The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[philibusters]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wonder if Warner has thought about coaching. Martz and Vermeil weren't exactly Air Coryell disciples, but their offenses were pretty close.

Martz definitely ran the Air Coryell system.   

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, philibusters said:

Martz definitely ran the Air Coryell system.   

I was thinking that he did, but looking back at his coaching tree, there's no connection.

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wonder if Warner has thought about coaching. Martz and Vermeil weren't exactly Air Coryell disciples, but their offenses were pretty close.

As a high schooler in the late 1960s, Martz frequently sat in the bleachers at San Diego Stadium, where he would watch, spellbound, as Don Coryell’s Aztecs dismantled opponent after opponent with a high-powered offensive attack that was nearly impossible to stop. What struck Martz was how different it was.

Martz remembers marveling at how several of Coryell’s opponents would agree to play with a running clock in the second half of games, to spare themselves more embarrassment. He yearned to play for Coryell’s teams, but four years later he found himself suiting up against them as a tight end for Fresno State. Yet, as his playing career morphed into a coaching career, he remained transfixed by Coryell’s vision for what football could be.

“It all began with Don, to be honest with you,” Martz says. “We just expanded upon what Don did.”

 

 

I clipped that from an article obviously,  Martz may not have coached under Coryell but I would call him a disciple.

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, redskinss said:

As a high schooler in the late 1960s, Martz frequently sat in the bleachers at San Diego Stadium, where he would watch, spellbound, as Don Coryell’s Aztecs dismantled opponent after opponent with a high-powered offensive attack that was nearly impossible to stop. What struck Martz was how different it was.

Martz remembers marveling at how several of Coryell’s opponents would agree to play with a running clock in the second half of games, to spare themselves more embarrassment. He yearned to play for Coryell’s teams, but four years later he found himself suiting up against them as a tight end for Fresno State. Yet, as his playing career morphed into a coaching career, he remained transfixed by Coryell’s vision for what football could be.

“It all began with Don, to be honest with you,” Martz says. “We just expanded upon what Don did.”

 

 

I clipped that from an article obviously,  Martz may not have coached under Coryell but I would call him a disciple.

Makes total sense. I was pretty sure that Martz was from the tree, until I posted and decided to fact check myself.

[philibusters]

5 minutes ago, redskinss said:

As a high schooler in the late 1960s, Martz frequently sat in the bleachers at San Diego Stadium, where he would watch, spellbound, as Don Coryell’s Aztecs dismantled opponent after opponent with a high-powered offensive attack that was nearly impossible to stop. What struck Martz was how different it was.

Martz remembers marveling at how several of Coryell’s opponents would agree to play with a running clock in the second half of games, to spare themselves more embarrassment. He yearned to play for Coryell’s teams, but four years later he found himself suiting up against them as a tight end for Fresno State. Yet, as his playing career morphed into a coaching career, he remained transfixed by Coryell’s vision for what football could be.

“It all began with Don, to be honest with you,” Martz says. “We just expanded upon what Don did.”

 

 

I clipped that from an article obviously,  Martz may not have coached under Coryell but I would call him a disciple.

 

From wikipedia the two modern branches of the Coryell system are Norv Turners and Martz's.   Turners puts more emphasis on the run game and play action, whereas Martz runs less often and uses more motion pre-snap and less playaction than Turners version.

[RandyHolt]

I like Warner - hard not to like him even as a player shredding us. Interesting to hear Warner not like some of our play designs.  Curious if anyone hears that when he does other QBs. I am not sold on Norvous Jr and think our O has been lacking creativity among other things. I find it hard to shake the notion sharing a known NFL last name helps prop people up fair or not. It's like some overlook any issues thinking and assuming they will call dad for a quick consult.

 

For the record I marveled at how all coaches would agree to running out the clock in the first half of games showing absolutely no faith in their offense and system. And their defense for that matter if there were a turnover.

Edited August 27, 2022 by RandyHolt

[Warhead36]

I think our play designs last year were limited because of what Heinicke could or more importantly couldn't do physically. 

 

We'll see a different offense entirely come Week 1.

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, philibusters said:

 

From wikipedia the two modern branches of the Coryell system are Norv Turners and Martz's.   Turners puts more emphasis on the run game and play action, whereas Martz runs less often and uses more motion pre-snap and less playaction than Turners version.

Yeah, and Turner stresses the TE more. I can't remember any of Martz's TEs. Maybe that's just a brain clog though. I remember Martz using the deep passsing to open up the passes to the RB in a guy like Faulk who was just a weapon in that regard. Norv's pass catching RBs we're like 3rd down backs (Mitchell) but more often TEs . This is mostly from memory

[RandyHolt]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think our play designs last year were limited because of what Heinicke could or more importantly couldn't do physically. 

 

We'll see a different offense entirely come Week 1.

How different can it be vs what we have seen from Turner in his career. Curious if you can give a brief summary of what you predict is the difference fans will see (if it can be seen vs more subtle route changes etc).  Gibson used as a WR aside. 

