The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Simmsy]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

Could we please stop pretending like we overpaid for wentz, quarterbacks are expensive. 

If a guy accused of sexualy assaulting 23 women while the consequences of that are still very much up in the air, and also missed an entire year of football is still worth 3 firsts a 3rd and two 4th's plus 46 million a year guaranteed for 5 years then a 29 year old with a 4 to 1 td to interception ratio last year is without question worth a 3rd and most likely a second. 

 

Look at it this way.

Which scenario do you think gives us the best chance of having a good quarterback. 

Getting wentz or drafting a quarterback in the 3rd round this year and the second or possibly 3rd next year?

 

Since so few post 1st round quarterbacks succeed in the nfl I think the answer is obvious. 

 

The narrative that the media is pushing on Watson has suddenly changed, I really think its because he went to the Browns. No sports analyst that I heard before questioned Watson's character. They questioned whether he would be charged, whether he would be suspended, but never if he was actually guilty or a good person. As soon as he went to the Browns, it went from "He'll make any team better" to "The Browns are a disgusting organization. I'm not defending Watson, I'm glad he didn't come here, but as with Wentz, the media is trying to play up some drama.

[wit33]

 

2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

From what I am seeing, ATL eats the dead cap and G money. The Colts could cut Ryan right now for no penalty, let alone next season. He has no G money at all in his contract w/ the Colts.

https://overthecap.com/player/matt-ryan/823/

 

 

Wentz has a lot of G money this year, but after that its all un-g I believe.

 

Wentz has zero guarantees left on his deal. Guarantees don’t transfer from team to team, so Philly is the one who ate all of his guarantees when traded. 

[FootballZombie]

15 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Wentz has zero guarantees left on his deal. Guarantees don’t transfer from team to team, so Philly is the one who ate all of his guarantees when traded. 

 

I don't think it works that way w/ Wentz

His deal has 22M in G money this year. The Colts didn't pay any of his salary

 

 

https://overthecap.com/player/carson-wentz/4715/

 

[MisterPinstripe]

Wentz rookie year his QBR was in the 40s, perhaps not surprising for a rookie. Second year he was 1st, his third year he was 12th, and his fourth year he was 11th. We all know his 5th year was rough and again I think in the 40s. He followed that up last year at the Colts with 9th in QBR.

 

Plenty of good QBs struggle in their rookie season so Im not holding that against him. Joe Burrow I think was also in the 40s his rookie year. Outside of that he has been top 12 every year except for one. With no star receivers. I think we are in for a fun season and will be grateful to have him under contract for 3 more years at a bargain price for a QB. This is the first time I have gone into a season knowing we have a starting QB moving forward. He's not an elite top 3 or a top 5 QB, but he is for sure top 15 and could play like a top 5 which would be a blast to watch. I think in the end we got lucky that covid impacted the Colts season at the end and gave us a gift.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Saints gave Winston 28 million over 2 years with 21 guaranteed?  That seems like a lot for the type of QB he is.

[skins4ever28]

I would have much rather had matt Ryan over wentz. Browns won this tho. Sorry, whether you hate the guy or not, Watson was the most amazing quarterback I had ever seen that had a crap team. 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I don't think it works that way w/ Wentz

His deal has 22M in G money this year. The Colts didn't pay any of his salary

 

 

https://overthecap.com/player/carson-wentz/4715/

 

Gotcha. Looks like you’re right. It was much easier to lump all guarantees into one category of the new team not being responsible lol More nuance seems to exist. Maybe Colts did something to his contract when got him in a trade. I see what you’re saying now though. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

2 hours ago, Simmsy said:

 

The narrative that the media is pushing on Watson has suddenly changed, I really think its because he went to the Browns. No sports analyst that I heard before questioned Watson's character. They questioned whether he would be charged, whether he would be suspended, but never if he was actually guilty or a good person. As soon as he went to the Browns, it went from "He'll make any team better" to "The Browns are a disgusting organization. I'm not defending Watson, I'm glad he didn't come here, but as with Wentz, the media is trying to play up some drama.

 

I hadn't even considered this as a possibility but I think you may be on to something.

 

One thing is certain, if DeShaun had gone to Belichick's Patriots, Tomlin's Steelers, or Andy Reed's Chiefs (yes I know none of those teams were interested, that's not the point) there would most certainly have been near universal approval for the "risky but brilliant move" by management to sign him.

 

I can't imagine any scenario in which one of those teams would receive the same level of negative criticism that the Browns have over the last 24 hours or for that matter that the Commanders have since trading for Wentz.

