The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

46 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Did you miss the part where I said if I am provoked. I know what you are trying to do here.

 

But I will clear this up for the last and the millionth time, I wanted to us to roll with TH so we can get a franchise QB in the 2023 draft. You know where the class of 2023 with better QB prospect than 2022. But if Wentz keeps on playing like he is then my wish might actually come true. Hey, so what they paid Wentz $28 mil and lost couple of picks in the process. And yes I was meh on the Wentz trade. But you guys saw something special in him. So far meh. 

 

So you expect us to believe that, despite your posting history to the contrary and your firmly and publicly held belief for some time that TH could be the guy, the reason you actually wanted TH to start this season because he's not very good so he would give us a higher draft pick?

 

Are you really saying that with a straight face?

Edited September 29, 2022 by mistertim

[zCommander]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

So you expect us to believe that, despite your posting history to the contrary and your firmly and publicly held belief for some time that TH could be the guy, you're now saying that the whole time you actually wanted TH to start this season because he's not very good so he would give us a higher draft pick?

 

Are you really saying that with a straight face?

 

That is exactly what I have been saying in the offseason. Go back and take a look you will find it. I start the comprehensive draft thread and when I did the research for the 2022 QB class the experts where saying it was not a great QB class but 2023 was. This is why my mind was made up to start TH and wait for 2023. I really didn't want us to trade for anyone to be honest. I look at other teams who get their QB in the 1st round and I am jealous. I wanted my team to have it's own franchise QB who can be here for years. We haven't had that, like forever. 

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

That is exactly what I have been saying in the offseason. Go back and take a look you will find it. I start the comprehensive draft thread and when I did the research for the 2022 QB class the experts where saying it was not a great QB class but 2023 was. This is why my mind was made up to start TH and wait for 2023. I really didn't want us to trade for anyone to be honest. I look at other teams who get their QB in the 1st round and I am jealous. I wanted my team to have it's own franchise QB who can be here for years. We haven't had that, like forever. 

 

So can you shed light on exactly when you transitioned from "I think TH can be the guy" to "TH sucks and that will help us get a better draft pick in 2023"?

[CTskin]

Man I wish this OL didn’t blow balls. Wentz is seeing ghosts and I don’t blame him, the OL is a sieve and he can’t trust them.

 

aiden Hutchinson has .5 tackles in the two games beside this one. The eagles whole DL just feasted in a way I can’t recall ever seeing before.

 

I blame the OL and I blame Turner for our offensive woes, which in turn bleed into defensive woes because they’re on the field the whole game. Give wentz a clean pocket and I think this is a pretty good team. Turner ****ing figure it out.

[zCommander]

12 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So can you shed light on exactly when you transitioned from "I think TH can be the guy" to "TH sucks and that will help us get a better draft pick in 2023"?

 

There was no transition. When we were talking about trading for Turbs, Jimmy and the like. My stance was TH over those guys and draft a QB in 2023. You guys were all into 1 year rental and my point was, why. And you guys said they have the better arm so there was lots of back and forth of course...lol I do remember saying it build for the future (get guys on both side of the lines this year) and have our own franchise guy in 2023. This was before everyone knew Wentz was coming here. 

[88Comrade2000]

58 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

One thing you have to take in account is that if we didn't trade for Wentz then we would have gone with a QB with our 1st pick and so no Dotson. Would they have selected Howell that high though? If yes then they would have started Howell and TH as the backup.  

 

If they didn’t get Wentz; Mariotta or Tribusky likely would be our qb and they draft someone.

[zCommander]

16 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If they didn’t get Wentz; Mariotta or Tribusky likely would be our qb and they draft someone.

 

True. I liked Mariota over Turbs though. 

[mistertim]

Mariota or Trubisky would have cost less than Wentz, but they're also both 1st round draft busts who haven't ever shown themselves to be more than backups in the NFL and have little to no upside. Wentz on the other hand has shown himself capable of being a top tier QB in the past. That doesn't mean he'll ever be there again, but at least we know he has that potential.

 

To be honest, I probably would have just preferred to stick with Heinicke and secured a top draft pick in 2023 instead of paying for shlubs like Trubs or Mariota, though that was clearly not an option for the coaches and FO.

