The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Going Commando]

Well... The Wentz trade was just as big a **** up as everyone outside of DC thought it would be.  It sucks, I was hoping for the best with him and I didn't want Ron to get himself fired, but that move should get him fired.

 

Problem is, he effectively has no boss capable of firing him and taking the reins here.

 

Letting Ron give up more assets for a tenth time's the charm QB is objectively insane.  We absolutely can not let him chase after another retread QB, he doesn't have the offensive infrastructure in place for one to work out because he gutted the OL and hired awful coaches for that side of the ball.  But whose going to stop him from doing that?  And drafting a first rounder is effectively dooming that kid with a lame duck rookie year coach, the same mistake we've made with all of first round QB picks over the last 20 years.

 

We're in a really bad spot and I think Ron has demonstrated he has no clue how to develop a franchise QB, and we're essentially looking at a purgatory season next year until we can get new ownership and a new GM and HC combo.  Our best realistic outcome is that Ron doesn't waste any more assets on QB and stocks the cupboard for the next regime.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

4 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Well... The Wentz trade was just as big a **** up as everyone outside of DC thought it would be.  It sucks, I was hoping for the best with him and I didn't want Ron to get himself fired, but that move should get him fired.

 

Problem is, he effectively has no boss capable of firing him and taking the reins here.

 

Letting Ron give up more assets for a tenth time's the charm QB is objectively insane.  We absolutely can not let him chase after another retread QB, he doesn't have the offensive infrastructure in place for one to work out because he gutted the OL and hired awful coaches for that side of the ball.  But whose going to stop him from doing that?  And drafting a first rounder is effectively dooming that kid with a lame duck rookie year coach, the same mistake we've made with all of first round QB picks over the last 20 years.

 

We're in a really bad spot and I think Ron has demonstrated he has no clue how to develop a franchise QB, and we're essentially looking at a purgatory season next year until we can get new ownership and a new GM and HC combo.  Our best realistic outcome is that Ron doesn't waste any more assets on QB and stocks the cupboard for the next regime.

Get ready for an unnecessary trade for Derek Carr. Everyone on the team will swear they Finally have a QB.

[R3dskinFan]

Let's get real about this QB decision for next week.  If RR decides to start Heinicke or Howell next week and they perform, it will only amplify how bad the decision was to go back to Wentz.  RR is in damage control mode now and the best way for him save face is to not provide any opportunity for another QB to play well.  Wentz starts next week.   

[CobraCommander]

4 minutes ago, R3dskinFan said:

Let's get real about this QB decision for next week.  If RR decides to start Heinicke or Howell next week and they perform, it will only amplify how bad the decision was to go back to Wentz.  RR is in damage control mode now and the best way for him save face is to not provide any opportunity for another QB to play well.  Wentz starts next week.   

I wonder how close he is to losing the locker room with the decision to go to Wentz. Not that week 18 matters anymore but this could be the turning point for him in that room. 

[Renegade7]

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

We're in a really bad spot and I think Ron has demonstrated he has no clue how to develop a franchise QB, and we're essentially looking at a purgatory season next year until we can get new ownership and a new GM and HC combo.  Our best realistic outcome is that Ron doesn't waste any more assets on QB and stocks the cupboard for the next regime.

 

Yet we all know that isn't going to happen.

 

Never seen a coach act altruisticly towards his potential replacement in the event of him being fired as part of his offseason decision making, and I don't expect that from Ron either.

 

Let's face, it's only a matter of time until he trades for someone else, the only questions are who, how much, and which owner is vetting this decision (Snyder or his replacement).

[Going Commando]

Who really cares who starts next week anymore?  The season is over, it'll be a meaningless game where we get pounded by a bitter rival no matter who starts.  The jig is up and we have nothing left to play for.

[R3dskinFan]

6 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

I wonder how close he is to losing the locker room with the decision to go to Wentz. Not that week 18 matters anymore but this could be the turning point for him in that room. 

Rumor has it that Wentz is a turd of a teammate and the locker room was already bent over the decision to install Wentz in week 17 with the team still chasing a wildcard spot.  The NFL is ultra competitive and expecting someone to roll out of bed after a 10 game layoff and perform is unrealistic. An experienced HC should know this. Scott Turner should know this.  After seeing Wentz's performance yesterday, everyone's concerns were validated.  Silver lining for RR is that there is only one game left on the schedule and then everyone will vacate the facility for several months and emotions will simmer down.  

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Yet we all know that isn't going to happen.

 

Never seen a coach act altruisticly towards his potential replacement in the event of him being fired as part of his offseason decision making, and I don't expect that from Ron either.

 

Let's face, it's only a matter of time until he trades for someone else, the only questions are who, how much, and which owner is vetting this decision (Snyder or his replacement).