 

The only way I foresee a visibly different offense is if he goes hurry up or pass happy.  Try for 10 yards on first down instead of 4. Run when tendencies say pass.

 

Regardless OCs league wide must design plays with lame duck QBs and overall seem to do OK. I suspect a bigger factor is RR's control over Turner and desire to run the ball between the tackles keep an overall conservative approach and slow down the games to keep overall scoring down.

 

[Koolblue13]

10 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

. I suspect a bigger factor is RR's control over Turner and desire to run the ball between the tackles keep an overall conservative approach and slow down the games to keep overall scoring down.

 

You think Ron wants to not score a lot of points?

 

 

 

Some of these first few plays look a lot like the plays Warner was talking about.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Koolblue13

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, philibusters said:

 

From wikipedia the two modern branches of the Coryell system are Norv Turners and Martz's.   Turners puts more emphasis on the run game and play action, whereas Martz runs less often and uses more motion pre-snap and less playaction than Turners version.

Yeah, and Turner stresses the TE more. I can't remember any of Martz's TEs. Maybe that's just a brain clog though. I remember Martz using the deep passsing to open up the passes to the RB in a guy like Faulk who was just a weapon in that regard. Norv's pass catching RBs we're like 3rd down backs (Mitchell) but more often TEs . This is mostly from memory

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I was thinking that he did, but looking back at his coaching tree, there's no connection.

I like to say I do some "half assed internet research."  Your research was REALLY half assed because it took me 32 seconds to see the connection. 

 

Martz was with the Rams from '92 - '96.  For the first 2 years, the OC was Ernie Zampese.  Then he came to the Redskins as the QB Coach under Norv from 97-98.  Then he went to the Rams as OC in 1999.  

 

There could have been an earlier connection, but he was our QB Coach under Norv from 97-98, right before he became the Ram's OC.

 

Norv ran the Coryell system.  Ernie ran the Coyrell system.   

 

Martz ran the Coryell system.  Though, of the Air Coryell systems, his was probably the most imaginative, because he used Faulk in a very non-traditional way, and the Ram's offense didn't feature the TE as much as a lot of the other implementations of that offense.  

 

EDIT: I see others got there first. 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason

[RandyHolt]

59 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You think Ron wants to not score a lot of points?

 

 

 

Some of these first few plays look a lot like the plays Warner was talking about.

 

 

 We have seen RR give up on games earlier than I can ever recall seeing (albeit 2 years ago now). He has more priorities than score moar including perhaps limiting injuries.

 

I think many coaches when dogs slow down games (bend dont break --> slow play on O to rest our D) and limit scoring desperately trying to keep it a 1 possession game. I am sure you know this strategy.  Yeah the game is changing towards shootouts / aggressively trying to get the ball back/score at end of the first half) but until I see hurry up and passing on first used far more - I predict RR stays conservative. He is no longer a trend setter going for it on 4th down. 

 

Its gotten better under Ron but for decades we would be down 3 scores with 6 minutes left still slow playing under center.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I like to say I do some "half assed internet research."  Your research was REALLY half assed because it took me 32 seconds to see the connection. 

 

Martz was with the Rams from '92 - '96.  For the first 2 years, the OC was Ernie Zampese.  Then he came to the Redskins as the QB Coach under Norv from 97-98.  Then he went to the Rams as OC in 1999.  

 

There could have been an earlier connection, but he was our QB Coach under Norv from 97-98, right before he became the Ram's OC.

 

Norv ran the Coryell system.  Ernie ran the Coyrell system.   

 

Martz ran the Coryell system.  Though, of the Air Coryell systems, his was probably the most imaginative, because he used Faulk in a very non-traditional way, and the Ram's offense didn't feature the TE as much as a lot of the other implementations of that offense.  

This is why fact checking is bull**** and I should just trust my memories, no matter how much drugs and alcohol I've dumped on it. I believe in me! 

Just now, RandyHolt said:

 We have seen RR give up on games earlier than I can ever recall seeing (albeit 2 years ago now). He has more priorities than score moar including perhaps limiting injuries.

 

I think many coaches when dogs slow down games (bend dont break --> slow play on O to rest our D) and limit scoring desperately trying to keep it a 1 possession game. I am sure you know this strategy.  Yeah the game is changing towards shootouts / aggressively trying to get the ball back/score at end of the first half) but until I see hurry up and passing on first used far more - I predict RR stays conservative. He is no longer a trend setter going for it on 4th down. 

 

Its gotten better under Ron but for decades we would be down 3 scores with 6 minutes left still slow playing under center.

For decades? Ron has been here for 3 years and I've seen us lean on the run, when our QB play sucks. But he has no history of that with us or back with the Panthers. 

 

Ron also doesn't call plays.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, RandyHolt said:

 We have seen RR give up on games earlier than I can ever recall seeing (albeit 2 years ago now). He has more priorities than score moar including perhaps limiting injuries.

 

I think many coaches when dogs slow down games (bend dont break --> slow play on O to rest our D) and limit scoring desperately trying to keep it a 1 possession game. I am sure you know this strategy.  Yeah the game is changing towards shootouts / aggressively trying to get the ball back/score at end of the first half) but until I see hurry up and passing on first used far more - I predict RR stays conservative. He is no longer a trend setter going for it on 4th down. 

 

Its gotten better under Ron but for decades we would be down 3 scores with 6 minutes left still slow playing under center.

I said then, and I believe now, he gave up on games when he knew they had virtually no chance to win them, and didn't want to risk further mistakes from the QB who did not have a command of the offense.  He was also battling cancer at the time, and maybe if that wasn't the case, and he was thinking more clearly, he would have handled things differently.

 

I will die on this hill: if COVID doesn't shut down the entire 2020 off-season, Haskins does not start the opener.  They had to make a call at the beginning of camp whether to give Haskins all the reps to get him ready, or to have a competition and split the reps.  They decided they were just going to go with Haskins, give him all the reps, and see what happened.

 

If they had an off-season in 2020, they would have known before Camp Haskins wasn't getting it, and would have had the competition going in camp, and Allen probably wins the job.  (Which I'm not sure would have been much better, but Allen was at least competent with the offense, and significantly less physically limited than TH.  Granted, he fell out of favor somehow, but at the beginning of 2020, he was part of the Carolina Mafia, the team had traded a 5th for him, he knew the system.)

 

I don't think it's possible to overstate how meaningful it was that the 2020 off-season, Ron's first, was canceled by COVID.  I think it effected a whole bunch of things. And then, just as they are getting ready for Camp, he's diagnosed with cancer.  Put those two things together, and then Add Haskins struggling, Allen getting hurt, Smith having to play, and then getting hurt, my God, the fact they won 7 games in 2020, even against a very weak slate of games was something of a minor miracle.

 

Last year, I don't think there was a chance we could have won a shootout with TH.  He didn't have the tools to do so.  The only way to win was the way we won in the 4 game winning streak: Run the everliving stuffing out of the ball, hope and pray we convert more 3rd downs than the opponent, and win 17-15.  You had to try and control the clock and control the game, because there's no way you could put the game on TH's shoulders, they were just too limited.  And to be fair to TH (to an extent), they also had one legitimate pass-catcher, in TM for a good part of the season.  Samuel was hurt, Logan Thomas missed the majority of the year, and then McKissic misssed the end of the season.  They were trying to cobble together a skill position group with McLauren, Sims, Dotson, Patterson and a few others in addition to Gibson, who was the workhorse back.  They just didn't have the horses to try and play up-tempo and get into a shootout.  

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

 

Yep, don't care for him as a player.  But as a dude, don't want him to be hurt.   Looks like Mayfield is getting some buzz for his camp-preseason.  I can't help root against Mayfield.  I don't want the narrative that we could have gotten Mayfield for a ham sandwich if he plays well.  So I am rooting against him.  😀

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Go Sam!

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

The Colts are becoming the Cowboys for me in the AFC.  I hate that team the more I digest this off season.

 

And I thought i was one of the bigger Matt Ryan guys.  Matt is better IMO than some on this thread give him credit for.  Yet, IMO he doesn't warrant the hype he's getting from the national media and Indy media.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Colts are becoming the Cowboys for me in the AFC.  I hate that team the more I digest this off season.

 

And I thought i was one of the bigger Matt Ryan guys.  Matt is better IMO than some on this thread give him credit for.  Yet, IMO he doesn't warrant the hype he's getting from the national media and Indy media.  

 

 

Not to mention:

Ryan >>> Wentz

Wentz>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Heinicke

 

McLaurin got a much bigger upgrade at QB.

[RandyHolt]

Upgrade for Pittman is that Ryan has a history of feeding his #1

 

[kwitt]

Can we start a thread of Howell ugly the uniforms are?  My God I can't hate them more than I do.

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, kwitt said:

Can we start a thread of Howell ugly the uniforms are?  My God I can't hate them more than I do.

There is one. The We Are Now thread.

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

He went from a QB who had 27 TDs and 7 INTs last season to a QB who had 20 TDs and 12 INTs...and that's a massive upgrade?

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

He went from a QB who had 27 TDs and 7 INTs last season to a QB who had 20 TDs and 12 INTs...and that's a massive upgrade?

The Colts booed Lucks final walk off and have been **** ever since with a different QB every year. **** them. They're done.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

4 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Upgrade for Pittman is that Ryan has a history of feeding his #1

 

 

I thought that was the Shanahan system and not Ryan? Could be wrong.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Long story short from a full pre-season game, Howell has potential but is not ready yet. So basically his young QB hype remains the same. Which is probably a pretty good thing since so many rookie QB's look a little too out of their element. At least we know he's not one of the guys who "can't hack it".

Edited August 28, 2022 by Always A Commander Never A Captain