The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[RandyHolt]

Dare I think most all unproven players that aren't starting, want to be traded. A GM would have a tough time building a roster if he accommodated trade requests for his backups. Suck it up buttercup! I think Sam is worth more to us than a team is willing to pay to get a lottery ticket chance to solve their QB woes. He showed enough that I would be calling AP as a GM without a franchise QB.

 

I find it strange a QB coming out of college where he had to compete for a job (and presume high school as well) suddenly will be at risk for failure if he has to compete for a job. Life handed to him on a silver platter, or he busts? If he is that fragile he will likely fail otherwise after a slew of INTs or the fans boo him.

 

Arguably the 2 best QBs we drafted in the past few decades, were were drafted in the same year.

Edited March 13 by RandyHolt

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

19 hours ago, BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen said:

He will be the most heavily compensated QB to never win a damn thing either.

 

I take that back...Cousins has won the Checkbook Super Bowl. 😉

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

Yep.  It was a huge part of UNC's offense, and it was almost their entire running game in '22.  Drake led UNC in rushing that year, and had 13 attempts per game.  He's a Josh Allen level runner at the position, and does stuff similar to Allen like jumping over people.  His running style is going to translate to the NFL and be sustainable.  It's a tertiary tool for him, and he is a big guy with athleticism.  A lot of the types of rushes that Jayden lived on will not translate to the NFL.  All of those big middle field runs are going to be so much riskier for him.  They will get him hurt and it won't take long.  He's also going to have to actually stay behind the line of scrimmage and throw the ball when he doesn't like the defensive look.  He's not going to be able to run to avoid NFL throwing windows like he did at LSU.

 

But can he average 700 yards per year as that one guy here projected for Howel when he decided that Howell was the greatest running QB of all time?

 

Who was that guy? He was funny.

Edited March 13 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As for Howell, if a team wants to give him a shot to compete for a job and this team can get decent draft capital in return then I gather the idea is why not get a young player, especially if its a 3rd rounder who can be part of the future of the team.

 

No one wants to give Howell a shot at being a starter and no one is trading a third rounder for him.

 

Nothing amuses me so much as how much we overvalue the bad players on our terrible team and undervalue the good players on our terrible team.

 

Howell is a dude. I think he's likely to move on in some way, because it's just kinda weird to go from starter to third strong over the course of an off-season. But there's no demand out there for him. Mason Rudolph has the "career backup whose market value will never be higher" market cornered, and no one wants Mason Rudolph.

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

No one wants to give Howell a shot at being a starter and no one is trading a third rounder for him.

 

 

I mean Brian Burns essentially only fetched a 2nd and he's a stud pass rusher. We'd be lucky to get a 5th for Howell at this point.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

No one wants to give Howell a shot at being a starter and no one is trading a third rounder for him.

 

Nothing amuses me so much as how much we overvalue the bad players on our terrible team and undervalue the good players on our terrible team.

 

Howell is a dude. I think he's likely to move on in some way, because it's just kinda weird to go from starter to third strong over the course of an off-season. But there's no demand out there for him. Mason Rudolph has the "career backup whose market value will never be higher" market cornered, and no one wants Mason Rudolph.

 

I am big on playing down value of what we can get for players pretty much as a default position for eons.

 

But when Keim-Standig mention what's been said with people they talk to around the league that's a different gig.    The same reporters who played down (not up) what was being offered for Trent back in the day. 

 

 

 

Edited March 13 by Skinsinparadise

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Call me crazy but I think its wrong to think that:

• Mariota is a better short or long term solution over Howell. That he is better insurance if Maye/Daniels flops. That a career journeyman who just couldn't beat out Ridder or Heineke is best to teach our Ferrari how to drive in the fast lane.
• Only QBs that have failed to become starters bouncing around from team to team can help mentor young QBs. I will concede those guys are best to teach how to deal with failure.
• Fields is a better option for teams still needing a QB, over Howell (cap hit and cost to acquire factored in, or maybe even not)
• Howell should be jettisoned for whatever we can get for him. He has no value to us even if the new guy busts.
• That the book is written on Howell and final chapter says he is a failure.
• Teams can only ever have one young QB developing in a system. You have to have an old played out vet QB on every team. Because its always been that way!

