The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Alexa]

33 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He's thrown for 33 once and 27 twice and this is easily the best offense that he'll have ever been in. I think 35 is definitely pushing it. That would be incredible, but I wouldn't say no chance. Just long shot

That was then, this is now. Big difference between 27 and 35. 

 

Not trying to knock Wentz, it was the best Ron could do but I just don't see it working out here. This isn't the place to come to re-start your career. I don't think Wentz is a bad guy or anything, I just don't that much of him as a QB at this point. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, Alexa said:

That was then, this is now. Big difference between 27 and 35. 

 

Not trying to knock Wentz, it was the best Ron could do but I just don't see it working out here. This isn't the place to come to re-start your career. I don't think Wentz is a bad guy or anything, I just don't that much of him as a QB at this point. 

That's news to me, considering you were up in here blabbing about how awful of a trade this was because "for every player that likes him, there are two that hate him".  

 

I never forget, and I'm still waiting for you to prove that - and here you are, abandoning that narrative and hunkering down with he's just not a good QB now.  🤣

[mistertim]

I was concerned both with Wentz's play at the end of the season as well as reports of personality issues. However, after reading more and getting more information I've changed my mind and I'm better with it now. It doesn't mean there are zero flags at all, but I'm not as worried as I was. Irsay looks like a goddamn lunatic.

[DJHJR86]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like listening to Sheehan generally, i think he's a legend as far as local radio here but he's been unbearable and uncharacteristically imbalanced and dishonest on the issue.  

 

I do think @Voice_of_Reason is on to something though with Sheehan in that he's snapped some because of his hatred for Snyder hitting a breaking point and on that front i am sympathetic.  But I am thinking dude don't take it out on Wentz.    Take it out on Dan.  Sheehan likes Rivera and this seems to be purely a Rivera move for Wentz not a Dan move. 

 

I think Sheehan has been generally fair on the issue, but is absolutely stubborn when it comes to the idea that Irsay was the main driving force for getting rid of Wentz after they lost to Jacksonville last year.  

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I think Sheehan has been generally fair on the issue, but is absolutely stubborn when it comes to the idea that Irsay was the main driving force for getting rid of Wentz after they lost to Jacksonville last year.  

 

I've listened to Sheehan almost every day for as long as he's doing radio.  i listen to almost every podcast.  He's an institution as far as I am concerned and I am a big fan of his.  And I generally find him balanced.  But I'd say the last two years he's really gotten sometimes over the top with some of his positions where he's gotten almost a bit Skip Bayless like where he's locked into his position and won't budge no matter what new information comes to light.  And he's become fixated to being "right".  But on Wentz IMO he's been the most flagrant.  

 

A.  He said on his podcast that the PFF guy who came on his show told him Wentz was ranked dead last in throwing turnover worthy throws last year.  Even though the PFF told him he was smack in the middle of the league on that front.  When I heard him say it, I thought i was losing it so I looked it up and yes the PFF guy did say middle of the pack-- that's where he was ranked not dead last.

 

B.  He said on his podcast that the Eagles reporter who came on his show just trashed Wentz more or less.  Even though the dude on the aggregate liked Wentz and actually flat out said he liked the deal from the Commanders standpoint.

 

C.  That same reporter who was on Sheehan's own show said that the Eagles wanted to keep Wentz yet Wentz wanted to be traded.  They tried to keep Wentz.  Sheehan has just ignored that along with 2 other Eagle reporters who have said the same thing in different reports with other media.  And instead he clings to the Eagles couldn't wait to get rid of him.  Better yet, he goes even on the off chance the Colts move was driven by the owner -- the Eagles wanted to get rid of him so that makes it case closed.  OK dude is that so even though the narrative about the Eagles isn't that they couldn't wait to get rid of them -- heck a dude told him directly on his own show that Wentz wanted to leave and the Eagles tried to convince him to stay, 

 

D.  He pretty much ignores the Ballard and Reich statements and clings to the more negative ones and says though you disagree are naive marks.   He mostly cherry picks the negative narratives about Wentz and ignores the positive ones.

 

I am a fan of Sheehan and heck even Loverro.  I still think Sheehan is a good listen.  But I think he is off on the deep end about Wentz.   He can be against a move of course.  It's cool.  But when he's misrepresenting positions from people who appeared on his own show, its both unusual for him, and it also exposes that he really really really has an ax to grind with the Wentz move and I don't think any new information sways him off of that spot. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[CommanderInTheRye]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Wilson and Olave.  I like Drake London even more, seems tailoed made to Wentz skills as for making plays on the 2nd level.  I wish Jamieson Williiams was healthy, he'd be my top guy if he were healthy, 

 

Absolutely! Plus Wilson and Olave are similar to what we have in McLaurin (not that anything's wrong with that).