[Warhead36]

There was 0 chance we were gonna bring Heinicke back as a starter this year. Zilch. Zippo. None. There is no point even entertaining the notion. The coaches and quite frankly I think the TEAM were done with him. 

[NoCalMike]

54 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

There was 0 chance we were gonna bring Heinicke back as a starter this year. Zilch. Zippo. None. There is no point even entertaining the notion. The coaches and quite frankly I think the TEAM were done with him. 

 

Yeah, I guess it needs to be re-iterated for the 100th time, that even coming off the excitement of the Tampa playoff game where he played about as well as his ability allowed him to, he *STILL* got beat out in training camp by Ryan Fitzpatrick a career journeyman, which tells me that the coaches still saw more value in Fitz's ability to throw the ball downfield, despite being old, slow, and broken down.  Why that isn't enough for that portion of this fanbase to face the fact that Heinicke was never going to be named the starter outside of injury.....I don't understand. 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

There was 0 chance we were gonna bring Heinicke back as a starter this year. Zilch. Zippo. None. There is no point even entertaining the notion. The coaches and quite frankly I think the TEAM were done with him. 

 

That is correct. But here is my thought on that. The FO and the coaches had made the decision to go with a known QB who wasn't UDFA to go with the new name. But as fans we sometime forget football also has a business side as well. What we want and what actually happens are two different things. Dan said we finally have legit QB with Wentz. This is what they wanted. So they can say that. They didn't want to wait until 2023 to get a rookie QB and hope he turns out to be a franchise guy. When we got Alex. Bruce didn't even tell Gruden he got Alex. This is how he FO rolls. Now with Ron things can be little different but that influence from the owner is always going to be there.  

 

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Yeah, I guess it needs to be re-iterated for the 100th time, that even coming off the excitement of the Tampa playoff game where he played about as well as his ability allowed him to, he *STILL* got beat out in training camp by Ryan Fitzpatrick a career journeyman, which tells me that the coaches still saw more value in Fitz's ability to throw the ball downfield, despite being old, slow, and broken down.  Why that isn't enough for that portion of this fanbase to face the fact that Heinicke was never going to be named the starter outside of injury.....I don't understand. 

 

You have to look at the timeline. Taylor was brought in as the covid emergency QB after what had happened in Denver. Taylor played like 1.5 games and then got hurt in the playoff game. Taylor's durability was in question here. You can't start the next season on what if, uncertainty and unknowns. No coach is going do that unless they are really dumb. They went and got Fitz instead and paid him $10 mil. Now everyone knows no backup QB is going to beat out the starter the team just paid $10 mil for and make him the most expensive clip holder. Everyone in the league and the media would have laughed their asses off if that had actually happened. So I really don't understand when people bring up the training camp thing. It has no logic. There wasn't any competition for the starting job. Which I have said before as well. Now, Fitz was playing really well before he came here after we couldn't get Stafford.

 

As for your last sentence. It isn't about us wanting Taylor to be a starter but be starter and get a franchise QB in the 2023 draft are two different ways of looking at things. If Wentz turns out to be one year rental then another wasted money but this time picks as well. That hurts. But, if Wentz gets his head straight - even after losing on Sunday - and we go on a 4+ winning streak then all this is just moot and we will be discussing which team we will be playing in the playoffs instead. 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by zCommander

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Man, we’re now all the way down to a conspiracy that Heineke never even had the chance to start over Fitz because Fitz was making $10M.  
 

This year we only got Wentz because they had to have a “name” to go with the brand.

 

The stuff folks will convince themselves of just to fit the narrative they’ve built in their mind is something else I tell ya.

 

Carson Wentz was far from a name to put butts in seats.  There was no QB avail to us that puts butts in seats.  The hope was that they could get Carson back to a place where he could potentially put butts back in the seats.  Something they had determined Heineke will never be able to do.  It’s that simple.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

You could also say Wentz has played 4 good quarters out of 12.  (1st & 4th vs Jax and 2nd half vs Detroit).  He's played well for 33% of the three games thus far.  

 

I knew the Wentz experiment was doomed in August when Dan Snyder proclaimed "we finally have ourselves a quarterback."  