Just listened to Standigs podcast, listened to Russell, Keim and Finlay too. Not everyone touched on the same stuff but adding a little from everyone.   Not just today but going back a week or so. 

 

The impression I get listening to it all is I major move likely coming relating to either FO or coaching. My guess is Turner is canned. 
 

I don’t think they are giving up assets for a QB.  They like their roster except O line and want to use assets to rebuild it. 

My guess is name that veteran QB they wouldn’t have to trade for.

 

They like what they’ve seen from Howell in practice so the idea of why bother? I am guessing they might be interested to see how he does versus real bullets. 
 

I don’t know if they start Howell but every beat guy thinks they should. As far as who cares, o know I do and some others error. It sucks we won’t be on the playoffs but I am curious now about next season. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

I wonder how close he is to losing the locker room with the decision to go to Wentz. Not that week 18 matters anymore but this could be the turning point for him in that room. 

According to Keim and Bram who are around the team a lot and Bram likes to call himself perhaps the biggest Heinicke fan among the media said the move to Wentz wasn’t controversial at all. Ditto Sheehan who checked with his sources and Sheehan hates Wentz.

 

I think like any QB competition with bad QBs. Not every player is likely to agree on which one is worse. Heinicke was on a losing streak with the season on the line. Be one thing if this was 5 weeks ago. 
 

Personally I’ve said many times this season I don’t think either QB is good. But I had no issue with throwing the dice here. My gut is Heinicke would have lost too but it would have been less ugly.

 

In one sense, I am glad it happened because I think it made it crystal clear that they need to move on from Wentz 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

According to Keim and Bram who are around the team a lot and Bram likes to call himself perhaps the biggest Heinicke fan among the media said the move to Wentz wasn’t controversial at all. Ditto Sheehan who checked with his sources and Sheehan hates Wentz.

 

I think like any QB competition with bad QBs. Not every player is likely to agree on which one is worse. Heinicke was on a losing streak with the season on the line. Be one thing if this was 5 weeks ago. 
 

Personally I’ve said many times this season I don’t think either QB is good. But I had no issue with throwing the dice here. My gut is Heinicke would have lost too but it would have been less ugly.

 

In one sense, I am glad it happened because I think it made it crystal clear that they need to move on from Wentz 

Something that would help for next year is to start the year with this season’s identity and then evolve from there if the opportunity presents itself. Starting with an identity can help alleviate the early season struggles. It is why the Giants are in the playoffs and we are not

[Renegade7]

@Skinsinparadise I would be shocked with this coaching staffs backs against the wall they dont trade for another veteran and jus pick something off the street instead.

 

Thats pretty much a garunteed losing season in 2023 and likely end of Rivera era (either by firing or it being leaked he won't get an extension).

 

Even a trade for Trey Lance or Jordan Love to compete with Howell would make more sense then Brissett or Mayfield (I do not trust what we seeing in LA because of the McVay factor) because of youth and potential upside.

 

Daniel Jones is a UFA (cries internally)...

Edited January 2, 2023 by Renegade7

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, method man said:

Something that would help for next year is to start the year with this season’s identity and then evolve from there if the opportunity presents itself. Starting with an identity can help alleviate the early season struggles. It is why the Giants are in the playoffs and we are not

 

Agree. I would sum up what derailed the season early and late is their belief that Wentz is a good QB.

 

They minimized the idea that Wentz struggled in Indy until Indy decided to become a run first team. And minimized the idea that Wentz played most of his career in Frank Reich’s system.

 

2nd. O line personnel mishaps in the off season. I got no doubt listening to beat guys and some of Riveras own comments they get they screwed this part up.  I don’t believe that Masko has gone from a magician to being a lost puppy. I do think this will be fixed.

 

The 3rd thing that derailed it IMO is lack of depth in the secondary. Logan Paulsen articulates well how they are mess whenever Curl isn’t playing but good when he does, in short, Curl directs the secondary while also fulfilling multiple roles on the backend.  Feels a lot to me about how the defense wasn’t the same the year they lost Ryan Clark. I recall the narrative at the time how much Sean Taylor leaned on Clark for positioning 

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@Skinsinparadise I would be shocked with this coaching staffs backs against the wall they dont trade for another veteran and jus pick something off the street instead.

 

Thats pretty much a garunteed losing season in 2023 and likely end of Rivera era (either by firing or it being leaked he won't get an extension).

 

Even a trade for Trey Lance or Jordan Love to compete with Howell would make more sense then Brissett or Mayfield (I do not trust what we seeing in LA because of the McVay factor) because of youth and potential upside.

 

Daniel Jones is a UFA (cries internally)...

Who is going to be traded? Maybe Carr, maybe he’s released but who else?

 

Jimmy G is a FA. 
 

As usual not many options at QB. 
 

Will see. Keim usually nails the off season so am curious when he launches into it.  But for now the early vibe I get is they want to direct serious resources into the O line 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree. I would sum up what derailed the season early and late is their belief that Wentz is a good QB.

 

They minimized the idea that Wentz struggled in Indy until Indy decided to become a run first team. And minimized the idea that Wentz played most of his career in Frank Reich’s system.

 

2nd. O line personnel mishaps in the off season. I got no doubt listening to beat guys and some of Riveras own comments they get they screwed this part up.  I don’t believe that Masko has gone from a magician to being a lost puppy. I do think this will be fixed.

 

The 3rd thing that derailed it IMO is lack of depth in the secondary. Logan Paulsen articulates well how they are mess whenever Curl isn’t playing but good when he does, in short, Curl directs the secondary while also fulfilling multiple roles on the backend.  Feels a lot to me about how the defense wasn’t the same the year they lost Ryan Clark. I recall the narrative at the time how much Sean Taylor leaned on Clark for positioning 

On your third point, I disagree a bit. The depth in the secondary turned out better than I expected. You are not going to have a Curl level player as a backup and Jack needed to find a better coverage scheme to run without Curl (although my guess is the lack of LB depth had an effect here, forcing the safeties to play up more)

 

Danny Johnson played decently well on the outside and it is surprising to me he did not make the season opening roster.

 

I think they are fine at the safety position with the five they have. However, they need to add a quality outside corner prospect to take over for Fuller either in 2023 (if he struggles) or 2024 (when he is a FA). Danny Johnson also should make the season opening roster. The fifth corner spot should be a competition between Holmes, TCF and Wildgoose

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree. I would sum up what derailed the season early and late is their belief that Wentz is a good QB.

 

They minimized the idea that Wentz struggled in Indy until Indy decided to become a run first team. And minimized the idea that Wentz played most of his career in Frank Reich’s system.

 

2nd. O line personnel mishaps in the off season. I got no doubt listening to beat guys and some of Riveras own comments they get they screwed this part up.  I don’t believe that Masko has gone from a magician to being a lost puppy. I do think this will be fixed.

 

The 3rd thing that derailed it IMO is lack of depth in the secondary. Logan Paulsen articulates well how they are mess whenever Curl isn’t playing but good when he does, in short, Curl directs the secondary while also fulfilling multiple roles on the backend.  Feels a lot to me about how the defense wasn’t the same the year they lost Ryan Clark. I recall the narrative at the time how much Sean Taylor leaned on Clark for positioning 

Who is going to be traded? Maybe Carr, maybe he’s released but who else?

 

Jimmy G is a FA. 
 

As usual not many options at QB. 
 

Will see. Keim usually nails the off season so am curious when he launches into it.  But for now the early vibe is they want to direct serious resources into the O line 

 

I'm not buying Raiders trade Carr, jus feels like franchise suicide.

 

I'm all out on Jimmy, he jus cannot stay healthy.

 

Trey Lance is interesting darkhorse because of emergence of Purdy he's likely lost his job and won't cost much to take a flyer on developing him ourselves.

 

Jordan Love I'm buying as done sitting behind Rodgers and Packers trapped with Rodgers contract.

 

There's also the very real possibility Ravens franchise Lamar, which I'm open to offering fully garunteed if he agrees to cutting down his hit against the cap.

 

We have options to trade for, better options them knowing walking into another 7-9ish season and hoping anything good comes from it.

[method man]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree. I would sum up what derailed the season early and late is their belief that Wentz is a good QB.

 

They minimized the idea that Wentz struggled in Indy until Indy decided to become a run first team. And minimized the idea that Wentz played most of his career in Frank Reich’s system.

 

2nd. O line personnel mishaps in the off season. I got no doubt listening to beat guys and some of Riveras own comments they get they screwed this part up.  I don’t believe that Masko has gone from a magician to being a lost puppy. I do think this will be fixed.

 

The 3rd thing that derailed it IMO is lack of depth in the secondary. Logan Paulsen articulates well how they are mess whenever Curl isn’t playing but good when he does, in short, Curl directs the secondary while also fulfilling multiple roles on the backend.  Feels a lot to me about how the defense wasn’t the same the year they lost Ryan Clark. I recall the narrative at the time how much Sean Taylor leaned on Clark for positioning 

Who is going to be traded? Maybe Carr, maybe he’s released but who else?

 

Jimmy G is a FA. 
 

As usual not many options at QB. 
 

Will see. Keim usually nails the off season so am curious when he launches into it.  But for now the early vibe I get is they want to direct serious resources into the O line 

Tannehill too if the Titans release him. For all the hate Tannehill got this season, he did put up a solid year all things considered (bad OL and one of the worst sets of weapons in the league)

[Renegade7]

Man...only way I get behind not trading for a veteran this offseason is if we are serious about drafting a QB in the first round.