 

My WR  preference at 11 is London, Wilson and Olave in that order.

 

Drake "the snake"  brings a skill set vastly different from any starting receiver we've had in years. 

 

Wentz, with his preference for big strong wideouts with large catch radiuses, is exactly the qb that can maximize his talent.

 

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 hours ago, zCommander said:

Your narrative is false as they come or maybe you have a short-term memory. The GM said we love TH but we need to upgrade that position.

No.  He said, to quote, "we have a 2." 

 

That by definition means "we don't have a 1."

 

That's the quote.  You can try to spin it any way you want.  The organization knows they don't have a starter on the roster.  That's why they signed Fitz last year, and why they openly courted every single possible option this year, including freaking Andrew Luck.

 

They are not upgrading. You can't upgrade from something that doesn't exist.  Period.  

 

And for what it's worth, I'm not putting words in anybody's mouth.  I have no agenda.  The team had an agenda to find a starting QB because it lacked a starting QB.  It's that simple.

[Darth Tater]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

I was concerned both with Wentz's play at the end of the season as well as reports of personality issues. However, after reading more and getting more information I've changed my mind and I'm better with it now. It doesn't mean there are zero flags at all, but I'm not as worried as I was. Irsay looks like a goddamn lunatic.

The scariest thing is that he was available for so little. There are competing narratives as to why but that is really the only FACT we have. Everything else is speculation, post-event claims and statements that could be just interpreted as just the way you should talk about a guy you hold no personal animosity for.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

PFF guy on Sheehan's show, he doesn't dislike the Wentz deal, Sheehan seems disappointed.  

 

I ran out of things to listen to yesterday so I listened to Sheehan's podcast, and he called anybody who believed there wasn't significant issues with Wentz "a mark" and then insulted them further with some other things.  

 

Galdi said he thinks based on everything which has come out, it seems clear this was owner driven.

 

I have no idea.  

 

I might be in the minority, but given they might have been in the position of the Seahawks or the Panthers, vs. having Wentz, I'm glad they have Wentz, and I'm interested to see what happens.

 

Though I'm not on the "you must get to the NFC Championship game or else it's a failed move" group. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

I ran out of things to listen to yesterday so I listened to Sheehan's podcast, and he called anybody who believed there wasn't significant issues with Wentz "a mark" and then insulted them further with some other things.  

 

 

I am listening to Paulsen right now give a pretty balanced take on everything relating to Wentz and he didn't seem to like the deal initially.  Galdi ditto.  Ditto Finlay.

 

Sheehan is still off the rails on this issue.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I do think @Voice_of_Reason is on to something though with Sheehan in that he's snapped some because of his hatred for Snyder hitting a breaking point and on that front i am sympathetic.  But I am thinking dude don't take it out on Wentz.    Take it out on Dan.  Sheehan likes Rivera and this seems to be purely a Rivera move for Wentz not a Dan move. 

I mean, he does take it out on Dan every chance he gets.  He now just takes it out on everybody else too because he's suffering some form of Continued Traumatic Dan Snyder Stress Syndrome.  

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am listening to Paulsen right now give a pretty balanced take on everything relating to Wentz and he didn't seem to like the deal initially.  Galdi ditto.  Ditto Finlay.

 

Sheehan is still off the rails on this issue.  

Galdi KILLED the move initially.  But he keeps coming back to, "if this was owner driven, the reason WHY the Colts got rid of Wentz is important."  

 

And he seems to have come around to it was owner driven, so maybe THAT part of the trade isn't awful.

 

Sheehan also was insufferable about touting how right he was for giving out all the unders for (I think) the sweet 16?  Maybe the elite 8?  I don't remember.  Actually, I think it was the Sweet 16, because I think 11 of them hit.  

 

I guess i'm the sucker though because I still listened.  (Though, honestly, it was the absolute last thing I had saved to listen to.)

[88Comrade2000]

If it works, we have our 5-7 year qb and maybe have a little success.

 

If it doesn’t, then we clean house and let someone new find the qb in the 23 draft.

[zCommander]

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Ok. So if the QB is playing really well but the rest of the team sucks then the QB is a bust. Somehow I don't think you would take the same stance if it was Heinicke putting up those numbers with the rest of the team sucking.

 

In fact, when Heinicke was putting up ok but very mediocre numbers while the defense sucked during the first half of last season, the Hive was screaming at the top of its lungs that he was definitely the QB of the future and the losses had nothing to do with him so he shouldn't be blamed at all for not putting up better numbers.

