The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Thinking Skins]

 

[CapsSkins]

I guess my whole thing is I don't view drafting a 1st round QB prospect as being mutually exclusive with giving Heinicke the chance to be the long-term starter.

 

I think you do both: draft a guy and have an honest competition in the offseason for 2022 Week 1 starter (which I expect Heinicke to win).

[CapsSkins]

Man I'm watching the early game right now and keep thinking how the Rams managed to reach the SB with Goff and he's awful. 😂 

[88Comrade2000]

On 11/24/2021 at 1:49 PM, Renegade7 said:

 

You are missing my point, hes not going to re-sign next year if we draft a first round QB this year.

 

 

I've been following the draft thread and given my limited input there. I even watched the Liberty-Ole Miss game, which was a huge let down from a QB scouting perspective.

 

Like you mentioned, there is no cant miss prospect that would undoubtedly go #1 or even 1-2.  And as I've said in that thread I'll feel more comfortable with who is NFL ready by the time the combines are through.

 

We really need to do our homework here since we are dropping in the draft, something we have no history of doing right.  Id be far more comfortable trading up for a can't miss prospect then taking a gamble in the bottom half of the draft in a QB class thats "fine". 

 

Without that cant miss prospect or draft capital to trade up to get the best one in this class, im fine with punting until next year. We really can't afford to get this one wrong, Ron won't get a chance to pick another one if he muffs on his first one.  Is this really the year to do it?

If Ron doesn’t have a winning season in 22, at minimum ; that qb Being drafted in 23, will be.

 

You extend Taylor’s contract in the offseason by 1-2 years and give him a bump in pay.

 

He either seizes the job or not or the rookie outplays him and we trade him for picks.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Rdskns2000

[88Comrade2000]

8 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Not one person on this board thinks we're a lock for the superbowl, but its possible. It's a very long shot to even make the playoffs, but its all possible. Sure, Heinicke could get red hot and ride this run game down the seasons throat. 

 

But that's not how you build for long term success. Eagles did it and now the QB back up, starter, coaches, all gone and they were a preseason lock to be top 5 in the draft and started the season looking like it. 

 

But they had patience with a young QB and head coach is starting to pay off and they'll probably be looking at a good team for 10 years, that should have multiple shots at SB runs.

Not with Dan as owner, never.

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Not with Dan as owner, never.

Those Dan comments are as tired as the ref blamers when we lose.

[88Comrade2000]

I Personally think Taylor will be worse next year. There will be seasons worth of tape on him. Teams will use his limitations as a player against him. 

[Leonard Washington]

3 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

I Personally think Taylor will be worse next year. There will be seasons worth of tape on him. Teams will use his limitations as a player against him.

Don’t forget the team and Taylor are working to hide his flaws too.  Experience and better mechanics will help too. We have seen Taylor at his best and it is good enough to beat any team in the NFL.  

[zCommander]

10 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

I Personally think Taylor will be worse next year. There will be seasons worth of tape on him. Teams will use his limitations as a player against him. 

 

Teams had tapes on the QBs playing this year too. Are all QBs playing worse this year? 

 

Your offense coordinator gets paid too to offset what the other teams might be able to do against your QB. The better coordinator wins those battles. 

[Chump Bailey]

11 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

I Personally think Taylor will be worse next year. There will be seasons worth of tape on him. Teams will use his limitations as a player against him. 

 

My opinion about Taylor is evolving by the week it seems. I like him a lot. I admit that I may change my mind and considerably so if he completely lays an egg against Seattle, however. I like his moxie, his mobility and his arm is underrated. He appears to have the locker room too, which is obviously huge. He drives the ball downfield, which is exactly the type of QB we need and one who can evade the pass rush. I'm almost to the point in thinking we would be better off rolling with Taylor next season and build around him. A stifling defense, find another true WR#2, shore up the OL and I'd target RB Chris Rodriguez in the draft to ensure the running game remains strong. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Chump Bailey

[Califan007 The Constipated]

18 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

I guess my whole thing is I don't view drafting a 1st round QB prospect as being mutually exclusive with giving Heinicke the chance to be the long-term starter.

 

I think you do both: draft a guy and have an honest competition in the offseason for 2022 Week 1 starter (which I expect Heinicke to win).

This season is Heinicke’s opportunity to be the long-term starter. So drafting a QB in the 1st round would come after his opportunity, not during. If Rivera is convinced at the end of the season that Heinicke is the long term answer, it’d be smarter to draft a possible down-the-road replacement in the 2nd/3rd/4th due to Heinicke’s age.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

I guess my whole thing is I don't view drafting a 1st round QB prospect as being mutually exclusive with giving Heinicke the chance to be the long-term starter.

 

I think you do both: draft a guy and have an honest competition in the offseason for 2022 Week 1 starter (which I expect Heinicke to win).

 

That's exactly how I feel.  i am not as optimistic as some are that Heinicke is the long term answer but I also don't rule it out.  We've struck out at a comical level at finding that QB.  Why not take multiple swings.  And if we have an embarassment of riches and have to bail on one of them -- that's a wild scenario that is so cool that its tough for me to see the downside.