 

I hope Wentz proves me wrong, but I don't think this will end well for him or RR.  I'll need to see more before I give up hope completely but right now, I see another one-read QB who suffers from PRS - Patrick Ramsey Syndrome.  What made him good in the early Philly years was his ability to shake off tackles.  Nobody is scared about him scrambling anymore.  The Dline doesn't have to worry about rush lane discipline.  All of their moves are on the table.  

 

The only way I see this working out is for the team to switch back to a run heavy/play action type attack on offense.  Limit his dropbacks and keep third downs short.  Take some shots off play action.  It's a shame because this might be the best receiving corps since the Fun Bunch.  

 

He's a streaky QB, hot periods, cold periods.  I think on the aggregate he played well the first two games.  My alarm bell for the last game is he played to the script of some of his critics whiich is when the stakes are high in his head he can crumble.

 

My take on Wentz so far is in short is I've seen nothing to sway me he's not the answer or for that matter that he is.  I need to see more.

 

I do agree that he likely never sees his highs from 2017 because like you said then he was very mobile, not so much anymore.

 

On that front, Lions defenders said Wentz was a statue and it made it much easier to get him versus Hurts. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

Reading all of the past several posts, if we lose on Sunday and Wentz looks just as bad as he did this past week, I wonder how a poll of the folks on this site would play out if you asked everyone who they'd like to see start game 5 at QB between Wentz, TH and Howell?

There are so many variables to this that it's really a challenging question moving forward:

- Have we seen enough of CW to know he's not the answer

- Could we ruin Howell if we throw him in too soon? 

- Do we need to find out about Howell heading into next years draft? 

- Do we play Wentz regardless and risk losing our 2nd round pick next season?

- Is the QB play holding this team back from reaching it's potential?

- Is the offensive line really this bad or is the QB making them look worse than they really are?

- Can Wentz recover from a 1-3 start and lead the team to the playoffs? 

- Does TH's knowledge of the offense make him worth a try over the struggling Wentz?

- Will RR be too worried about Wentz psyche to risk pulling him for one of the other QB's?

- What do the players think?

Another bad loss this Sunday, which I'm expecting, and we may be reaching the point of having to address many of these questions moving forward. I keep going back to Frank Reich and Wentz in Indy; no one had more faith in being able to save Wentz then Frank Reich did and they blew the playoffs when some thought they were one of the more dangerous teams in the AFC at one point. If Reich couldn't save Wentz how can RR and Turner? 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

It’s week 4.

 

They are not and should not be looking to play any other QB than Wentz.  We are nowhere near the marker that determines a 2nd/3rd round pick.

 

 

[Warhead36]

Im not sitting Wentz until we’re mathematically eliminated 

[SpacePenguin]

25 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Reading all of the past several posts, if we lose on Sunday and Wentz looks just as bad as he did this past week, I wonder how a poll of the folks on this site would play out if you asked everyone who they'd like to see start game 5 at QB between Wentz, TH and Howell?

There are so many variables to this that it's really a challenging question moving forward:

- Have we seen enough of CW to know he's not the answer

- Could we ruin Howell if we throw him in too soon? 

- Do we need to find out about Howell heading into next years draft? 

- Do we play Wentz regardless and risk losing our 2nd round pick next season?

- Is the QB play holding this team back from reaching it's potential?

- Is the offensive line really this bad or is the QB making them look worse than they really are?

- Can Wentz recover from a 1-3 start and lead the team to the playoffs? 

- Does TH's knowledge of the offense make him worth a try over the struggling Wentz?

- Will RR be too worried about Wentz psyche to risk pulling him for one of the other QB's?

- What do the players think?

Another bad loss this Sunday, which I'm expecting, and we may be reaching the point of having to address many of these questions moving forward. I keep going back to Frank Reich and Wentz in Indy; no one had more faith in being able to save Wentz then Frank Reich did and they blew the playoffs when some thought they were one of the more dangerous teams in the AFC at one point. If Reich couldn't save Wentz how can RR and Turner? 

 

You, zcommander, and a couple of other Heinekens would want the one true answer to play. Some others would want Howell. Most would just tune out, considering the season lost.