 

Wentz should make the offense better since TH was limited by his abilities. Shouldn't that translate to more wins by Wentz and deep playoff/SB run? If the whole team sucks in 2022 then we can do this with TH as the starter. What was the purpose of getting Wentz then? Are you already making excuses for Wentz?  I don't understand the logic here.  

 

8 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't know why you still bother going down the Heini Hole with z.

 

This season, when he starts beating his chest every time Wentz throw an incompletion, I hope it finally starts to come off as trolling and gets banned. 

 

Because @zCommander your posts are just trolling at this point.

 

So I don't agree with you and not in your circle so therefore I am a troll now? I have been here since 2007 and all of a sudden I am a troll now. I can't be extreme but you can?👍

 

7 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’d like to say that I can’t believe I’ve returned to this thread only to find Heineke still being a topic of conversation, but I’m not surprised.  🤣

 

It’s abundantly clear that all this Wentz needs to be the savior, needs to win 14 games, go to the Super Bowl stuff is just advance posturing so z can say he’s not moving the goalposts next season when he poops all over Wentz performances that’s will still undoubtedly be better than anything Heineke is capable of.

 

IF you really understood what I was trying to say you wouldn't make comments like this. What I said had nothing to do with moving goal post. Let me say it one more time, seems like I have been doing that a lot lately..lol..I said if TH can help the team win 7 games then Wetz should be good for at least 12, if not 14, and a SB run. It was a more of a measuring stick. You know how one has expectations. Please don't tell me you don't have certain expectations from Wentz or even the team. We should all be gunning for a SB run. As a fan I don't gun for let's get into the playoffs and go home after losing the first or the 2nd game. 

 

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No.  He said, to quote, "we have a 2." 

 

That by definition means "we don't have a 1."

 

That's the quote.  You can try to spin it any way you want.  The organization knows they don't have a starter on the roster.  That's why they signed Fitz last year, and why they openly courted every single possible option this year, including freaking Andrew Luck.

 

They are not upgrading. You can't upgrade from something that doesn't exist.  Period.  

 

And for what it's worth, I'm not putting words in anybody's mouth.  I have no agenda.  The team had an agenda to find a starting QB because it lacked a starting QB.  It's that simple.

 

Fitz was signed since TH played like what 2 games. It had nothing to do with TH at all. They got rid of their starting QB Haskins and Fitz was brought in to replace him. I have never even brought up Fitz in the manner your talking about - how is that not putting words in my mouth?

 

Andrew Luck? Wait what? You are saying Ron was talking about getting Luck out of retirement or was that more of a fan fiction? Do you have a link?

 

Let's look at what Mayhew actually said: (https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/commanders/martin-mayhew-praises-taylor-heinicke-2021-efforts-wants-upgrade-qb)

 

"I want to say how much I appreciate Taylor Heinicke," Mayhew said. "He had a battlefield promotion. Our starter played 16 snaps last season. He was our backup and played the entire season for us. He did yeoman’s work. One of the hardest working guys that I've been around one of the toughest competitors. So I just think the world of Taylor and really appreciate him."

 

"We are looking to upgrade that position and we're looking at every angle that's possible," Mayhew said. "We're looking at trade possibilities, draft possibilities, free agents. We're looking at everybody."

 

So much for your thinking they were not looking to upgrade the QB position. I don't have an agenda here either. I call it as I see it. I don't expect anyone to see it that way I do. Difference an opinion will always be there. Individuality is what makes us human.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by zCommander

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Wentz should make the offense better since TH was limited by his abilities. Shouldn't that translate to more wins by Wentz and deep playoff/SB run? If the whole team sucks in 2022 then we can do this with TH as the starter. What was the purpose of getting Wentz then? Are you already making excuses for Wentz?  I don't understand the logic here.  

 

 

Sure, in theory he should absolutely make the offense better, but it's impossible to know for sure exactly what the rest of the team will do. That's on offense and defense. And that's why QB evaluation should be done separately from just the team's record. So if things don't go the way you hoped you can then evaluate the positions on their own and try to figure out where the main problems were.

 

The purpose of getting Wentz is to have a QB who's capable of being a legit NFL starter. Heinicke just isn't an NFL starter, as is clear to pretty much everyone outside of the Hive. So what you're basically asking is "What's the purpose of getting a starting QB if you have a backup?" and the answer is...pretty obvious.