 

I'm seeing our pick in updated sites today between 14th and 15th, it's possible, but have to leave door open to a trade up given most mock drafts I'm seeing show 3-4 QBs taken by then.

[CommanderInTheRye]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Man...only way I get behind not trading for a veteran this offseason is if we are serious about drafting a QB in the first round.

 

I'm seeing our pick in updated sites today between 14th and 15th, it's possible, but have to leave door open to a trade up given most mock drafts I'm seeing show 3-4 QBs taken by then.

 

 

I think we are now 14th after the Steelers won last night.

 

We could go as high as 10th overall or as low as the early 20s (I believe) depending on next week's games.

[Hooper]

The QB draft next year is going to be loaded FYI.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, method man said:

On your third point, I disagree a bit. The depth in the secondary turned out better than I expected. You are not going to have a Curl level player as a backup and Jack needed to find a better coverage scheme to run without Curl (although my guess is the lack of LB depth had an effect here, forcing the safeties to play up more)

 

Danny Johnson played decently well on the outside and it is surprising to me he did not make the season opening roster.

 

I think they are fine at the safety position with the five they have. However, they need to add a quality outside corner prospect to take over for Fuller either in 2023 (if he struggles) or 2024 (when he is a FA). Danny Johnson also should make the season opening roster. The fifth corner spot should be a competition between Holmes, TCF and Wildgoose

They weren’t the same without St.Juste. But the larger point at least from Logan Paulsens perspective is that Curl’s experience and eclectic skill set is big time critical to this secondary. Having a savvy veteran type as a backup IMO will help. Obviously you aren’t going to have another Curl on the bench but having a veteran who can direct traffic seems to be needed on the bench to step in.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[CommanderInTheRye]

2 minutes ago, Hooper said:

The QB draft next year is going to be loaded FYI.

 

Just to clarify, by next year are you referring to the 2024 draft?

[Hooper]

Just now, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

Just to clarify, by next year are you referring to the 2024 draft?

Yes. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, method man said:

Tannehill too if the Titans release him. For all the hate Tannehill got this season, he did put up a solid year all things considered (bad OL and one of the worst sets of weapons in the league)

Yeah could be. 

[method man]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

They weren’t the same without St.Juste. But the larger point at lest from Logan Paulsens perspective Curl’s experience and eclectic skill set is big time critical to a secondary. Having a savvy veteran type as a backup IMO will help. Obviously you aren’t going to have another Curl on the bench but having a veteran who can direct traffic seems to be needed on the bench. 

No they weren’t but no team is going to be the same without their no. 1 corner unless you are facing Scott Turner.

 

Shouldn’t McCain have been that savvy veteran who should have taken Curl’s place to direct traffic? Reaves played well coming in as a backup. I also expect Butler to make a leap next year

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm not buying Raiders trade Carr, jus feels like franchise suicide.

 

I'm all out on Jimmy, he jus cannot stay healthy.

 

Trey Lance is interesting darkhorse because of emergence of Purdy he's likely lost his job and won't cost much to take a flyer on developing him ourselves.

 

Jordan Love I'm buying as done sitting behind Rodgers and Packers trapped with Rodgers contract.

 

There's also the very real possibility Ravens franchise Lamar, which I'm open to offering fully garunteed if he agrees to cutting down his hit against the cap.

 

We have options to trade for, better options them knowing walking into another 7-9ish season and hoping anything good comes from it.

Maybe. Last off season looked to be more of a trade for a QB than sign one type of year. This off season to me feels like the open market and trade market might be about the same.

 

You think the Raiders are keeping Carr?  Am thinking almost zero chance they do especially after last night 

2 minutes ago, method man said:

No they weren’t but no team is going to be the same without their no. 1 corner unless you are facing Scott Turner.

 

Shouldn’t McCain have been that savvy veteran who should have taken Curl’s place to direct traffic? Reaves played well coming in as a backup. I also expect Butler to make a leap next year

 
I don’t know if there is a should or shouldn’t but just there is or is not. McCain apparently is not that guy who traffics anywhere near Curls level 

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, RVAskins said:

I read an interesting article about the 49ers. When Bill Walsh was the head coach, he was good friends with Al Davis and talked to Davis about trading Joe Montana to the Raiders. Davis said Montana wasn't a Raiders kind of QB because he did not have a strong arm but he was interested in Steve Young. While Montana didn't have a strong arm what he did have was great accuracy.

This brings me to Heinicke. He will never have a strong arm so the thing he really needs to work on his is accuracy. I still don't think he will ever be a starter again but improving his accuracy sure would help.

Accuracy is almost everything, IMO. Just get a guy who can deliver the ball where it needs to go. 
 

Wentz missing running backs in the flat yesterday was pathetic.