 

I think the third group would be the most sensible, and also the saddest. Whomp Whomp.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Man, we’re now all the way down to a conspiracy that Heineke never even had the chance to start over Fitz because Fitz was making $10M.  
 

This year we only got Wentz because they had to have a “name” to go with the brand.

 

The stuff folks will convince themselves of just to fit the narrative they’ve built in their mind is something else I tell ya.

 

Carson Wentz was far from a name to put butts in seats.  There was no QB avail to us that puts butts in seats.  The hope was that they could get Carson back to a place where he could potentially put butts back in the seats.  Something they had determined Heineke will never be able to do.  It’s that simple.

 

I am sorry you see it as conspiracy. To me it is was more logical from business and football side. Maybe, because, I am a business owner and see things from all aspect of an operation.

 

They got someone to replace the unknown with Fitz. That one is pretty clear choice there. No conspiracy. This year they could have rolled with TH or even gotten Mariota or Jimmy for a lot less but they paid more for Wentz. Why? This year the only thing I can think of is the rebrand. Flashy QB to go with the new name. I wouldn't put that past Dan's ego. Why not just say screw 2022 and lets get the lines fixed and then drop a QB from the better QB class in 2023. We had the problem with OL last year towards the end of the season and need to fortify middle and the backfield of the D. Why wasn't that addressed in the offseason? Did we run out of money because they paid a lot to get Wentz? They couldn't keep Collins because of money and Collins didn't want to restructure, for example. So far it looks like it wasn't worth it. Yes I know it has only been 3 games. We better win in Dallas on Sunday. It could get ugly real fast. 

 

I hope Wentz proves me wrong and it was worth it. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

20 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

You, zcommander, and a couple of other Heinekens would want the one true answer to play. Some others would want Howell. Most would just tune out, considering the season lost.

 

I think the third group would be the most sensible, and also the saddest. Whomp Whomp.

I’d be in my own group that’s sad, but neutral to who starts, hoping a 1-3 start can be turned around (after all, they DID manage to get from 2-6 to 6-6 after everyone wrote them off completely, so there’s that I guess)

[kingdaddy]

28 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

You, zcommander, and a couple of other Heinekens would want the one true answer to play. Some others would want Howell. Most would just tune out, considering the season lost.

 

I think the third group would be the most sensible, and also the saddest. Whomp Whomp.

You would be wrong. I'd be happy with either Howell or TH as long as Howell is ready. 

[SpacePenguin]

13 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

I’d be in my own group that’s sad, but neutral to who starts, hoping a 1-3 start can be turned around (after all, they DID manage to get from 2-6 to 6-6 after everyone wrote them off completely, so there’s that I guess)

 

And here I thought you were finally broken. Good for you!

 

I don't think a run to end the season would be that out of the ordinary, only that scraping together 8 or 9 wins to maybe limp into the playoffs doesn't mean much to me at this point. All it would likely do is lead to another year of the same.

7 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

You would be wrong. I'd be happy with either Howell or TH as long as Howell is ready. 

 

Your words say no, but your post history says HEINICKE (It's all good, dude. I'm just messing around lol...you could put Jesus Christ behind this current OL and he'd still get spooked)

 

No clue how I still don't know how to multiquote on here. My age is showing I guess.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by SpacePenguin

[Cooleyfan1993]

5 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

And here I thought you were finally broken. Good for you!

 

I don't think a run to end the season would be that out of the ordinary, only that scraping together 8 or 9 wins to maybe scrape into the playoffs doesn't mean much to me at this point. All it would likely do is lead to another year of the same.

I’m definitely broken, I’m not saying a 1-3 season would actually be turned around. Just that I’d hope it could, while completely knowing it can’t 😂 and Im

with ya, scraping into the playoffs wouldn’t mean much to me either. We’d lose to a way better team and not have a high enough draft pick to change much (not that it would matter with this clownshow organization anyway) 

[stoshuaj]

9 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

You would be wrong. I'd be happy with either Howell or TH as long as Howell is ready. 