Howell made a **** ton of difficult throws when defenses knew he was going to throw. Had virtually NO run game. He looked pretty damn good the first half of the year and you KNOW it. Proved durable despite being awkward af trying to finish runs and taking lots of sacks #thik. Got his bell rung proper game 1 quarter 1 and won the game. Can throw on the run very well and from the pocket fairly well. Got little support from his WR/TE room who all seemed to regress (Samuel aside). Got little support from his OL that as usual consistently could not pickup blitzes stunts and twists - I don't give a rats ass that PFF said our OL was average - they failed the confusing front/blitz pickup eye test. Had the leagues worst defense to practice against. And I contend, had the leagues WORST coaching staff, and I don't think it's close. He seems good in the locker room says all the right things and is not a drama queen attention whore money grubbing primadonna aspiring social media influencer.

 

Agreed, but honestly, I'm not sold Mariota is there for the same reason that Brissett was there last year. I think Brissett was the backup/Veteraness guy, period. But honestly, like you, I don't think there's a chance in hell that Mariota is a better option than Howell if Maye or Daniels goes down for us. NONE. So why are they bringing him in? My guess is that they're bringing him in because he's a 9/10 year veteran, and Howell with only 2 years in, is much more raw to the pro game. If, if they brought Mariota to back up the selection at two, they're really just missing, quite badly, with their evaluation of both QB's currently now on the roster, period. I also agree w/the PFF stupidity, PFF is really just people watching tape and then scoring performances, it's not, unbiased math, it's tape grinding, with math added, after the tape grinding, so yes, 1000% they got our OL grade wrong, just like they get plenty wrong. They are better than just people watching tape, because they've built clear and coherent, organized system for scoring plays, but they aren't just the raw, honest, math, they are tape grinders, with directions and a rubric lol. It's always important to remember that when evaluating that stuff. 

[RWJ]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am big on playing down value of what we can get for players pretty much as a default position for eons.

 

But when Keim-Standig mention what's been said with people they talk to around the league that's a different gig.    The same reporters who played down (not up) what was being offered for Trent back in the day. 

 

 

 

QB needy teams will be scratching their heads right up till and during the 2nd day of the draft, IMO.  

Edited March 13 by RWJ

[The Consigliere]

14 hours ago, oraphus said:

I would guess that with the Mariota signing.. Howell is gone, will most likely be traded during the draft.

That's certainly the other piece of that. There is a very real sense he is traded. Just spit balling, I'd guess it's 20-40%, and regardless, they were always going to sign a veteran backup this offseason with Brissett leaving (why, again, on earth, did we not trade Brissett before the deadline!?!?!). 

[RandyHolt]

Elephant in the room, does the new brass like Howell at all?  Quinn had a first hand look at him of course, as did Peters. Unfortunate for Sam, the 3 games they saw last year was after the wheels came off the wagon and we were in basic free fall with the season long awkwardness of Ron slow walking the plank finally leaving even the players a complete mess.

 

I am not beating the drums for Howell more I want 2 young QBs in the pipe. Everyone has a price and I would certainly give Sam for an early 3rd round pick.

 

Sam's first 10 games - I think far exceeded all reasonable expectations as a 5th rounder in our **** show org. Almost beat philly and their dream team paper tiger defense twice. Overall stats through 10 look pretty good esp if we drop the Buffalo stinker (all Qbs have one - minus Buff: 4 Wins 17 TDs 5 INTs).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/4426875/sam-howell

 

 

Edited March 13 by RandyHolt

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Sam is going to want to be traded. He’s now penciled in as third string. He’s going to want to go somewhere where he can be the backup with a legit chance at the starter job.

 

That’s not here.

 

Denver, Las Vegas, Minnesota are legit options and since Seattle new team isn’t sold on Geno; they could be an option.

I personally don't read anything at all into the signing of Mariota vs. what else will happen with the QBs.  I think it's totally disconnected.  They wanted a veteran backup.  They looked at Darnold and Mariota.  Darnold chose the Vikings because he has a chance to start if they don't do anything else, the staff is familiar with Mariota, there probably will be some similar concepts in the pass offense the Eagles ran last year since Brian Johnson is the passing game coordinator and he was the Eagles OC last year, so it makes sense.

 

To me, that's where you draw the line.

 

However, if you absolutely HAVE to extrapolate something based on this signing, I would go with they have a really good idea they are drafting Maye, they don't want Maye and Howell together because that could get awkward from a personal perspective, and this gives them the easy option to trade Howell and have the backup in place.

 

From the "what does Howell want" perspective of being the backup or 3rd string, I don't think it matters.  I also think if he sticks around, there's no reason to think he couldn't actually beat out Mariota for the backup job.  And we're not paying Mariota enough to guarantee him the backup job. In 2012, we had Griffin, Cousins and Grossman, and rookie Cousins beat out Grossman, who knew the Shanahan system and was the previous year's starter, for backup.

 

I am probably more sensitive to the "what works well in the room" than some others.  Some might say, "they're getting paid, work it out."  But I think team chemistry is really important, and if there is a chance having Maye and Howell together might just not "be ideal" to use Maye's words, then you move Howell.  

 

All that said, and while I do think they're going to draft Maye, I don't really read anything into the Mariota signing except for "want a vet, get a vet."

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Elephant in the room, does the new brass like Howell at all?

Who knows?  They might, they might not.  They might like him and trade him anyway because he just doesn't fit into their plans.  They might not like him and trade him. They might not like him and keep him because he costs about the same amount as Ramen noodles at Safeway.

 

From what I've heard reported, the general reporting consensus is the league had some interest in him as a backup QB.  Standig said he talked to a GM who said they might be willing to trade a 3rd round pick for him as a backup.

 

If you believe that, then you might extrapolate the league folks, including Peters, liked some of what they saw from Howell last year and he was in a trash situation, and there might be something there.  

 

He could be a very serviceable backup for a lot of years at worst.  He has the athletic tools to play.  Big arm, good mobility, can make all the throws.  If you make things easy on him, he does well.  That's the definition of a good backup.  He's also cheap as hell for 2 more years unless he's a starter and you have to pay him.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Rolo Tomasie said:

I never understood why Eli gave the cold shoulder to San Diego. I know they didn't have a good recent history of developing quarterbacks at that point and the owner at that time I think was spanos, who was known to be kind of cheap. But it's a dream city weather-wise and not a huge high pressure market. NFL teams change quickly. It seemed to work out fine as a destination franchise for Rivers and later Brees and Herbert. 

You know, one would think it might be media marketing purposes, except Eli never seemed like a big commercial guy either. If there were any major issues, it was basically, yeah, the owner sucks, and it's not a major media market, but team building wise, they were more mediocre than anything. It wasn't like going to the Cardinals or Bucs in the 80s, the chargers were sign, and the giants had basically, other than aberration 2000, been below average for a decade. It didnt make much sense to me either. I get Elway and the Colts. The Colts were run by a drunk, the son was a pill popping loon, and the team had been ---- other than some Bert Jones magic around when Star Wars came out, for a decade. They were also about to move or had just moved, I forget which. I get Elway saying, "screw that," but the Eli thing was weird, other than marketing issues (and honestly, San Diego is an hour or less from LA, the second biggest media market in the US was a short drive away), and the fact that they'd only made one super bowl, what was the problem. San Diego wasn't New Orleans, they were great during the Fouts years, had some moments in the mid-nineties, I just never understood what the big deal was there. It was odd, and the Chargers got the much better QB anyway lol, if they'd gotten the coach right, instead of stupidly hired Norv, and some other mediocre guys, it probably would have been them winning a super bowl rather than the Giants. 

[oraphus]

I made this argument in a different thread some time back.. that argument was the Howell is not at this point a good backup QB.. he is a 3rd stringer, because he does not yet possess the traits you want in a backup due to lack of time in the NFL and lack of experience. So while its possible he stays on the roster.. i fully believe that if Wash gets an offer of 5th rd or better... they will take it. 

 

Saying that.. i am even more puzzled by the Mariota pickup.. since he was never known as a great locker room guy or a great backup that knows his place (ala Brisset) He was always known as the "I am doing my best to be a starter again at all costs" and while thats acceptable when he backs up a veteran, i am not sure how thats beneficial to a rookie QB you plan to draft at #2.