 

So the point is that Wentz has the actual potential to be a top 10 QB, and has shown it in the past. Heinicke's potential is as a decent backup or spot starter for a couple of games if your QB1 goes down, as he's shown in the past.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

29 minutes ago, zCommander said:

IF you really understood what I was trying to say you wouldn't make comments like this. What I said had nothing to do with moving goal post. Let me say it one more time, seems like I have been doing that a lot lately..lol..I said if TH can help the team win 7 games then Wetz should be good for at least 12, if not 14, and a SB run. It was a more of a measuring stick. You know how one has expectations. Please don't tell me you don't have certain expectations from Wentz or even the team. We should all be gunning for a SB run. As a fan I don't gun for let's get into the playoffs and go home after losing the first or the 2nd game. 

Every season is it's own entity.  The whole, 'we won this many last year and we got better in the offseason, so we should win more games'  theory has been tested and proven to be faulty here in Washington more times than I'd like to remember.  But that's not just the case here, it happens to a lot of teams.  There are so many variables in play from year to year, that it's impossible to predict - outside of a few teams, that happen to have an elite QB (of which we do not).  

 

My only expectation is that the offense should in theory, be much better than it was.  However, what if the losses of Scherff and Flowers are holes we didn't fill, even though we might think we did right now?  Injuries? Does the defense step up their play?  The schedule is "easy" right now but you never know what happens next season - it wouldn't be the first time we've had an "easy" schedule that turned out to not be so easy.  If you listen to much of the fanbase, they are whining that we aren't making any moves in free agency and believe we're currently worse off now than we were, as to the overall roster.  Maybe they are right?

 

I expect the offense to move the football, be much more entertaining than years past, and score more regularly.  But that's about the cap for my expectations, as their are too many other unknown variables at play right now.

[88Comrade2000]

Just cut TH now and the Hive will wilt.

[Voice_of_Reason]

29 minutes ago, zCommander said:

Fitz was signed since TH played like what 2 games. It had nothing to do with TH at all.

It 100% had to do with they didn’t think they had a QB last year.  Scott Turner knows TH better than anybody.  They still went out and paid $10m for a starter.  Then TH never came close to pushing him in camp. TH is not an NFL caliber starting QB.  If Martin said they had to upgrade, fine.  It’s semantics.  He can’t start.  They know it.  They went to find a starter.  I’m not sure how this is difficult to comprehend.  

 

Martin spoke again at the draft.  It’s on the Al Galdi podcast.  He said “We have a 2.”  Go back through the audio, you’ll find it. 
 

And The Luck comment came from (I think) Ben Standig in the article that they left no stone unturned. I heard Ben talking about it on his podcast.  I think Sheehan even mentioned it.  I believe it was the same article where he outlined Gibbs’ involvement.

 

I consume a lot of audio, nowhere near as much print, so o don’t have links.  

[FootballZombie]

54 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Just cut TH now and the Hive will wilt.

 

Feels like we are doomed to a year of back and forth between the Heinicke Hive and Wentz Waddle.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

I said if TH can help the team win 7 games then Wetz should be good for at least 12, if not 14, and a SB run.

This is ridiculous.  You know that.  You also know that the NFL is a year to year, and a week to week league.

 

You can’t really compare the 2021 team to the 2022 team.  
 

A reasonable expectation is they improve.  We still don’t know how good the defense is going to be, who’s going to play MLB, if Chase Young or Logan Thomas are going to be back from injury, and what contribution Samuel will have.  
 

The expectation has to be we get top half of the league QB play.  You can rate that however you really want to.  I like QBR as a general metric, and also look at the PFF grades.  Most often that turns into wins but not always because teams also have to play defense and special teams.
 

If they get top half of the league QB play, which is what Wentz had last year, they should be better.  
 

But there are 53 guys on the team.  

And I agree the record should be better because they should get better QB lay because honestly, they got a lot of really, really bad QB play last season.  
 

But taking a 5-7 games jump is ridiculous.  No QB except probably Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady are worth 5-7 games.  None.  Not even Wilson, Carr, Watson, etc.  and we’re not getting one of those guys.

 

We’re getting a second tier starting QB.  That’s still a starting QB.  But not an elite QB.  
 

That should translate to 3 or so more wins.  But we’ll see. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

21 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Feels like we are doomed to a year of back and forth between the Heinicke Hive and Wentz Waddle.

I mean in fairness there are like 4 active Hive posters.

 

And I’m not sure anybody is in on Wentz other than “gee I hope to hell this works…”

[kingdaddy]

6 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No.  He said, to quote, "we have a 2." 

 

That by definition means "we don't have a 1."

 

That's the quote.  You can try to spin it any way you want.  The organization knows they don't have a starter on the roster.  That's why they signed Fitz last year, and why they openly courted every single possible option this year, including freaking Andrew Luck.