What would you lead you to believe that Howell, a 5th round draft pick with a half-ass camp, relatively zero 1st team reps, behind this sieve of an O-line, to be anywhere close to ready in a manner that wouldn’t actually be more likely to be detrimental to his potential for success?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

24 minutes ago, zCommander said:

Flashy QB to go with the new name.

But Wentz isn’t a flashy QB.  He was simply the best available option to them that has the necessary tools to play the position.  
 

He doesn’t sell tix.

 

Russell Wilson sells tix.  Aaron Rodgers sells tix.   There is a good chance that Derek Carr could sell tix.

 

I understand the strategy.  Of course it makes sense to want a splashy QB to sell tickets in the midst of the rebrand.  It’s just Wentz doesn’t do that on his own.  He would need to get back to where he was 5 years ago to accomplish that.

 

The sole reason they brought in Wentz is because Ron believe this team could compete now.  He knows the team needs a QB and there were no plug and plays in the draft.  One can argue with Ron’s assessment of whether this team is actually ready to compete, that is totally fair.  But not for a second was Wentz brought here to sell jerseys.  He’s just not that dude and hasn’t been for a long time.

 

I’ll also add that if a $28M QB contract so drastically impacts the teams ability to be involved in free agency, it’s got bigger problems than the QB salary.  There are zero legitimate reasons that this team can ill afford to add talent because of that contract.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Reading all of the past several posts, if we lose on Sunday and Wentz looks just as bad as he did this past week, I wonder how a poll of the folks on this site would play out if you asked everyone who they'd like to see start game 5 at QB between Wentz, TH and Howell?

There are so many variables to this that it's really a challenging question moving forward:

- Have we seen enough of CW to know he's not the answer

- Could we ruin Howell if we throw him in too soon? 

- Do we need to find out about Howell heading into next years draft? 

- Do we play Wentz regardless and risk losing our 2nd round pick next season?

- Is the QB play holding this team back from reaching it's potential?

- Is the offensive line really this bad or is the QB making them look worse than they really are?

- Can Wentz recover from a 1-3 start and lead the team to the playoffs? 

- Does TH's knowledge of the offense make him worth a try over the struggling Wentz?

- Will RR be too worried about Wentz psyche to risk pulling him for one of the other QB's?

- What do the players think?

Another bad loss this Sunday, which I'm expecting, and we may be reaching the point of having to address many of these questions moving forward. I keep going back to Frank Reich and Wentz in Indy; no one had more faith in being able to save Wentz then Frank Reich did and they blew the playoffs when some thought they were one of the more dangerous teams in the AFC at one point. If Reich couldn't save Wentz how can RR and Turner? 

 

There's absolutely no chance they replace Wentz with Heinicke unless Wentz is injured. None. They were desperate for the last 2 seasons to find someone to replace TH. They clearly don't think he's a starting caliber NFL QB.

 

I think they'll roll with Wentz for the season, barring injury. Howell is talented but likely not ready yet, and Heinicke is a pure backup who's ok in spot duty but not as a long term starter.

 

26 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I am sorry you see it as conspiracy. To me it is was more logical from business and football side. Maybe, because, I am a business owner and see things from all aspect of an operation.

 

They got someone to replace the unknown with Fitz. That one is pretty clear choice there. No conspiracy. This year they could have rolled with TH or even gotten Mariota or Jimmy for a lot less but they paid more for Wentz. Why? This year the only thing I can think of is the rebrand. Flashy QB to go with the new name. I wouldn't put that past Dan's ego. Why not just say screw 2022 and lets get the lines fixed and then drop a QB from the better QB class in 2023. We had the problem with OL last year towards the end of the season and need to fortify middle and the backfield of the D. Why wasn't that addressed in the offseason? Did we run out of money because they paid a lot to get Wentz? They couldn't keep Collins because of money and Collins didn't want to restructure, for example. So far it looks like it wasn't worth it. Yes I know it has only been 3 games. We better win in Dallas on Sunday. It could get ugly real fast. 

 

I hope Wentz proves me wrong and it was worth it. 

 

Can you at least entertain the possibility that one of the main reasons Fitz got the nod over Heinicke is that Fitz is just a better QB? It's weird that you seem to basically be dismissing that possibility.

 

This sort of stuff is why nobody believes you when you say you're "impartial" about QBs.