravens as our head coach and Joe Hortiz of the Ravens as our GM. I wonder if that tilts the draft toward Jayden Daniels  at all.

Im not super happy with a defensive minded HC but the fact that they come in knowing each other and successful together is a dream come true if they can pull it off. 
 

I can get over the other stuff. Leadership is really what matters for us. And cohesion is a big part of that. 

[method man]

4 minutes ago, Curtisp5286 said:

Thanks for the info.  I still kind of doubt that the team will be run in the way you are characterizing though.  I don’t believe that he will interfere in operations in that way.

Is he going to tell the GM exactly who he needs to draft? No. Will the plan presented to him by GM candidates make a difference in who he hires? Yes

 

That is how you put your thumb on the scale as a “hands off” owner

[Conn]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

Not the kind of answer I want to hear but it is what it is, SIP.  I hope the relationship with the Raven's has nothing to do with Hortiz. It is thought that Shen did/does have a decent relationship with MacDonald.  One thing that disappoints me and I'm sure others is Keim's being vague about his news/posts. I will say this about him too.  He's very political.  Why do I say this because if you follow certain people, he will not respond to you.  You can take that to the banks, my friend.   

He has almost 100k followers. To think he’s clicking random peoples’ profiles to see who else they follow before deciding to respond or not is the height of paranoia or self-importance. 

[Skinsinparadise]

As for selling tickets and winning debate.  I think it turns too often is a zero sum game.  It's one or the other.  But I don't think it is.

 

The Eagles for example are interesting and aggressive in their off season approach typically and I gather it both helps them sell tickets and helps them win.  

 

I recall listening to a Ravens beat reporter years back say Lamar Jackson has been so big for that franchise because they'd win before him but were boring doing it -- and Lamar has added so much zest and excitement to that team that its bolstered more zeal from the fan base and also generated next generation fan interest at ironically the Redskins expense and helped that team take over Maryland.

 

Heck when I've traveled to the DMV whether for camp and to games, I see sometimes more Ravens stuff than Commanders staff in stores and that's in areas closer to the city.  Winning and being interesting doing it often go hand in hand.

 

I think some of us have PTSD from the Cerrato era.  Dan and Vinny for that span were aggressive and their aggressivenss blew up in their face.  Yes, if you are aggressive and stupid its a terrible combination.  But having aggressive more sexy type of off seasons doesn't mean stupid off seasons.  Not every team is run by Dan-Vinny.  That experience is endemic to this team not the world.

 

I recall on the Bruce thread for years some people were trying to sell me on Bruce's more measured and conservative approach as if shooting low is smart in itself because shooting high leads to bigger misses and bigger consequences.

 

I among others would say back then, Bruce will likely be the death of this fan base because the dude both loses and is boring as hell in his approach.  So the off seasons give you no hope or excitement and the seasons follow with meh results. And that was certainly true.  I didn't expect it to get this bad but I among others certainly aren't shocked.  

 

As @Koolblue13 likes to call him, Ronmart as to off seasons.  It's apt. Yawn.  Bruce was the same way.  They were very "prudent" in their market shopping with an odd touch of arrogance along the way and look at how both regimes ended -- their flirted with mediocrity as their high water mark and then crashed into a team lacking talent-stars and sucking.  

 

My favorite summaries of both regimes.

 

A.  Bruce glowing in his interview about how fans shouldn't fret about losing Desean Jackson and Garcon because of the production their replaced them with via Brian Quick and Terrell Pryor and they got them at a super good price.

 

B.  Ron explaining to Sheehan why he wasn't into Tua or Herbert because he found them both risky.

 

Don't recall which beat reporter said it but one said they knew Jason Wright wanted to pursue Lamar Jackson because heck it would make hos job selling tickets just happen organically because of the excitment.  Now granted that wasn't realistic.  And I know some dislike Wright.  But I get the point.  There is no organic excitmennt about this team based on how they build it.

 

What are they selling last off season E. Forbes, Quan Martin or Wylie jerseys?  And again before someone hits me back on this.  I am not saying interesting off seasons are more important than winning.  But I don't believe they are mutually exclusive either.  If Ron and Bruce's "boring" off seasons translated to winning.  Then heck yeah I'd be on board.  But they are both boring and suck at it.   While Ron is farting around in the off season, the Eagles for example were adding Devonta Smith, trading down and adding draft capital.  Adding AJ Brown.  Adding Swfit, etc.   The Ravens make trades and add pieces.    

 

I think it was Keim who mentioned once when talking about this coming off season that he expects them to be aggressive and said something to the effect that they know they have to be exciting for a change.  Give fans hope.   And no Its not a red flag the way some take that.  Actually for example adding pieces on offense isn't just sexy but it helps you win if you do it right.  Ron thinks this is the 80s and drafts primarily defense.  Adding for example some more firepower on offense both can make the off season more interesting AND help you win.

Edited January 6 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

@Skinsinparadise I have to give @KDawg the kudos for RonMart. I just ran with it.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

@Skinsinparadise I have to give @KDawg the kudos for RonMart. I just ran with it.

 

OK, than props to @KDawg because that is so apt.  

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, than props to @KDawg because that is so apt.  

A bunch of cheap or reused knock offs that kinda work for a bit, but never well.

 

The discount bin.

[Skinsinparadise]

To add to that post I just made.

 

I like everything i've read about Harris.  And I 100% believe his goal is to win and do it the right way.

 

But I reject the premise that you can't both be interesting and win at the same time.  Just being aggressive alone makes you interesting.  And I get the vibe listening to Keim and Russini that Harris wants this off season to be interesting for a change.

 

And by that not be interesting for interesting sake.  But you can walk and chew gum at the same time.  He's running a business.  He's a smart guy, I doubt it escaped him that Ron was boring as Hell.  So was Bruce.  This is a boring irrelevant franchise.  That's Dan legacy.  And Bruce and Ron contributed to it.

 

For those who want them to eschew drafing a QB because its risky -- or lets fish in that next tier of QBs -- I doubt this FO engages in.  It's not just boring.  But it smacks of the previous risk averse regimes. 

 

And I've read enough about Harris to know he has balls.  And takes risks.  In the NBA he was obsessed with finding a game changing star.  In the NFL the closest thing to a game changing star in the NBA is a franchise QB.  

 

Granted Harris will leave it to the GM to make the call but he likely hires a dude who reflects his mindset.

 

I'd add to @method man's theme because this flows with it -- Harris has taken over a broken franchise, not just as far as winning but also its a brand that has been destroyed.  It's not like taking over Pepsi at a period where its falling down some and Coke it taking a big lead and you need to revive it some.  This is like RC Cola from the 1970s, down for the count, irrelevant, that needs total revival.  He doesn't have forever to do this.  He has to both IMO win quickly or if he needs to buy time before they win he needs to sell hope.   And this task isn't mutually exclusive.  Selling hope -- by that I don't mean artifical hope but real hope.

 

He's not selling hope drafting Joe Alt. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6 by Skinsinparadise