 

They are not upgrading. You can't upgrade from something that doesn't exist.  Period.  

 

And for what it's worth, I'm not putting words in anybody's mouth.  I have no agenda.  The team had an agenda to find a starting QB because it lacked a starting QB.  It's that simple.

Wentz was ranked 6 spots ahead of TH this past season in QB rankings......it remains to be seen if he's an upgrade or a downgrade from TH. We all hope he's an upgrade but we'll all have to see how this plays out. Wentz hasn't won anything in his career and is very injury prone. Also, TH was playing in his 1st season as an NFL starter and did very well considering all of the intangibles stacked against him. You dislike him so you trash him.....don't be surprised if he steps in and wins games for us next season because Wentz is likely to miss games. ....

Period. 

And if the team thought TH was so bad they wouldve kept Allen and moved on from TH. They like him and know he's a bargain at his salary. It's allowing them to sign other players...period.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I don’t need to hope Wentz is an upgrade.  Period.

 

It doesn’t remain to be seen.

Period.

 

🤣

[zCommander]

17 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It 100% had to do with they didn’t think they had a QB last year.  Scott Turner knows TH better than anybody.  They still went out and paid $10m for a starter.  Then TH never came close to pushing him in camp. TH is not an NFL caliber starting QB.  If Martin said they had to upgrade, fine.  It’s semantics.  He can’t start.  They know it.  They went to find a starter.  I’m not sure how this is difficult to comprehend.  

 

Martin spoke again at the draft.  It’s on the Al Galdi podcast.  He said “We have a 2.”  Go back through the audio, you’ll find it. 
 

And The Luck comment came from (I think) Ben Standig in the article that they left no stone unturned. I heard Ben talking about it on his podcast.  I think Sheehan even mentioned it.  I believe it was the same article where he outlined Gibbs’ involvement.

 

I consume a lot of audio, nowhere near as much print, so o don’t have links.  

 

Turner brought him in as the emergency coviid QB. Again nothing to do with Fitz coming here because they didn't think of TH as the starter. He was signed with a role in mind. Fitz was paid $10 mil, which I thought at the time was high even for 1 year, unfortunately it turned to be flushing 10 mil down the drain. Also keep in mind Ron is still the head coach and Turner still has to listen to him and cross T's and I's and that is how it should be anyway. The coach has to do what he think is the right move for the team. 

 

As for the training camp, TH said himself he doesn't play well in training camp. The stuff TH does on the field, like houdini acts, is something you are not going to see in training camp. But even if TH looked better than Fitz there was no way in hell he was going to start over Fitz who they just paid 10mil to get. Not sure why you can't see that. I saw it as clear as day and night and even said so last year when some said what if TH. 

 

I liked what I saw in the playoff game and wondered if Fitz was a mistake. It made sense to get Fitz but I just didn't like the move though as what I really wanted was to get a QB in draft instead. And we could have done that if Ron hadn't signed Fitz. We could have had Mac Jones and It saddens me to think what we could have had if it wasn't for we are going to the SB mentality with our stout D mentality. Ron really thought he was a QB away. Same story this year. This is why I am saying with Wentz that hasn't changed. You guys are not seeing it. I do. 

 

As for Luck, I missed it, but I did find the reason why his name even came up. Gibbs having a pow-wow with Ron and looking at every QB playing or non-playing. They wanted to make sure every option box was checked. I guess there is nothing wrong with that. I am sure they also thought about Rivers as well.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Wentz was ranked 6 spots ahead of TH this past season in QB rankings......it remains to be seen if he's an upgrade or a downgrade from TH. We all hope he's an upgrade but we'll all have to see how this plays out. Wentz hasn't won anything in his career and is very injury prone. Also, TH was playing in his 1st season as an NFL starter and did very well considering all of the intangibles stacked against him. You dislike him so you trash him.....don't be surprised if he steps in and wins games for us next season because Wentz is likely to miss games. ....

Period. 

And if the team thought TH was so bad they wouldve kept Allen and moved on from TH. They like him and know he's a bargain at his salary. It's allowing them to sign other players...period.

 

 

This is truly next level, upper echelon delusional. I kinda forgot what it was like having the full-on Heinicke Hive nutso treatment, what with Z man now trying to pretend he's some sort of unbiased observer of QBs. Takes me back, man...takes me back.

[Koolblue13]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

This is truly next level, upper echelon delusional. I kinda forgot what it was like having the full-on Heinicke Hive nutso treatment, what with Z man now trying to pretend he's some sort of unbiased observer of QBs. Takes me back, man...takes me back.

Amazed he took a break from defending Guise tbh