 

Speaking of which, if the Commanders had somehow acquired Watson the cross country talking head uproar would have been of historic proportions. It might even have led to the ouster of Snyder himself-- we can only dream lol.

 

The Browns, despite their recent turnaround as semi-contendors are still not far removed from being a universal league punching bag the so called "factory of sadness." Piling on against them is an easy story that almost writes itself and it's loaded with plenty of tasty clickbait.

 

Yeah, you just might be onto something Simmsy.

Edited March 22, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Simmsy]

5 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

I hadn't even considered this as a possibility but I think you may be on to something.

 

One thing is certain, if DeShaun had gone to Belichick's Patriots, Tomlin's Steelers, or Andy Reed's Chiefs (yes I know none of those teams were interested, that's not the point) there would most certainly have been near universal approval for the "risky but brilliant move" by management to sign him.

 

I can't imagine any scenario in which one of those teams would receive the same level of negative criticism that the Browns have over the last 24 hours or for that matter that the Commanders have since trading for Wentz.

 

Speaking of which, if the Commanders had somehow acquired Watson the cross country talking head uproar would have been of historic proportions. It might even have led to the ouster of Snyder himself-- we can only dream lol.

 

The Browns, despite their recent turnaround as semi-contendors are still not far removed from being a universal league punching bag the so called "factory of sadness." Piling on against them is an easy story that almost writes itself and it's loaded with plenty of tasty clickbait.

 

Yeah, you just might be onto something Simmsy.

 

Thanks! Where is the "name my first born after you" emoji? Hell, you can just have my children...

 

I have no doubt that if he had gone to any of those teams you have mentioned, the spin would be mostly positive. In fact, if we had taken Watson, I don't think any team would get more negative spin on it than us. Look at the beating the Browns are getting right now...and that is just because they've sucked for so long. We would get no mercy, none at all.

[redskinss]

9 hours ago, Simmsy said:

 

The narrative that the media is pushing on Watson has suddenly changed, I really think its because he went to the Browns. No sports analyst that I heard before questioned Watson's character. They questioned whether he would be charged, whether he would be suspended, but never if he was actually guilty or a good person. As soon as he went to the Browns, it went from "He'll make any team better" to "The Browns are a disgusting organization. I'm not defending Watson, I'm glad he didn't come here, but as with Wentz, the media is trying to play up some drama.

That's probably true but it doesn't change the fact that the situation he's in effects his value.

My point was that quarterbacks are expensive and if someone with that massive shadow over him is worth 24 k gold then surely someone with Wentz's concerns is worth some scrap copper.

[HigSkin]

 

The yellow jacket that Carson Wentz sported last week during his introduction to the Washington media received a lot of attention, and in doing so, it might've overshadowed a basic yet important fact about the quarterback.

 

He is, to be as concise as possible, rather huge.

 

The Commanders' website lists Wentz as a 6-foot-5, 237-pound passer, which makes him four inches taller and 27 pounds heavier than the team's starter from last season, Taylor Heinicke. Wentz's rangy frame was quite evident at his debut press conference, both as he stood behind the podium and posed with his new coach, Ron Rivera, who's got a physical presence of his own right.

 

Considering the position Wentz lines up at, that upgrade in size should prove useful.

 

Take, for example, an early fourth-down failure by the Washington offense in their Halloween matchup with the Broncos. Offensive coordinator Scott Turner called a play that required Heinicke to sprint out toward the right sideline and attempt to connect with tight end Ricky Seals-Jones, but a Denver defender stepped in front of Heinicke's vision, which ruined the rhythm of the sequence. Heinicke's pass was ultimately knocked away.

 

"I tried to outrun that leverage and give him a shot and he tipped it," Heinicke said about that particular incompletion. "I wanted to get the ball out there quickly but again, when that linebacker is just looking at me right in my lane, it’s tough."

 

Though that's one snap in a season with more than a thousand of them, it was an instance where Heinicke's lesser stature cost Turner and the offense in a crucial scenario. Wentz, based on his size, should have far fewer throws impacted by opponents, which will allow Turner to expand his playbook and trust his quarterback more.

 

"I believe it’s what we’re looking for," Rivera told reporters last week. "His skill set speaks very well for us, especially for what we want to do and how we want to attack our opponents."

 

Rivera later added that Wentz "throws very well into the tight windows."

 

In addition to the height advantage Wentz possesses over Heinicke, Wentz also has a much more ideal, powerful arm. That isn't just going to show up on the deeper shots, however; it'll also be key for those "tight windows" Rivera referenced.