So if i put on my tin foil hat.. to me you bring in Mariota to possibly start at the beginning of the season, what that means for the #2 pick?? you decide..

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

22 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Elephant in the room, does the new brass like Howell at all?  Quinn had a first hand look at him of course, as did Peters. Unfortunate for Sam, the 3 games they saw last year was after the wheels came off the wagon and we were in basic free fall with the season long awkwardness of Ron slow walking the plank finally leaving even the players a complete mess.

 

Why are you so desperate to salvage something from Howell here?

 

I will never understand the weird relationships fans develop with the most random players.

 

Let Howell go, man. If he truly loves you, maybe one day, he will return to you.

4 minutes ago, oraphus said:

So if i put on my tin foil hat.. to me you bring in Mariota to possibly start at the beginning of the season, what that means for the #2 pick?? you decide..

 

I tend to go with the conventional wisdom that it means that Daniels is the pick, because Daniels is the one guy you probably don't start from Game 1. If you draft Maye, you are probably starting him immediately which means his backup is the guy who is going to be chasing a starting job until he is 53 years old.

 

But I don't know nothing about nothing, and I can never remember Daniels' name.

[RandyHolt]

9 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Why are you so desperate to salvage something from Howell here?

 

Why did you truncate my post and ignore that I wrote:

 

I am not beating the drums for Howell more I want 2 young QBs in the pipe.

 

Let it go indeed

Edited March 13 by RandyHolt

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Why did you truncate my post and ignore that I wrote:

 

I am not beating the drums for Howell more I want 2 young QBs in the pipe.

 

Let it go indeed

 

You've been chasing after Howell like a common hoo-ore for pages now.

 

Frankly, I'm depressed and ashamed.

[Warhead36]

If we coulda gotten a 4th from Howell we would have already.

 

My guess is we trade him sometime during/shortly after the draft when some team is left out of the QB class and offers some 2025 picks for him shortly before camp starts.

[The Consigliere]

43 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean Brian Burns essentially only fetched a 2nd and he's a stud pass rusher. We'd be lucky to get a 5th for Howell at this point.

I think it's more complicated for that. Part of the decision making process w/this sort of thing is connected to how much time is left on the contract, and the relative cost of resigning a guy. Burns had just completed his rookie option season. So unless Carolina tagged him, he was essentially going to be a guy who could be acquired for free. So why on earth would the Giants pay more than a 2nd and a 5th for a guy that was a franchise tag away from being an unrestricted free agent. Now also consider the Giants second rounder wasn't say, a random '25 or '26 2nd, it was a known, very early 2nd. Burn's fetched more than many would expect considering you still have to give him that free agent deal. Someone in our free agent thread already mentioned that Luvu with his contract, and no trade comp was much better than giving up a max contract level pay day AND a top 40 draft pick to boot. It's why the Sean Gilbert Trade was such a bonanza for us, until we largely blew the draft compensation on Arrington and Brad Johnson (in fairness, Arrington was really Arrington+Samuels, either guy could be the #2 overall). 

 

As for Howell, I would never trade him for a 5th, it's not remotely good enough for how well he played considering the bull---- he was dealing with, and he has way more value to us as injury cover for another two years. 

[The Consigliere]

21 minutes ago, oraphus said:

I made this argument in a different thread some time back.. that argument was the Howell is not at this point a good backup QB.. he is a 3rd stringer, because he does not yet possess the traits you want in a backup due to lack of time in the NFL and lack of experience. So while its possible he stays on the roster.. i fully believe that if Wash gets an offer of 5th rd or better... they will take it. 

 

Saying that.. i am even more puzzled by the Mariota pickup.. since he was never known as a great locker room guy or a great backup that knows his place (ala Brisset) He was always known as the "I am doing my best to be a starter again at all costs" and while thats acceptable when he backs up a veteran, i am not sure how thats beneficial to a rookie QB you plan to draft at #2.

So if i put on my tin foil hat.. to me you bring in Mariota to possibly start at the beginning of the season, what that means for the #2 pick?? you decide..

I don't agree w/that at all other than I guess the reasonable argument that he's never really been a backup who was called upon to start. What we saw last year, was a guy that can play in the league, period, when the team gives a ----. When the team quit, and the opponents got much tougher, in tandem, his play fell off, but through mid november he was consistently producing above average, average, and below average games in nearly equal increments. This guy wasn't Zach Wilson, or Justin Fields or Ridder, struggling to complete half of his passes or generate more than 125 yards passing. He was producing big gainers reliably, getting chunk yards to the tune of league leading #'s, while producing "meh" to average efficiency #'s. Why wouldn't we want that as a fallback if our starter gets hurt. There's not much fall off other than sacks taken and Maye had a similar issue w/that horrendous UNC line play. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am big on playing down value of what we can get for players pretty much as a default position for eons.

 

But when Keim-Standig mention what's been said with people they talk to around the league that's a different gig.    The same reporters who played down (not up) what was being offered for Trent back in the day. 

 

I would take a fourth for Howell.  The dude can play and I think he's going to have a long career in the league even if he has to bounce around, somewhat like Baker Mayfield has.  I think he's a professional QB, it just didn't work out for him here.  The timing was wrong.  I don't want to throw Howell away given the very real threat of QB attrition, but I also don't think there is a place for him on the roster here any more.  A fourth round pick feels like a pretty graceful out and would be in the best interest of all parties.  Somebody gets cheap QB insurance, Howell gets a fresh start, and we get fairly generous compensation in return.

 

I wonder which two teams Ben's sources worked for?  The Vikings have two fourth round picks, I bet Howell could beat out Darnold in a camp battle.  The Broncos feel like a decent fit too.

[Riggo-toni]

22 hours ago, Going Commando said:

What did having Kirk get us?

The only back to back winning seasons during the entire Snyder era, and 2 trips to the playoffs ( we would not have made the playoffs in 2012 without him coming in for RGKnee).

[Going Commando]

17 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

If we coulda gotten a 4th from Howell we would have already.

 

My guess is we trade him sometime during/shortly after the draft when some team is left out of the QB class and offers some 2025 picks for him shortly before camp starts.

 

The vet QB market had to settle first before teams would be willing to give up compensation for guys like Howell and Fields.  Cousins and Wilson had to be the first dominos to fall as the only two surefire vet starters.  Might still have to wait on Tannehill to sign somewhere too, but that feels like a much lesser bet, and the team that signs him could still trade for a QB, especially one like Howell who is going to come cheap.

[klwilkins1977]

21 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

You've been chasing after Howell like a common hoo-ore for pages now.

Love the Joey Pants reference...😂😂😂

 

I am on the Howell train.  He showed enough to me before the entire roster and coaching staff quit to warrant a look with better players and a better staff surrounding him. The guy passed for 4k while seeing ghosts and running for his natural life/health last year.

[Skinsinparadise]

52 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

However, if you absolutely HAVE to extrapolate something based on this signing, I would go with they have a really good idea they are drafting Maye, they don't want Maye and Howell together because that could get awkward from a personal perspective, and this gives them the easy option to trade Howell and have the backup in place.

 

 

What's wild is Mariota and Maye are basically the exact same size.   As the PFf podcasters among others said yesterday, Mariota stylistically as a player in the pros is more similar to Maye than Daniels.   And good point about the dynamic about Howell and Maye.

 

I suspect all of this is incidental.  But i find it amusing that some see the tea leaves = Daniels.  Much easier to argue the opposite.

9 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I would take a fourth for Howell.  The dude can play and I think he's going to have a long career in the league even if he has to bounce around, somewhat like Baker Mayfield has.  I think he's a professional QB, it just didn't work out for him here.  The timing was wrong.  I don't want to throw Howell away given the very real threat of QB attrition, but I also don't think there is a place for him on the roster here any more.  A fourth round pick feels like a pretty graceful out and would be in the best interest of all parties.  Somebody gets cheap QB insurance, Howell gets a fresh start, and we get fairly generous compensation in return.

 

I wonder which two teams Ben's sources worked for?  The Vikings have two fourth round picks, I bet Howell could beat out Darnold in a camp battle.  The Broncos feel like a decent fit too.

 

He played one of his better games against Denver.   Maybe them?  Maybe the Raiders?