 

The Cardinals have Kyler Murrary but are still sore about trading Josh Rosen for a 2nd and 5th rounder and are upset that they had to double down at the spot to become arguably now one of the best teams in the NFL after stinking?

 

I'd be so elated for us getting one QB right, I would care less about losing a little draft capital from doubling down.   We traded three first rounders and a 2nd for RG3 because heck getting a top 10 type QB is the be all and end all -- it didn't work but they shot hard for it because of the value of the spot.   Any team without that QB would give up a first for a 2nd and 5th or name that permutation in 2 seconds. 

 

Howie Rosen talked about it once.  Years back post McNabb.  Their idea was to keep swinging and don't stop until they land that dude.  They went through a bunch of ways to go about it.  Getting Bradford.  Then trading up.  Trading up for Wentz.  Then trading him.  Now its Hurts.  They might have figured things out with Hurts.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[CobraCommander]

One thing I will give Rivera credit for is sticking with Heinicke, even if he didn't really have a choice at times. This team has been on the QB carousel for too long and I think he recognized that. He was on the radio this morning and the question came up about how QB starved we are here in DC and he agreed with that sentiment. But at some point you have to stick with a guy for more than a few games especially if there are no injuries. Now I still think we need another QB on this roster next year but I don't feel like we are going to keep cycling through them every 8 games or less. 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

This season is Heinicke’s opportunity to be the long-term starter. So drafting a QB in the 1st round would come after his opportunity, not during. If Rivera is convinced at the end of the season that Heinicke is the long term answer, it’d be smarter to draft a possible down-the-road replacement in the 2nd/3rd/4th due to Heinicke’s age.

I believe this largely depends on how anyone view the "long term stuff". If it's 10 years, obvious answer is Heinicke is probably not that guy. But can he do 1 or 2 more season like he's been playing lately?

I would think that if he ends the year like he played against CAR or TB, I can easily that. Not a world beater, but he's commanding the Offense and his teammates are ready to die for him on  the field, Which is priceless if you're a HC to me.

Adapt the Offense to what he's comfortable with, and ride with it.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

26 minutes ago, Florgon79 said:

This team has been on the QB carousel for too long and I think he recognized that.

Agreed. There was a guy on Twitter weeks ago who said they couldn’t understand why Rivera didn’t bench Heinicke and start Allen under the belief that he couldn’t do worse and “I want to see what we have in Allen.” I said maybe Rivera sees a very real value with avoiding a 3rd straight year of the QB carousel, which has helped no one.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

I believe this largely depends on how anyone view the "long term stuff". If it's 10 years, obvious answer is Heinicke is probably not that guy. But can he do 1 or 2 more season like he's been playing lately?

I would think that if he ends the year like he played against CAR or TB, I can easily that. Not a world beater, but he's commanding the Offense and his teammates are ready to die for him on  the field, Which is priceless if you're a HC to me.

Adapt the Offense to what he's comfortable with, and ride with it.

Agree with this, too lol…

Edited November 26, 2021 by Califan007

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

 

Adapt the Offense to what he's comfortable with, and ride with it.

 

From what I can tell from listening to Rivera, Turner and even Heinicke -- this part has already happened.  Turner has had Heinicke on and off for years.   He knows Heinicke and Heinicke knows his system apparently really really well. 

 

To me the mystery is can better decision making from Heinicke/avoiding turnovers become a permanent thing with him and is that along with his mobility enough to overcome a weak throwing arm.  I don't know. 

 

 

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

From what I can tell from listening to Rivera, Turner and even Heinicke -- this part has already happened.  Turner has had Heinicke on and off for years.   He knows Heinicke and Heinicke knows his system apparently really really well. 

 

 

 

I don't think Turner has gotten enough credit for this task and others.

I could see him getting a HC job as early as next season.

I hope we have someone lined up who can call plays next year, and wonder who that could be.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I don't think Turner has gotten enough credit for this task and others.

I could see him getting a HC job as early as next season.

I hope we have someone lined up who can call plays next year, and wonder who that could be.

I don't think Turner will go anywhere for a while. Him and Zampese I think are going to want to stick around a while and get this offense totally dialed in, especially if they get to draft a rookie that they want. Ron already give his assistants a ton of freedom, especially on offense. I'm more worried about Maktso and Hoener leaving. I also have a sneaking feeling that in a few years from now Ron might be ready for retirement (whatever that looks like to him) and it'll become Turners job at that point.

 

Harris, our DBs coach got a lot of talk before the season as a hot HC/DC candidate, but who knows with the way our secondary has been.

[Malapropismic Depository]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 I'm more worried about Maktso and Hoener leaving.

 

Do you mean, leaving as in retirement, or a HC offer ?

If it's a HC offer, I disagree on that. Not because they havn't done well. They've done outstanding.

But both of them are long-time assistants in their respective specialties, so they are no new surprise to the NFL.

They've been succeeding for a long time, and if they were going to get a HC gig, I think it would have happened by now.

Also, they are both 70 years old, and that's typically not an age where guys become Head Coaches.

[Thinking Skins]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

From what I can tell from listening to Rivera, Turner and even Heinicke -- this part has already happened.  Turner has had Heinicke on and off for years.   He knows Heinicke and Heinicke knows his system apparently really really well. 

 

To me the mystery is can better decision making from Heinicke/avoiding turnovers become a permanent thing with him and is that along with his mobility enough to overcome a weak throwing arm.  I don't know. 

I kinda disagree with this. Yeah, they've known each other but Taylor hasn't been playing. Heck, he hasn't even been getting reps in practice. So I do think they're growing. Heck I think Taylor is growing with what he likes and doesn't like sand is comfortable with. One thing I've been focused on is that I think him getting here and his previous experience had been in broken plays and making something happen. I think that's why Fitz looked better in the offseason. But now that he's getting first team reps over and over, it is slowing down and he is seeing patterns. That means that he's more comfortable making decisions quicker and within the play itself. 

 

This is why I'm so optimistic about him having his best games after a slump. Because just when people (myself included) were saying that he might have reached his ceiling against Atlanta and just be a backup, he does what he did against Carolina and Tampa. So he adapted. Against the leagues best defenses. 

 

I don't know how high his ceiling is but just like I didn't like calling Allen just a backup I don't like it for Taylor. I'm still of the opinion that is he can take this team to the playoffs, it should be his team going into next year. He'd have earned it. Doesn't mean you don't draft somebody else, or even a first rounder, but he is showing at minimum that he belongs in the league. And it's better than maybe half of the QBs starting right now.

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Do you mean, leaving as in retirement, or a HC offer ?

If it's a HC offer, I disagree on that. Not because they havn't done well. They've done outstanding.

But both of them are long-time assistants in their respective specialties, so they are no new surprise to the NFL.

They've been succeeding for a long time, and if they were going to get a HC gig, I think it would have happened by now.

Also, they are both 70 years old, and that's typically not an age where guys become Head Coaches.

I just meant leaving as in whatever. 

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I don't think Turner has gotten enough credit for this task and others.

I could see him getting a HC job as early as next season.

I hope we have someone lined up who can call plays next year, and wonder who that could be.

He would be mediocre as his father was.

[ThomasRoane]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

From what I can tell from listening to Rivera, Turner and even Heinicke -- this part has already happened.  Turner has had Heinicke on and off for years.   He knows Heinicke and Heinicke knows his system apparently really really well. 

 

To me the mystery is can better decision making from Heinicke/avoiding turnovers become a permanent thing with him and is that along with his mobility enough to overcome a weak throwing arm.  I don't know. 

 

 

 

 

I think he has a very quick release.  He can really torque his upper body to get the ball out fast; even off his back foot.  He's made some very tight-window throws.  That skinny post to Cam Sims was amazing.  A half a second late and it's tipped or picked.  He's also shown he's a multiplatform thrower.  Ideally, you want him to rely less on that but I'd rather have to coach my QB to dial that down than to teach him how to create throwing angles.  That's something you have or you don't.  It's innate.  

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Agreed. There was a guy on Twitter weeks ago who said they couldn’t understand why Rivera didn’t bench Heinicke and start Allen under the belief that he couldn’t do worse and “I want to see what we have in Allen.” I said maybe Rivera sees a very real value with avoiding a 3rd straight year of the QB carousel, which has helped no one.

I wasn't in the bench Heinicke camp but I was leaning towards an I understand attitude of it happening. But the same questions are there with Allen. He hasn't proven he can stay healthy. He hasn't proven he has an arm. He hasn't proven he can work from the pocket. Heck, he hasn't even proven he can win (1-4 as a starter) Heinicke wasn't much better at (2-6) but he was better. If we had gotten to 2-8 then maybe I would have been saying meh it didn't matter because he's not the guy sand we just better hope one of these draft qbs show us something. But after the last two weeks. I'm back in the optimistic column on Taylor and saying that his ceiling is similar to Kirks, especially if he can show her has a better arm than people are saying that he has 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I think he has a very quick release.  He can really torque his upper body to get the ball out fast; even off his back foot.  He's made some very tight-window throws.  That skinny post to Cam Sims was amazing.  A half a second late and it's tipped or picked.  He's also shown he's a multiplatform thrower.  Ideally, you want him to rely less on that but I'd rather have to coach my QB to dial that down than to teach him how to create throwing angles.  That's something you have or you don't.  It's innate.  

 

If I am going full scouting on him in my own amateurish way:

 

Pro

Ability to escape pressure in the pocket -- elite level

Quick release

Clutch-gamer

High intangibles -- leadership, emotion, work ethic

Off platform throws

Can get hot

Self conscious -- I don't think he's as high on himself as some of the people here are on him judging by his own comments -- but I see that as a positive trait.  I don't like a player who is too arrogant or who has their head in the clouds.  

 

 

Con

Arm strength is below average

Accuracy can come and get --inconsistent

Throws off his back foot a bit too much, hence the high throws

Presses when behind and can make bad decisions

Can hold on to the ball too long

 

i am not ready to crown him.  I am not ready to say he's not the answer.  I lean towards the later but on that point I think he can be at least decent as a starter as they look for the long term solution. 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise