2022 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Darrell Green Fan]

26 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So then don't. 

 

 

So first of all, they WERE desperate for a QB.  And you know, THAT'S OK.  What is not ok is actually being desperate and not acknowledging it or doing anything about it.  Things worked out as badly as humanly possible with Haskins (RIP) in 2020, and so the overall 15th pick in the 2019 draft was off the roster within 2 years.  

 

They drafted at 19 in 2021, so they didn't have a lot of options.  They swung for Stafford and missed.  They could have traded up for Mac Jones, but I don't think THEY felt like that was really solving anything, and would have cost at least a 3rd, probably more, to move up to get him.  They could have traded up for Fields, but that would have taken a boatload to move up from 19 to 8 to get him.  

 

In 2022, they weren't getting Rodgers, Wilson or Carr.  Rodgers and Carr stayed put, whether Wilson wanted to come here or not, Seattle was going to trade him to the AFC.  So he wasn't an option.  They (and the rest of the NFL) clearly hated the QB class.  Ron stated they started evaluating the QB draft class early.  They knew by the combine there was nobody they wanted in the draft at the 11th pick.  

 

So, knowing this, here are your choices:  try to sign Mitch, Mariota, Dalton, Teddy (or I guess stick with TH) and draft a guy who you don't love and see what happens and almost certainly be in the same situation in 12 months OR pull the trigger for Wentz, who at least is a bona fide starter, with some upside.  They chose to take a shot on a legitimate starter instead of knowing the outcome. 

 

Sure they were desperate.  It really wasn't their fault they got into that situation, as a lot of it was because of the situation they inherited from the previous dufuses.  

 

They also REALLY think they have a good, playoff team if they had a QB.  They knew the minute Fitz went down there was basically no shot at the playoffs.  TH is an ok backup and spot starter, he can't start 16 games for you.  (I know, he started 15, played half of the opener and missed a game with COVID.  I get it.)

 

So, yeah, they are trying to shore up areas they believe they need some depth in, and they believe in their roster more than the fans do.  I don't know if they are right or not, but I've said it before:
 

The bet they are placing is with legitimate starting QB play, the entire team is going to look entirely different and be a contender in the NFC East.  Are they right?  Dunno, but luckily, they're going to play the season, so we will find out. 

 

Hamilton also has a chance to be a bust if he truly lacks speed.  I trust the Raven's FO also.  But they are not infallible.  They have had some swings and misses also.  Every team does.  

 

That's actually not why I didn't want them to pick Hamilton.  This team needs to improve dramatically on offense, and particularly in the passing game because it's now an offensive league dominated by the passing game.  They got Wentz.  Now you have McLaurin, Dotson, Samuel (who looks to be healthy), Brown, Sims, Gibson, McKissic, Robinson in addition to the TEs to surround him.  That's a lot of speed, a lot of versatility.  It's not a bad group.

 

Now the focus switches to Scott Turner and Wentz.  They have to figure out how to make this a 25+ ppg offense.  That would put them in the top half of the league based on 2021 numbers.   That needs to be the floor for the offense, assuming Wentz doesn't get hurt.  27 ppg would be better.  

 

They don't need Hamilton.  They have enough players on defense to be a good defense if they just get their **** together.  They need offense.  I'm so sick and tired of trying to win games 17-15.  Get players and go score points.  It's not 1956 anymore. 

 

Of course they need Hamilton. Perhaps the biggest issue with this team, outside of the QB, was the inability to get off the field on 3rd and 7. It's a huge problem that has been going on for a few seasons now.  So they passed on a player who has the real potential to be an impact player, reached 1-2 rounds to fill a need they created for themselves at DT when that was a position of strength, and drafted for the quick fix by filling immediate needs instead of taking the best player as the successful teams do for the most part.  

 

The only pick that appeared to be for the future was the QB. They needed a developmental QB for sure but the question has to be asked:  How many 5th round QBs ever turn into the real answer at QB?  The best they can hope for realistically is they drafted another Nate Sudfeld.  

Edited May 4, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Of course they need Hamilton. Perhaps the biggest issue with this team, outside of the QB, was the inability to get off the field on 3rd and 7. It's a huge problem that has been going on for a few seasons now.  So they passed on a player who has the real potential to be an impact player, reached 1-2 rounds to fill a need they created for themselves at DT when that was a position of strength, and drafted for the quick fix by filling needs instead of taking the best player as the successful teams do for the most part.  

Go score more points and rush the passer better.  And they can find other ways to full the Buffalo Nickel role than a safety at 11. They also need to coach better.  But they didn't need to have ANOTHER first round pick on defense.  

 

And there is no such thing as a reach.  It doesn't exist. It's a media creation manufactured by Mel Kiper's hairspray.  The draftniks say "this guy is 189 on my board, he was picked at 145, therefor REACH!"  Except they have no idea what the boards of the 32 teams look like.  There is no consensus "round" as to where a player should be slotted.   in the  Standig article which came out today, a GM and executive said that's about where they thought he would go. Just because Mel and Thor freaking Neistrom (or any draft prognosticator) doesn't make it a reach.  

 

The "position of need" they caused for themselves is because they had an underperforming unit and needed to change things up.  MI was going to be released, he never regained his form and clashed with coaches.  Settle played ~18% of plays.  They didn't love him.  They also got a player who does different things than either of them.  He can play over the nose, which neither could, he's a good run-stuffer, he can eat up blocks and keep LBs clean.  

 

I was adamantly against drafting Hamilton from the get go.  I didn't want any defensive player at 11.  

 

They have devoted so many resources to defense in the draft.  They had to go offense.  

 

Getting Hamilton might improve the defense slightly.  He doesn't play a role in today's NFL that will change it that dramatically.  Chase Young, Montez Sweat, Jon Allen, Daron Payne, Kendall Fuller, WJIII, Holcomb and Davis have to step up and play to their skill level.  If they do, then they don't need a high-round rotational DB to save them. 

[Dark Acre]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Whether you believe in reaches or not, I don't see how you can call a guy taken at 16 vs. 23 a reach unless you have a pick at 16 and maybe 18?

You know who was a reach?  Lavar Arrington, because we took him at #2 and could've gotten him at #3.  Right?  You know who was a steal?  Chris Samuels, because we got him at #3 and we could've gotten him at #2.

[Darrell Green Fan]

16 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Go score more points and rush the passer better.  And they can find other ways to full the Buffalo Nickel role than a safety at 11. They also need to coach better.  But they didn't need to have ANOTHER first round pick on defense.  

 

And there is no such thing as a reach.  It doesn't exist. It's a media creation manufactured by Mel Kiper's hairspray.  The draftniks say "this guy is 189 on my board, he was picked at 145, therefor REACH!"  Except they have no idea what the boards of the 32 teams look like.  There is no consensus "round" as to where a player should be slotted.   in the  Standig article which came out today, a GM and executive said that's about where they thought he would go. Just because Mel and Thor freaking Neistrom (or any draft prognosticator) doesn't make it a reach.  

 

The "position of need" they caused for themselves is because they had an underperforming unit and needed to change things up.  MI was going to be released, he never regained his form and clashed with coaches.  Settle played ~18% of plays.  They didn't love him.  They also got a player who does different things than either of them.  He can play over the nose, which neither could, he's a good run-stuffer, he can eat up blocks and keep LBs clean.  

 

I was adamantly against drafting Hamilton from the get go.  I didn't want any defensive player at 11.  

 

They have devoted so many resources to defense in the draft.  They had to go offense.  

 

Getting Hamilton might improve the defense slightly.  He doesn't play a role in today's NFL that will change it that dramatically.  Chase Young, Montez Sweat, Jon Allen, Daron Payne, Kendall Fuller, WJIII, Holcomb and Davis have to step up and play to their skill level.  If they do, then they don't need a high-round rotational DB to save them. 

 

The player and his agent said they were expecting the pick to be a round or 2 later.  So there's that. 

 

What you are failing to consider is how this defense hindered their offense.  Allowing teams to constantly convert 3rd downs not only gives the opponent more opportunities to score it keeps the Washington offense on the bench. Even if the team didn't score they were able to flip the field and Washington was constantly starting with bad field position.  This defense also rarely created short fields for the offense with turnovers.  If you are going to argue that Hamilton does not possess the ability (potentially) to change this, and in the process HELP the offense, well I'll just respectfully disagree.  

Edited May 4, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Dark Acre said:

You know who was a reach?  Lavar Arrington, because we took him at #2 and could've gotten him at #3.  Right?  You know who was a steal?  Chris Samuels, because we got him at #3 and we could've gotten him at #2.

Can’t tell if you’re serious or not but that’s not what I mean. 
 

 

[Kelvin Bryant]

53 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Interesting interview thanks. Couple of observations, TH is done at QB. Plus Rivera said they really like a couple of the Alabama LB’s. Wonder if Harris would have been the pick in the third if he hadn’t been picked at 75. Assume Alabama LBs in 2023 may be high on the watch list.

I must have watched a different interview. In the one I saw, Rivera said he was very happy with his top two QBs, Carson and Taylor ("...who we really like a lot"). He said Howell is in a position where he can learn from the top two guys without a lot of immediate pressure.

[Est.1974]

16 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

I must have watched a different interview. In the one I saw, Rivera said he was very happy with his top two QBs, Carson and Taylor ("...who we really like a lot"). He said Howell is in a position where he can learn from the top two guys without a lot of immediate pressure.

Rivera keeps reiterating that TH can’t make the throws to run this offseason. It won’t end well. Howell certainly gets the summer to battle for the #2 gig.

[Dark Acre]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Can’t tell if you’re serious or not but that’s not what I mean. 

Look, I'm on Bactrim 2x/day this week.  I need a little humor in my life.

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

I must have watched a different interview. In the one I saw, Rivera said he was very happy with his top two QBs, Carson and Taylor ("...who we really like a lot"). He said Howell is in a position where he can learn from the top two guys without a lot of immediate pressure.

 

You really believe a coach when he says that? When have you ever heard a coach dog any player? His comments were coach speak, they mean nothing.

[Kelvin Bryant]

6 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

You really believe a coach when he says that? When have you ever heard a coach dog any player? His comments were coach speak, they mean nothing.

If that's the case, why would you believe anything he says? Why bother to watch his interviews at all?

[CapsSkins]

Coach has been super clear that Wentz and Heinicke are QB1 and QB2 this year. Now, next year that could change really in both cases depending on how things go. But right now, Howell's only job is to learn and develop without any pressure to come in and be the guy (which I think is smart - let him sit).

[Darrell Green Fan]

38 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

If that's the case, why would you believe anything he says? Why bother to watch his interviews at all?

 

I rarely do for the reasons I just stated. If he really likes TH a lot then why did he spend the previous two off seasons trying like crazy to replace him? I believe actions and not coach speak reveals the true feelings

Edited May 4, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

The player and his agent said they were expecting the pick to be a round or 2 later.  So there's that. 

The player snd the agent are getting their info from the media pundits.  And the agent always sandbags because if they set expectations high and then the player drops they look like an idiot.  
 

There is no team who is going to tell an agent their plans.  Because if you do the agent will leverage that info against them 10@ times out of 100.

 

So agents get information from Mel and Todd and then package at their own and tell the player.

 

This argument is also busted.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The player snd the agent are getting their info from the media pundits.  And the agent always sandbags because if they set expectations high and then the player drops they look like an idiot.  
 

There is no team who is going to tell an agent their plans.  Because if you do the agent will leverage that info against them 10@ times out of 100.

 

So agents get information from Mel and Todd and then package at their own and tell the player.

 

This argument is also busted.  

 No he said he got that feedback when talking with the teams.

 

Would you mind addressing my points about Hamilton could in fact help the offense in the post you quoted but omitted that part

Edited May 4, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Rivera keeps reiterating that TH can’t make the throws to run this offseason. It won’t end well. Howell certainly gets the summer to battle for the #2 gig.

Yeah but Ron isn’t going to say that out loud for a good long time because there is no reason to.  
 

I do think they like TH’s ability to come in mid-game and make something if it.  I’m not sure they are going to trust Howell to do that as a rookie.  
 

They might keep TH as the in-game backup but start Howell if Wentz misses game.  Teams have done that with rookies. 

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 No that feedback was given to them by other general managers.

No it wasn’t.  
 

Because GMs won’t divulge that info.  Because the agent would not be doing their job if they didn’t go to another team and tell the other team that info in order to get somebody to pick the player sooner.  
 

No GM is going to truthfully tell an agent anything about where their player is going to be picked.  
 

Also, in Standig’s article, there were several folks who said “that’s about where they should go”

 

 

[KDawg]

16 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 No he said he got that feedback when talking with the teams.

 

Would you mind addressing my points about Hamilton could in fact help the offense in the post you quoted but omitted that part

Sure. The same can be said in reverse. If the offense is scoring points and gives the D a lead it allows our defensive front, which has been highly invested in, to do what they were drafted to do: pin their ears back and get after the QB.

 

Hamilton or Lloyd would have improved us defensively. Zero question about it. But even if we hold teams to 14, if we don’t improve our O we’re in trouble. 
 

So the natural response is… take a receiver in round 2. Which… okay fair… But now you’re not getting Brian Robinson because we didn’t trade back. So now you get a 2nd round talent at receiver and a RB further down the board in the 4th or 5th.

 

Some probably like that idea better and I do get it…

 

But how many years in a row are we going to invest our top pick on the D and watch the offense sputter?

 

And if you take a RB in the 4th you’re probably looking DT in the fifth. And now we don’t get Howell.

 

Theres no right or wrong answer here. I think they did the smart thing by finally giving the offense some attention after years of beefing up the D and not getting the desired results. The definition of insanity and all…

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Of course they need Hamilton. Perhaps the biggest issue with this team, outside of the QB, was the inability to get off the field on 3rd and 7. It's a huge problem that has been going on for a few seasons now.  So they passed on a player who has the real potential to be an impact player, reached 1-2 rounds to fill a need they created for themselves at DT when that was a position of strength, and drafted for the quick fix by filling immediate needs instead of taking the best player as the successful teams do for the most part.  

 

The only pick that appeared to be for the future was the QB. They needed a developmental QB for sure but the question has to be asked:  How many 5th round QBs ever turn into the real answer at QB?  The best they can hope for realistically is they drafted another Nate Sudfeld.  

 

The offense didn't need the defense's help. They were crappy all on their own. They weren't putting up points when they were on the field. That isn't the defense's fault. There were multiple games we lost where our defense held the opposing team's offense to their average points scored or below but our offense couldn't put up points and scored below or well below the average of what the opposing team's defense had been allowing.

 

Our offense was pitiful. There's only so many 1st round picks you can invest in your defense before you start to realize that it might actually help your team if you scored points.

[Kelvin Bryant]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I rarely do for the reasons I just stated. If he really likes TH a lot then why did he spend the previous two off seasons trying like crazy to replace him? I believe actions and not coach speak reveals the true feelings

Rivera may have felt a strong need to replace TH as QB1 and yet be entirely comfortable with him as QB2. No inconsistency required.

In addition to "coach speak" there is also such a thing as "fan listen" - when fans blow off a coach's comments with which they disagree as mere lip service.

[Dark Acre]

There were probably Pats fans calling Tom Brady a reach in 2000 because they could've gotten him in the 7th and they had a decent QB at the time anyway.  Then there's Cleveland, taking Spurgeon Wynn (who?) 16 picks ahead of Brady.  (Fun fact, Brady has outlasted everybody else from his draft class, and when you exclude K and P, the last guy standing fell in 2014.)

[UK Skins]

I personally love the Dotson, Robinson and Howell picks and I like the fact we drafted a TE and a safety too. I hate the Mathis pick, as so many do, but that's because it seemed need driven and I hadn't read anything about the guy before the draft. I'm very happy to be proved wrong but if the other five pan out (I'm ignoring the 7th rounders) then Mathis can be a bust for all I care.

[KDawg]

38 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

I personally love the Dotson, Robinson and Howell picks and I like the fact we drafted a TE and a safety too. I hate the Mathis pick, as so many do, but that's because it seemed need driven and I hadn't read anything about the guy before the draft. I'm very happy to be proved wrong but if the other five pan out (I'm ignoring the 7th rounders) then Mathis can be a bust for all I care.

Mathis is an animal. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

11 hours ago, KDawg said:

Sure. The same can be said in reverse. If the offense is scoring points and gives the D a lead it allows our defensive front, which has been highly invested in, to do what they were drafted to do: pin their ears back and get after the QB.

 

Hamilton or Lloyd would have improved us defensively. Zero question about it. But even if we hold teams to 14, if we don’t improve our O we’re in trouble. 
 

So the natural response is… take a receiver in round 2. Which… okay fair… But now you’re not getting Brian Robinson because we didn’t trade back. So now you get a 2nd round talent at receiver and a RB further down the board in the 4th or 5th.

 

Some probably like that idea better and I do get it…

 

But how many years in a row are we going to invest our top pick on the D and watch the offense sputter?

 

And if you take a RB in the 4th you’re probably looking DT in the fifth. And now we don’t get Howell.

 

Theres no right or wrong answer here. I think they did the smart thing by finally giving the offense some attention after years of beefing up the D and not getting the desired results. The definition of insanity and all…

 

Again my point was a player like Hamilton could help improve on the team's biggest weakness, getting off the field on 3rd and 7 which would be a huge impact on the offense.  Sure if the offense scores more the other team will become one dimensional and the defense can pin their ears back. But at what point in the game?  Surely not in the first half when teams do not totally abandon their game plan down 17-7.  Hamilton's presence would have an affect from the first play to the last.

 

This defense has been overrated for several years now, that should be obvious.  They rarely create turnovers giving the offense a short field, they allow long drives that forces Washington to start with poor field position.  So many predict that this guy could be a star and a real game changer, not too many are saying that about the guy Washington picked. At least not at the same level.  We all know they could be wrong but at this point in time this is all we have to go on.    

 

When you pass over higher rated players, and virtually everyone had Hamilton rated higher than Jahan Dotson, to fill a need you are doing it wrong.  

Edited May 5, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan

[KDawg]

Just now, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Again my point was a player like Hamilton could help improve on the team's biggest weakness, getting off the field on 3rd and 7 which would be a huge impact for the offense.  Sure if the offense scores more the defense can pin their ears back. But at what point in the game?  Surely not in the first half.  Hamilton's presence would have an affect from the first play to the last.

 

This defense has been overrated for several years now, that should be obvious.  They rarely create turnovers giving the offense a short field, they allow long drives that forces Washington to start with poor field position.  So many predict that this guy could be a star and a real game changer, not too many are saying that about the guy Washington picked. At least not at the same level.  We all know they could be wrong but at this point in time this is all we have to go on.    

 

When you pass over higher rated players, and virtually everyone had Hamilton rated higher than Jahan Dotson, to fill a need you are doing it wrong.  

 

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

 

I don't care what people are saying. That's such a poor way to judge anything. 

 

But yes, our defense IS overrated. But we've invested heavy resources every single year in it. What we have not done is focused on the offense. The defense struggled big time last year, but so did the O. And I'm not sure Hamilton makes the immediate impact here that you think he would have. I think he'd be a great player, absolutely. But a FS in the early 1st isn't a great look. But Hamilton isn't Sean Taylor. As good as Hamilton is, and he is really good, I think people think he's some absolute terror on the field that is unstoppable and will strike fear in offenses from day 1. In reality he's a really good safety that can roll down and play in the box and help a team. He's not a game breaker. Not yet.

 

I don't know how it's possible but this fanbase is overrating one of the top prospects in the draft a bit.

 

Yes, he'd help us. Yes, he'd make our D look better.

 

No argument.

 

But let's add more resources to the defense that has had nothing but resources and let's let the offense flounder again. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

 

I don't care what people are saying. That's such a poor way to judge anything. 

 

But yes, our defense IS overrated. But we've invested heavy resources every single year in it. What we have not done is focused on the offense. The defense struggled big time last year, but so did the O. And I'm not sure Hamilton makes the immediate impact here that you think he would have. I think he'd be a great player, absolutely. But a FS in the early 1st isn't a great look. But Hamilton isn't Sean Taylor. As good as Hamilton is, and he is really good, I think people think he's some absolute terror on the field that is unstoppable and will strike fear in offenses from day 1. In reality he's a really good safety that can roll down and play in the box and help a team. He's not a game breaker. Not yet.

 

I don't know how it's possible but this fanbase is overrating one of the top prospects in the draft a bit.

 

Yes, he'd help us. Yes, he'd make our D look better.

 

No argument.

 

But let's add more resources to the defense that has had nothing but resources and let's let the offense flounder again. 

 

If you don't care what other people are saying then why should I care what you say?  I'm only half kidding. 

 

Look it's very simple. Nobody said Kyle Hamilton was Sean Taylor. But virtually everyone had him rated much higher than Dotson.  There is no arguing this point.  Sure they could all be wrong, we all know this, but it's pretty clear that "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" is not a solid argument.  Who cares if the invested picks in the defense and it didn't really work out? That's no reason to stop drafting potential impact defensive players. If the Lions had taken that approach they would have passed on Calvin Johnson because all their other first round WR picks didn't pan out.  

Edited May 5, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

If you don't care what other people are saying then why should I care what you say?  I'm only half kidding. 

 

Look it's very simple. Nobody said Kyle Hamilton was Sean Taylor. But virtually everyone had him rated much higher than Dotson.  There is no arguing this point.  Sure they could all be wrong, we all know this, but it's pretty clear that "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" is not a solid argument.  Who cares if the invested picks in the defense and it didn't really work out? That's no reason to stop drafting potential impact defensive players. If the Lions had taken that approach they would have passed on Calvin Johnson because all their other first round WR picks didn't pan out.  

 

Good thing that was never my argument. Nor did I disagree that Hamilton was a higher rated prospect than Dotson.

 

But I don't believe in Pure BPA. 

 

Look, it's very simple: We have invested very little in the offense and it continually stinks. We have invested a ton in the defense and it has been good to meh.

 

One of the lowest scoring offenses in the league for 2 years running. 

 

Shoring up the D to lose 14-10 sure sounds fun to me. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by KDawg