 

Thanks to the combination of those two traits, Wentz will be able to zip one outside the numbers to Terry McLaurin or chuck one from the right hash to the left boundary to Cam Sims. When it's third-and-4 and Logan Thomas boxes out a linebacker beyond the sticks, Wentz will have an easier time spotting him and then fitting one into the tight end's arms. Heinicke deserves credit for his entertaining stint as starter, yet those types of situations are where he struggled.

 

Being tall doesn't necessarily equate to more production, of course. The impressive Trevor Lawrence, Cam Newton and Ben Roethlisberger all came up short in 2021 despite being larger options, while Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson have done fine for themselves as smaller quarterbacks. 

 

Furthermore, most of the questions about Wentz have to do with qualities that aren't visible, such as his leadership and how much he can elevate the supporting cast that's placed around him. His talent and his measurables aren't typically discussed when analyzing his flaws.

 

Still, for a franchise that could benefit from doing something different under center, plugging Wentz in after signing the 6-foot-2 Ryan Fitzpatrick and then having to play the 6-foot-1 Heinicke is an interesting adjustment. Wentz must come up big in clutch moments for the Commanders this year, and him literally being big should only help on that mission.

[Tress Is The Way]

13 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

The yellow jacket that Carson Wentz sported last week during his introduction to the Washington media received a lot of attention, and in doing so, it might've overshadowed a basic yet important fact about the quarterback.

 

He is, to be as concise as possible, rather huge.

 

The Commanders' website lists Wentz as a 6-foot-5, 237-pound passer, which makes him four inches taller and 27 pounds heavier than the team's starter from last season, Taylor Heinicke. Wentz's rangy frame was quite evident at his debut press conference, both as he stood behind the podium and posed with his new coach, Ron Rivera, who's got a physical presence of his own right.

 

Considering the position Wentz lines up at, that upgrade in size should prove useful.

 

Take, for example, an early fourth-down failure by the Washington offense in their Halloween matchup with the Broncos. Offensive coordinator Scott Turner called a play that required Heinicke to sprint out toward the right sideline and attempt to connect with tight end Ricky Seals-Jones, but a Denver defender stepped in front of Heinicke's vision, which ruined the rhythm of the sequence. Heinicke's pass was ultimately knocked away.

 

"I tried to outrun that leverage and give him a shot and he tipped it," Heinicke said about that particular incompletion. "I wanted to get the ball out there quickly but again, when that linebacker is just looking at me right in my lane, it’s tough."

 

Though that's one snap in a season with more than a thousand of them, it was an instance where Heinicke's lesser stature cost Turner and the offense in a crucial scenario. Wentz, based on his size, should have far fewer throws impacted by opponents, which will allow Turner to expand his playbook and trust his quarterback more.

 

"I believe it’s what we’re looking for," Rivera told reporters last week. "His skill set speaks very well for us, especially for what we want to do and how we want to attack our opponents."

 

Rivera later added that Wentz "throws very well into the tight windows."

 

In addition to the height advantage Wentz possesses over Heinicke, Wentz also has a much more ideal, powerful arm. That isn't just going to show up on the deeper shots, however; it'll also be key for those "tight windows" Rivera referenced.

 

Thanks to the combination of those two traits, Wentz will be able to zip one outside the numbers to Terry McLaurin or chuck one from the right hash to the left boundary to Cam Sims. When it's third-and-4 and Logan Thomas boxes out a linebacker beyond the sticks, Wentz will have an easier time spotting him and then fitting one into the tight end's arms. Heinicke deserves credit for his entertaining stint as starter, yet those types of situations are where he struggled.

 

Being tall doesn't necessarily equate to more production, of course. The impressive Trevor Lawrence, Cam Newton and Ben Roethlisberger all came up short in 2021 despite being larger options, while Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson have done fine for themselves as smaller quarterbacks. 

 

Furthermore, most of the questions about Wentz have to do with qualities that aren't visible, such as his leadership and how much he can elevate the supporting cast that's placed around him. His talent and his measurables aren't typically discussed when analyzing his flaws.

 

Still, for a franchise that could benefit from doing something different under center, plugging Wentz in after signing the 6-foot-2 Ryan Fitzpatrick and then having to play the 6-foot-1 Heinicke is an interesting adjustment. Wentz must come up big in clutch moments for the Commanders this year, and him literally being big should only help on that mission.

Not only to mention his Height but Wentz is just almost as fast as Heinicke (4.62 vs 4.77 which is pretty negligible when it comes to QBs). Combine that with his size, escapability, and arm strength he is clearly an upgrade at that position. 

 

Comparing his speed to some NFL elite QBs:

Mahomes 4.80 (6ft 3in)

Rodgers 4.71 (6ft 2in)

Allen 4.76 (6ft 5in)

Stafford 4.81 (6ft 3in)

 

Funny thing which is totally off topic but Stafford's real name is John.. he uses his middle name though and I thought that was interesting

Edited March 22, 2022 by ZarG3

[Koolblue13]

We've moved from tall WRs to tall QBs. 

21 minutes ago, ZarG3 said:

 

 

Funny thing which is totally off topic but Stafford's real name is John.. he uses his middle name though and I thought that was interesting

Jake the Snake plummer name was Jason Steven Plummer.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

We've moved from tall WRs to tall QBs. 

 

Yes, and not kidding.  (But I like the joke)

 

With the added note that it's a tall QB that can still move.  Previous taller QB's Dwayne Haskins and Alex Smith were statues.  We keep the mobility of Heinicke, while adding 6 inches of height.

[Koolblue13]

32 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Yes, and not kidding.  (But I like the joke)

 

With the added note that it's a tall QB that can still move.  Previous taller QB's Dwayne Haskins and Alex Smith were statues.  We keep the mobility of Heinicke, while adding 6 inches of height.

I'm extremely happy to have a QB the size of a 34 OLB who has zero fear. Just making jokes.

[FootballZombie]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We've moved from tall WRs to tall QBs. 

 

Your not a real QB unless you can Moss a guy on a Philly special. Everybody knows that.

[Conn]

15 hours ago, Simmsy said:

 

The narrative that the media is pushing on Watson has suddenly changed, I really think its because he went to the Browns. No sports analyst that I heard before questioned Watson's character. They questioned whether he would be charged, whether he would be suspended, but never if he was actually guilty or a good person. As soon as he went to the Browns, it went from "He'll make any team better" to "The Browns are a disgusting organization. I'm not defending Watson, I'm glad he didn't come here, but as with Wentz, the media is trying to play up some drama.

I really don’t think it’s that. I think it’s the shock value of not only seeing a deal go down at desperation prices of three 1sts and three other picks…not only finding out that the Browns were so willing to go beyond the pale to make this happen that they guaranteed his entire contract of $230M in an unprecedented move and were willing to remove all language that would give him financial consequences if he gets in real trouble again…no, I think the final straw was seeing that on top of all of that, the Browns also were willing to structure his contract to help him avoid any consequences from suspension whatsoever, with the most minimum of year 1 salaries, to protect his pockets. That goes from “we have plausible deniability” straight to “we don’t care and are outwardly working with him to avoid consequences and that’s obviously the main reason he was willing to come here in the first place”.

 

I think any team that dealt for him was going to be awash in criticism. But the way it all went down and the details of what the Browns did and were willing to do to make it happen really nailed home how ****ed up the whole situation was and how the entire “search” on Watson’s end was really about finding the team he could leverage into protecting his money for him. It’s transparently scummy in a way people somehow didn’t expect, on top of all the other controversy surrounding it. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Conn

[Koolblue13]

 

[JSSkinz]

17 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

From what I am seeing, ATL eats the dead cap and G money. The Colts could cut Ryan right now for no penalty, let alone next season. He has no G money at all in his contract w/ the Colts.

https://overthecap.com/player/matt-ryan/823/

 

 

Wentz has a lot of G money this year, but after that its all un-g I believe.

 

There's articles everywhere saying the Colts fully guaranteed the remainder of his contract.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/matt-ryan-traded-to-colts-indy-fully-guarantees-remainder-of-contract-following-acquisition-of-falcons-legend/

 

 

[Darth Tater]

In the case of these trades, cutting the guy before salaries are guaranteed for the season means you made a really bad trade or got very lucky (like finding you had Tom Brady 2.0 on your roster). So I don't really see relevance. My biggest issue with Kirk was that we really needed to extend him after the 2015 season but had only one good season to go on. I like that  with Wentz, we'd still have up to two season to evaluate him after 2022 before we have to fish or move on. With Ryan, you really only have this season and next, Finally,  a QB in at 32  can be expected to play for 5-6 more seasons, a QB in at 38 can be expected to play for 2-3.

[Darth Tater]

13 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

I hadn't even considered this as a possibility but I think you may be on to something.

 

One thing is certain, if DeShaun had gone to Belichick's Patriots, Tomlin's Steelers, or Andy Reed's Chiefs (yes I know none of those teams were interested, that's not the point) there would most certainly have been near universal approval for the "risky but brilliant move" by management to sign him.

 

I can't imagine any scenario in which one of those teams would receive the same level of negative criticism that the Browns have over the last 24 hours or for that matter that the Commanders have since trading for Wentz.

 

Speaking of which, if the Commanders had somehow acquired Watson the cross country talking head uproar would have been of historic proportions. It might even have led to the ouster of Snyder himself-- we can only dream lol.

 

The Browns, despite their recent turnaround as semi-contendors are still not far removed from being a universal league punching bag the so called "factory of sadness." Piling on against them is an easy story that almost writes itself and it's loaded with plenty of tasty clickbait.

 

Yeah, you just might be onto something Simmsy.

Belichick has a history of success with those high risk moves (keeping 4 QBs on the 53 back in Tom's rookie year was his biggest). Reid has had success (McNabb, Smith, Mahomes) with risk moves at QB. Steelers don't really have that rep but are generally media darlings (although they have had some bad and mediocre seasons, they have not truly sucked since 1971, no Steeler fan less than about 60 really knows what suck is). Browns have no such history. The last time such a high risk signing worked for us for the long term, I had no gray hair and, in the last 20 years, we have had notable fails in such a maneuver. 

[goskins10]

18 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

From what I am seeing, ATL eats the dead cap and G money. The Colts could cut Ryan right now for no penalty, let alone next season. He has no G money at all in his contract w/ the Colts.

https://overthecap.com/player/matt-ryan/823/

 

 

Wentz has a lot of G money this year, but after that its all un-g I believe.

 

 

That is false. As for Matt Ryan, what you say was true until the Colts gauranteed the last two seasons of his contract. He now has $54M in guaranteed money from the Colts. Here is one of many. many articles with the details --> https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/matt-ryan-contract-details-colts-falcons-dead-cap/euc1gdrxurthgcgjc2zevek8

 

As for Wentz that is accurate right now. $28M gauranteed this year, nothing past that, although he is under contract for the following two years fro $26M and $27M respectively. So if he does play really well the team does not have to restructure for a few years. 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

16 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Belichick has a history of success with those high risk moves (keeping 4 QBs on the 53 back in Tom's rookie year was his biggest). Reid has had success (McNabb, Smith, Mahomes) with risk moves at QB. Steelers don't really have that rep but are generally media darlings (although they have had some bad and mediocre seasons, they have not truly sucked since 1971, no Steeler fan less than about 60 really knows what suck is). Browns have no such history. The last time such a high risk signing worked for us for the long term, I had no gray hair and, in the last 20 years, we have had notable fails in such a maneuver. 

 

 

This just proves my point.

 

Media decisions on whether something is a good or bad transaction are based more on the PERCEIVED previous success or failure of the decision maker and organization involved than anything else.

 

The question then becomes simply one of "who made the trade or acquisition?"

 

Eliminating the time effort and expertise required to do the much more nuanced task of analizing what was actually traded for, what was received in return and measuring what the short and long term probabilities of success are.

 

What talking head has the time or desire to do all that when you it's so much easier to simplify things by saying "team x did good things in the past" so this must be a good trade fir them today.

 

Which essentially means that some folks have license to do almost anything with no fear of criticism based solely on their perceived reputation around the league.

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Darth Tater]

1 minute ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

 

This just proves my point.

 

Media decisions on whether something is a good or bad transaction are based more on the PERCEIVED previous success or failure of the decision maker and organization involved than anything else.

 

The question then becomes simply one of "who made the trade or acquisition?"

 

Eliminating the time effort and expertise required to do the much more nuanced task of analizing what was actually traded for, what was received in return and measuring what the short and long term probabilities of success are.

 

What talking head has the time or desire to do all that when you it's so much easier to simplify things by saying "team x did good things in the past" so this must be a good trade fir them today.

 

Which essentially means that some folks have license to do almost anything with no fear of criticism based solely on their perceived reputation around the league.

 

 

 

Thing that is real "funny" is that the Browns will get all sorts of media praise if it works out even for just a year. If its a fail, just 'same ole browns, they should have known it was a crap maneuver'.

[CommanderInTheRye]

5 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Thing that is real "funny" is that the Browns will get all sorts of media praise if it works out even for just a year. If its a fail, just 'same ole browns, they should have known it was a crap maneuver'.

 

And the talking heads on tv just get to keep talking and talking and talking with no consequences for failure.

 

They know that the public has a short memory and no one keeps score anyway and they know that they will never be held to account for their considerable failures just as long as they remain controversial enough that their ratings stay high.

 

It's the game within the game.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye