The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[CobraCommander]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

Would you rather I talk about Hieny instead? 😂

Lol. I guess this is the official commanders QB thread after all.

[TheShredder]

Wentz benefits from a good running game. He makes great plays off of play-action and finds deep routes that develop late, often.
I would caution those that think Turners offense suddenly starts throwing deep down field right off the bat. They have to establish the run and exploit the short game to get teams out of deep route covers. I'd expect them to do more of what they've done, just better, as there were plenty of deep opportunities that TH couldn't reach or attempt from limits in ball speed and distance. Wentz will be able to throw open WRs who win deep and hit them going into the endzone vs having to come back for the ball.

 

The Running Game is the key.

[Wyvern]

14 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Wentz benefits from a good running game. He makes great plays off of play-action and finds deep routes that develop late, often.
I would caution those that think Turners offense suddenly starts throwing deep down field right off the bat. They have to establish the run and exploit the short game to get teams out of deep route covers. I'd expect them to do more of what they've done, just better, as there were plenty of deep opportunities that TH couldn't reach or attempt from limits in ball speed and distance. Wentz will be able to throw open WRs who win deep and hit them going into the endzone vs having to come back for the ball.

 

The Running Game is the key.

Actually,  Washington is going to need to see what its 2022 offensive line can be relied on to provide for the running game, as well as a pocket in pass protection for the longer-developing passing plays.  There are a lot of new parts on the O-line, some coming back from injury, and a lot of new pairings on both sides of center.  

 

That said, the running game will be important to keep Wentz in manageable conversion situations, until the long-downfield opportunities present themselves.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Wyvern said:

Actually,  Washington is going to need to see what its 2022 offensive line can be relied on to provide for the running game, as well as a pocket in pass protection for the longer-developing passing plays.  There are a lot of new parts on the O-line, some coming back from injury, and a lot of new pairings on both sides of center.  

 

That said, the running game will be important to keep Wentz in manageable conversion situations, until the long-downfield opportunities present themselves.

The two guys we brought in are run blocking maulers familiar with the system.

[TheShredder]

I changed my thoughts about Sam Howell.

 

Initially, after the pick, there's always commentary about 'the steal of the draft' and this kind of nonsense. My feeling was taking a shot on Sam Howell in the 5th round was perfect because he looks like a Baker Mayfield clone. I watched a few breakdowns (YT QB school, etc.) on him, over his college career to see why he dropped. What changed for Howell was his team, which forced him to change his game...sort of similar circumstances as Wentz with PHI. Howell's supporting cast on offense his Senior season was untalented. In 2020, PHI roster was also untalented. The QB breakdowns by Kurt Warner changed my perception about Howell and gives some evidence that he's probably the ideal development QB for WSH.

 

[philibusters]

Kurt Warner is incorrect when he says he played well his sophomore and juniors years, then declined as a senior.     Howell only played three years in college (he graduated from HS in 2019 and won't turn 22 until September).  He should have said Howell played well his freshman and sophomore year, and then declined a bit his junior year.

[Wyvern]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

The two guys we brought in are run blocking maulers familiar with the system.

Additions, who were somehow, released by their team.  And lets not forget they are not used to the players working next to them .  Koolblue13, you've made many great posts -- but I'd hope you'd acknowledge that Washington was looking for economical replacements for Scherff & Flowers.  And we need to see how well they, and their accompanying teammates do.

[Koolblue13]

57 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Additions, who were somehow, released by their team.  And lets not forget they are not used to the players working next to them .  Koolblue13, you've made many great posts -- but I'd hope you'd acknowledge that Washington was looking for economical replacements for Scherff & Flowers.  And we need to see how well they, and their accompanying teammates do.

That's fair, but in Matkso I trust. Last year we had different guys in and out every week and were firmly planted in the top 10 all year. Scherff only plays half the time and we had/have the money to resign Flowers if we wanted to.

 

Oline is the unit that I'm least concerned about going into this year, but I do expect some growing pains and them to excel as the year goes on.

 

I expect us to ram the ball down some teams throats early, so that'll help.

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, Wyvern said:

That said, the running game will be important to keep Wentz in manageable conversion situations, until the long-downfield opportunities present themselves.

God I hope that's not how we structure the offense.  

 

Go deep early and often.  Stretch the field on early downs.  I'm not suggesting we throw bombs on every first down, but I bloody well hope we do not run on first downs with any degree of consistency.  The analytics have proven running on first down is a pretty bad idea overall.  It should be mixed in, but not relied on.

 

I don't care about manageable conversion situations.  I want points.  Points come out of the passing game.  They don't need 3rd and shorts, they need to pick up first downs on first and second down.

 

They need to pass first and run for balance and to show physicality. 

 

Running to set up the pass or deep ball is so 1980's.  I want none of that.  Unleash the hounds.  YOLO.  **** it, I'm going deep.  Give it to me all day.    

[mistertim]

I think some people are making a bit too much out of us losing Scherff. He was a good player, but only had one elite year and was injured every single season since 2016. Last season even when he played he wasn't our best offensive lineman. He was only decent last year, and was again hampered by injuries.

 

I liked Scherff as a player, and seemed like a good dude and hard worker, but I don't think we're losing a ton with him gone. The other guys who played either on the other side of his spot or in place of him last season were just as good. I'm glad we didn't give up a king's ransom to re-sign him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, philibusters said:

Kurt Warner is incorrect when he says he played well his sophomore and juniors years, then declined as a senior.     Howell only played three years in college (he graduated from HS in 2019 and won't turn 22 until September).  He should have said Howell played well his freshman and sophomore year, and then declined a bit his junior year.

Yeah, ok, slight booboo but you know what he meant. 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I think some people are making a bit too much out of us losing Scherff. He was a good player, but only had one elite year and was injured every single season since 2016. Last season even when he played he wasn't our best offensive lineman. He was only decent last year, and was again hampered by injuries.

 

I liked Scherff as a player, and seemed like a good dude and hard worker, but I don't think we're losing a ton with him gone. The other guys who played either on the other side of his spot or in place of him last season were just as good. I'm glad we didn't give up a king's ransom to re-sign him.

You lose elite athletic ability, and his ability to take out 2-3 guys on any given play and reach the second level of the defense routinely.  He really was very, very good.  When healthy.  

 

I'm slightly concerned about the OL not because of Scherff specifically, but I do have a concern about having possibly 3 new interior OL on opening day, if Rouiller is not ready.  I think he should be, but nobody has said he WILL be.  Add to that Cosmi didn't show to be very durable in his rookie campaign.

 

I do trust Masko, and I like the guys they brought in.  I do think you lose something without Scherff, but I think that something is overcomable.

 

There is no way I would pay $18m to a guard. I'm glad Jacksonville did. Guard just isn't a position where you need to spend that type of money to get very good players.  But there is a reason he is paid at the top of the market, and that's because he's one of the best 2-3 at his position.  

[philibusters]

In terms of Scherff he played 1070 and 1045 snaps his first two years in the league (2015 and 2016).  Since then he has never reached a 1000 with his highest 867 in 2017 his third year in the league.   PFF grades him as a good player, but in his entire career they have only graded one season above 80 though he did have a 79.8 grade in another season which is about as close as you can get to 80 without hitting it.  He was a very good player but not elite and had injuries problems.   Losing him probably is a downgrade, but given the money he got, we absolutely made the right move in my opinion.

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

There is no way I would pay $18m to a guard. I'm glad Jacksonville did. Guard just isn't a position where you need to spend that type of money to get very good players.  But there is a reason he is paid at the top of the market, and that's because he's one of the best 2-3 at his position.  

 

The thing about Scherff is he was consistently good, like a top 10-15 guard year in and out, but the only year where he graded as a top 2 or 3 guard in the league was the year he graded out at 85.  That said consistency does mean something.  His lowest year was like a 73.   Other guys will have a 86 then 64, Scheff was very consistent.

Edited July 11, 2022 by philibusters

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, ok, slight booboo but you know what he meant. 

You lose elite athletic ability, and his ability to take out 2-3 guys on any given play and reach the second level of the defense routinely.  He really was very, very good.  When healthy.  

 

I'm slightly concerned about the OL not because of Scherff specifically, but I do have a concern about having possibly 3 new interior OL on opening day, if Rouiller is not ready.  I think he should be, but nobody has said he WILL be.  Add to that Cosmi didn't show to be very durable in his rookie campaign.

 

I do trust Masko, and I like the guys they brought in.  I do think you lose something without Scherff, but I think that something is overcomable.

 

There is no way I would pay $18m to a guard. I'm glad Jacksonville did. Guard just isn't a position where you need to spend that type of money to get very good players.  But there is a reason he is paid at the top of the market, and that's because he's one of the best 2-3 at his position.  

 

I think Scherff was certainly good, but IMO he was never at all on the level of true elite Guards like Nelson and Martin or even Bitonio. Some of that was because he had so many injury problems, but some of it is because he's just not on their level in general. I don't think our OL is going to suddenly decline because he's gone. He's not leaving a huge and almost impossible to fill hole like Trent did.

Edited July 11, 2022 by mistertim

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

I think Scherff was certainly good, but IMO he was never at all on the level of true elite Guards like Nelson and Martin or even Bitonio. Some of that was because he had so many injury problems, but some of it is because he's just not on their level in general. I don't think our OL is going to suddenly decline because he's gone. He's not leaving a hole like Trent did.

Yeah, it's the number of moving pieces that has me more worried than any one of them individually.  

10 minutes ago, philibusters said:

The thing about Scherff is he was consistently good, like a top 10-15 guard year in and out, but the only year where he graded as a top 2 or 3 guard in the league was the year he graded out at 85.  That said consistency does mean something.  His lowest year was like a 73.   Other guys will have a 86 then 64, Scheff was very consistent.

Please tell me you are not using PFF's meaningless and rotten OL grades for this analysis.  

 

Madden ratings might be better.  

[Wyvern]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Unleash the hounds.  YOLO.  **** it, I'm going deep.  Give it to me all day.    

Wow... Voice of Reason....Not exactly a 'Reasoned' approach. And a misinterpretation of what I was saying.

 

I'm not going to waste my time arguing the merits of the value of a running game vs. passing game. You could spend all day with eloquent arguments justifying your view. Mine was simply that both are tools one uses to attack a defense, to keep them of balance and honest, and most importantly stuck on the field while you tire them out.

 

But understand that deeper pass plays require more time to develop and better pass protection to capture the time needed. Wishing for a long-bomb completion on 3-&-10, with the defense's triggered for the QB sack and rest of the enemy's  D protecting vs. the pass -- is not always reasonable expectation. And attempting surprise long bombs on first & 10, often lead to 3rd and long situations.

 

But keepng focus on the point I was trying to make,  my comment was about whether the O-line, with a lot of new folks plus a center returning from IR, would be capable of supporting either type of play that Turner dials up.  I think that's a reasonable concern, especially as Wentz doesn't seem to do well when his pass protection breaks down from the center-guard section of his pass-pro pocket. He doesn't scramble laterally as well as he did in 2017.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Wyvern

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Please tell me you are not using PFF's meaningless and rotten OL grades for this analysis.  

 

Madden ratings might be better.  

 

I know you don't really like them for OL but I think PFF's OL ranking system is actually decent because they do a pretty good job of separating out the individual lineman from everything else so they can evaluate him without taking into account the overall success of the offense. It's just about whether he carried out his assignments and won his battles, etc.

[Skinsinparadise]

Digesting Wentz, this is a point he needs to improve on which is holding on to the ball too long at times. 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Digesting Wentz, this is a point he needs to improve on which is holding on to the ball too long at times. 

 

 

 

I can see why he didn't trust his receivers the last few years. Hopefully now he will and I'm assuming that his offseason work going on now will help.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I can see why he didn't trust his receivers the last few years. Hopefully now he will and I'm assuming that his offseason work going on now will help.

 

Digesting narratives, Wentz likes to wait for a big play to develop and he lives and dies by that sword.    Feels like based on what has been said here and also by beat guys, the idea with Wentz from Zampese is to ride Wentz's strengths and let it play out.  I think it has a decent shot of working out considering the weapons here.

 

I was listening to Keim on Sheehan this morning.  Some tidbits and sorry some go outside the offense but what they heck I got to post this somewhere.

 

A.  Sheehan has heard from sources within the team that they think Dotson can be even better than Terry, they are extremely high on him.

 

B.  Keim doesn't think Chase is ready to start the season -- probably misses give or take 3-4 games.

 

C.  He didn't go heavy on this point in that segment but he has in others so piercing that together -- Del Rio learned last season that the front 4 isn't good enough to win on their own consistently.  This isn't like for example the NY Giants D line in their SB runs where they won with 4 and were able to cover with 7.  But that discovery he thinks will help the defense because Del Rio learned that being creative with blitzes is needed to help the front 4.  In other segments, Keim has mentioned that them going back to a heavier zone defense helped the defense rebound last year.  His point is he thinks discovering those two variables will help the defense this year -- he didn't hit either point hard in this segment but has previously.

 

D.  Logan Thomas he has more confidence could start this season than he thinks Chase could -- but thinks he probably misses some games, too.

 

E.  He expects Wentz to be a major improvement over Heinicke

Edited July 11, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[DeaconBlue]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Digesting Wentz, this is a point he needs to improve on which is holding on to the ball too long at times. 

 

 

Wow. That tweet should be posted to r/suspiciouslyspecific...

Wow. That tweet should be posted to r/suspiciouslyspecific....

Edited July 11, 2022 by DeaconBlue
Formatting

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Look, I’m as hopeful about Wentz as anyone on ES. But I think there has to be a limit to the excuses we make to justify his poor play in the past.

 

He certainly looked better last season, but his final campaign with Philthy was not good. It had nothing to do with trusting his receivers, poor play calling, etc.

 

He was simply a hot mess who lost all confidence and played terrible

football. I remember watching a game or two and couldn’t believe how awful he had become. Slow reads, poor judgment, taking sacks, throwing picks…it was abysmal.

 

Let’s all root for Carson. But let’s not pretend he didn’t flat out stink for a stretch. 

[Mrshadow008]

15 hours ago, Wyvern said:

Additions, who were somehow, released by their team.  And lets not forget they are not used to the players working next to them .  Koolblue13, you've made many great posts -- but I'd hope you'd acknowledge that Washington was looking for economical replacements for Scherff & Flowers.  And we need to see how well they, and their accompanying teammates do.

This is assuming that both of those additions start. I'm not convinced Turner starts at guard if Roullier is healthy. Right now Turner is getting starter reps because Wes Schweitzer is having to fill in for Roullier at C. Schweitzer at one point was rated higher than Scherff by both espn and pff before he got injured. Schweitzer also has at least some chemistry playing with Cosmi from filling in for Scherff. 

[Warhead36]

31 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Look, I’m as hopeful about Wentz as anyone on ES. But I think there has to be a limit to the excuses we make to justify his poor play in the past.

 

He certainly looked better last season, but his final campaign with Philthy was not good. It had nothing to do with trusting his receivers, poor play calling, etc.

 

He was simply a hot mess who lost all confidence and played terrible

football. I remember watching a game or two and couldn’t believe how awful he had become. Slow reads, poor judgment, taking sacks, throwing picks…it was abysmal.

 

Let’s all root for Carson. But let’s not pretend he didn’t flat out stink for a stretch. 

You're not wrong. Wentz was terrible his last season in Philly. But that's looking mostly like an aberration right now. He was mostly pretty decent last year, with stretches of scorcing hot play and stretches of poor play(basically Cousins-esque, but a better athlete). 

 

2020 Wentz would be a downgrade from Heinicke, but Wentz at his average form is a significant upgrade.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

 

 

Let’s all root for Carson. But let’s not pretend he didn’t flat out stink for a stretch. 

You can tuck that nonsense back between your legs until October. Its july and our time to shine, so until everything goes wrong again and his leg pops off.....

[Mrshadow008]

21 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You can tuck that nonsense back between your legs until October. Its july and our time to shine, so until everything goes wrong again and his leg pops off.....

Reading your post this is all I could think about 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mrshadow008