Biden/Harris Legislative/Policy Discussions - Now with a Republican House starting 2023

[tshile]

1 hour ago, ixcuincle said:

the issue is everyone wants to make excuses to why Biden is popular dating from 50 percent of the country hates his ass to just "oh it's no big deal he's trailing in polls polls mean nothing". No, he's not infallible and shouldn't be spoken of as such. some things he has done are good and others bad. talk about the bad. 

your posts on this are entering “mind numbingly stupid” territory, to put it nicely, and there’s a really solid argument they already entered that territory and a while ago. 
 

you are not going to find sycophant-like posting very often here about Biden. Yes, there are people who overly praise the Biden admin and lack any objectiveness when discussing actual political issues, or seem to be unable to discuss a Republican idea beyond “all republicans are bad racists”. It does exist, those people are stupid, and it is what it is. But it’s not the level of the view or some msnbc guest/host rants. 
 

but beyond that, Biden inherited a government that was intentionally kneecapped from within and a government that’s global reputation was intentionally sabotaged including important relationships with historic and meaningful allies. 
 

so when you talk about Biden approval ratings what you’re really talking about is what a bunch of uninformed people in general public think about a person doing a job they don’t understand. Biden will never get anywhere near the credit he deserves for the backend fixing he’s done with the government after Trump tried to shove the whole thing through a wood chipper. 
 

I do not think Biden is awesome. I routinely lambast the democrats here. I would prefer someone else run for the D nomination. 
 

But it is obvious to anyone that pays attention that he has done a solid job fixing things. He is not a bad president. And the implication in your posts suggests you don’t know what you’re talking about. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by tshile

[Larry]

Just now, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

easy. Seasonality due to the holiday shopping season.  If those same numbers happen in January HMU.

 

1)  They're seasonally-adjusted numbers.  

 

2)  And they've happened for 32 months.  In those 32 months, there's been exactly one month where the economy added less than 200,000 jobs.  And only 7 that added less than 300,000.  

 

Your attempt to just wave your hand and ignore that number by reciting the magic phrase "outlier" is a lie.  

 

The Jedi Mind Trick works in the places that you get your slogans from.  (Obviously.  They worked on you.)  They don't work on people who actually use facts.  

 

9 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

The next time someone says “But Trump was good for my wallet” just say ok then point to all the other horrible things the has done and ask them if they are a whore.

 

Sorry.  The reason why we have, well, people who argue like you, is because of people who just shrug their shoulders and say "well, the pertson is a delusional idiot, but let's pretend that what he said is true".  

 

You have formed your "style", in a place where someone can point out that the economy has been adding staggering numbers of jobs, uninterrupted, from the moment Biden entered office, (notice, I did not say "because of Biden's actions"), and somebody can say "But Covid".  And everybody in the echo chamber acts like the person doesn't deserve to be committed for psychiatric help.  

[tshile]

1 hour ago, ixcuincle said:

The media is going all out to praise Biden and frankly it's pathetic.

Biden does not get a fair shake in the media

 

mostly because the media loves sound bites and the republicans provide plenty of them so the media spends their time catering to those sound bites 

 

in order for Biden to get a fair shake, the media would have to be willing to discuss and explain complicated and boring, yet important, parts of the government. 
 

but they’re not because the general public isn’t smart enough to see the value in it, nor sit through such discussions and understand it. 
 

this very same problem is what allowed Trump to destroy these very same complicated and boring, yet important, functions of government because the general public doesn’t pay attention or understand. 

[tshile]

This problem I’m highlighting is why when Trump destroys a very important and historic alliance, people paying attention would go “uh, hey, this is a really bad thing and I’m super concerned about what the motives are that led to doing this because it implies there’s maybe something really bad going on behind the scenes we don’t yet know about”

 

and the dumb general public is like “derp derp how much is a carton of eggs derpity derp derp derp”

[dfitzo53]

2 hours ago, ixcuincle said:

the issue is everyone wants to make excuses to why Biden is popular dating from 50 percent of the country hates his ass to just "oh it's no big deal he's trailing in polls polls mean nothing". No, he's not infallible and shouldn't be spoken of as such. some things he has done are good and others bad. talk about the bad. 

You keep saying "talk about the bad" and such, but you haven't made one coherent claim about something he's done that was bad. 

 

I don't mean "immigration", I mean what he did, why it was wrong, and what you think should have been done instead. 

 

If you aren't prepared to answer that, I'm not sure how we're supposed to take your point of view seriously. 

[Larry]

7 minutes ago, tshile said:

I do not think Biden is awesome. I routinely lambast the democrats here. I would prefer someone else run for the D nomination. 
 

But it is obvious to anyone that pays attention that he has done a solid job fixing things. He is not a bad president. And the implication in your posts suggests you don’t know what you’re talking about. 

 

Hey.  In terms of things that I think don't get noticed as much as they should, but I think that "the Biden Administration" (I have no clue whether it was Biden personally, or a subordinate.  And don't care.  Whether it was him, or somebody he picked, it's still part of the package.)  should get huge props for?  

 

1)  Remember the Debt Ceiling negotiations?  

 

Biden successfully maneuvered the Republicans into renouncing demanding cuts to Social Security and Medicaid.  (And then, if you were paying attention, revealing that hey, if you take those things off the table, then they really don't have any other objectives.)  

 

That, to me, has got to be a tremendous demonstration of how to correctly use politics.  

 

2)  And I'd list the handling of Ukraine, too.  

 

Face it.  Five years ago, what would have happened if a poster in here had said that the US would manage to more than decimate ("Decimate" means "to kill 1/10".  We've done well over half.) the entire Russian military.  And do it without sending a single American combat troop.  We'd do it, mostly, by sending over a lot of Army Surplus equipment.  (And non-material things, like training and a ****load of intel.)  

 

(And the Republicans are pissed about that, too.)  

 

Those two things, I feel pretty confident in actually giving the Biden credit for happening, because of things they actually did.  (As opposed to "well, it happened while they were in office.")  

[CousinsCowgirl84]

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

 

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Your attempt to just wave your hand and ignore that number by reciting the magic phrase "outlier" is a lie.  

 

The Jedi Mind Trick works in the places that you get your slogans from.  (Obviously.  They worked on you.)  They don't work on people who actually use facts.  

 

uh.. lol?

 

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

 

You have formed your "style", in a place where someone can point out that the economy has been adding staggering numbers of jobs, uninterrupted, from the moment Biden entered office, (notice, I did not say "because of Biden's actions"), and somebody can say "But Covid". 

 

Because a lot of the job growth is due to covid. And if you agree it isn’t “because of Biden’s actions” then why die on the hill every time someone says the economy under Biden is the same or worse than under Trumps. 

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, dfitzo53 said:

You keep saying "talk about the bad" and such, but you haven't made one coherent claim about something he's done that was bad. 

Bad is a strong word. Given the backdrop of Trump, “bad” has a different meaning to me that it probably previously did. 
 

but things he’s done that I don’t like that I think are bad, but not awful:

- I don’t think he’s done anything about immigration 

- the student loan debt stuff is so dumb and doesn’t solve any problem, it only placates a specific group of people. Solve the problem. 
- the “give poor people money, proclaim we lifted people out of poverty, then accuse republicans of sending children back into poverty” nonsense they pulled is deplorable. They didn’t fix a ****ing thing. They gave some people some money, temporarily, to get the mathematically above and arbitrary line. 
- I hate the way he discussed the economy, as previously discussed, I just hate when people are intentionally disingenuous

 

 

there are other things but they’re more or

less along the same lines and you get the point. 
 

and I’m not really sure what he’s supposed to do when the GOP has enough power to gridlock things. The president is not a king, at some point you have to be honest about what is actually possible before you start grading someone on what they did and didn’t do. 
 

for example - it’s impossible for me to fly to the moon this afternoon. Grading me on that seems stupid. 

5 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Because a lot of the job growth is due to covid. And if you agree it isn’t “because of Biden’s actions” then why die on the hill every time someone says the economy under Biden is the same or worse than under Trumps. 

Uhhhh

 

So I agree with the whole Covid thing when it comes to numbers. Without context it’s disingenuous at best

 

but the Trump economy was fraught with random jerks of the wheel via tweet. Every day was a “what is this moron gonna say on twitter that ****s things up today”

 

by sheer virtue of analyzing stability and predictability of the administration, the economy under Biden is a far better one. 
 

you can disagree with some things he’s done or wish he did more, but at the end of the day you just cannot argue things are not better when an insane and malicious leader is replaced with a sane and competent one. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

11 minutes ago, tshile said:

. 

Uhhhh

 

So I agree with the whole Covid thing when it comes to numbers. Without context it’s disingenuous at best

 

but the Trump economy was fraught with random jerks of the wheel via tweet. Every day was a “what is this moron gonna say on twitter that ****s things up today”

 

by sheer virtue of analyzing stability and predictability of the administration, the economy under Biden is a far better one. 

 

yea, I didn’t say it wasn’t. That was part of my point though. Arguing over the economy regarding Trump/biden is myopic…

 

[PleaseBlitz]

Re: “The Trump Economy.”

 

Basically every economic measure is a straight line going from the end of the Obama administration into Trump’s until covid hit. 
 

The only difference was Obama didnt bloviate about it. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by PleaseBlitz

[skinsmarydu]

Imma go out on a thin limb here:  I agree with tshile. 

 

The epic disaster that TFG was cannot be overstated.  Our fine Nation was a laughingstock around the world.  Hundreds of thousands of people DIED because he wouldn't tell the ****ing truth or respond to it responsibly.  Joe Biden is an astronomically better leader, and that's not even getting into the semantics of job numbers or anything else. 

[Larry]

17 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Because a lot of the job growth is due to covid

 

Really?  

 

Who knew that Covid was such an economic stimulus?  Thanks for the information.  

 

Just out of curiosity, which numbers do you propose should be used, as a measuring stick for "job creation under Joe Biden"?  

 

Show us, just how much cherry picking you want us all to do.  

 

[tshile]

4 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

yea, I didn’t say it wasn’t. That was part of my point though. Arguing over the economy regarding Trump/biden is myopic…

 

Ok I guess I was honing in on the “die on a hill every time says the economy is the same or worse under Biden than Trump”

 

because as I said - people saying that absolutely should be challenged. 

[PleaseBlitz]

For reference, here is a graph of US GDP. Seems like it’s a lot higher in 2022 than it was in 2019. 
 

[Larry]

21 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

And if you agree it isn’t “because of Biden’s actions” then why die on the hill every time someone says the economy under Biden is the same or worse than under Trumps. 

 

News flash.  I'm not the one "dying on this hill".  

 

Now, support your claim, that "the economy under Biden is the same or worse than under Trumps.".  

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Larry said:

Really?  

 

Who knew that Covid was such an economic stimulus?  Thanks for the information.  

You’re venturing into insanely stupid post territory. 
 

if you can’t be honest about the bounce back from Covid and how it affects numbers like gdp growth, job numbers, and other commonly used metrics for the economy, then you don’t belong in an honest discussion about the economy. 
 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

You’re venturing into insanely stupid post territory. 
 

if you can’t be honest about the bounce back from Covid and how it affects numbers like gdp growth, job numbers, and other commonly used metrics for the economy, then you don’t belong in an honest discussion about the economy. 
 

 

 

I think Larry's point is that those metrics are, right now, significantly better than just bouncing back from Covid (see the GDP graph above).  Job numbers aren't "back to 2019 levels" they are way better.  

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I think Larry's point is that those metrics are, right now, significantly better than just bouncing back from Covid (see the GDP graph above).  Job numbers aren't "back to 2019 levels" they are way better.  

Right, I don’t disagree it’s better. 
 

but the original post was that some/a lot of the growth is due to covid (I think smart people can argue over what % of which monthly/quarterly/annual numbers should be attributed to that, and smart people can have different opinions on that)

 

and his post is pretending that’s somehow not well understood among people who (on some basic level) understand and follow the economy

 

he’s going out of his way to not understand a pretty basic thing, then pretending it’s someone else that’s saying stupid things. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by tshile

[goskins10]

55 minutes ago, tshile said:

It is indeed very annoying to watch people you know are smart enough to understand, pretend that the natural bounce back from Covid is somehow part of showing how awesome Biden has done with the economy. 
 

 

I agree but how long do we jsut say any job creation is due to Covid? Certainly some of the job rate recovery is due to Covid. No one can honestly argue otherwise, But current unemployment rates are lower than they were pre-covid. So it's not ALL covid recovery. Also, I disagree it's a simple as Covid recovery since there were many job shifts. These I think have nothing to do with Biden or Trump either. But many jobs are being looked at differently. Restaurant business for example has really struggled to get people back. They got exposed for paying **** wages and no benifits. Gig work grew exponentially. So there has been a shift. Working at home has promoted some jobs over others that are not as flexible, It's not been a 1 to 1. At least not totally. 

 

As always there is no one way or the other. It's more complicated than that. 

 

[tshile]

Just now, goskins10 said:

I agree but how long do we jsut say any job creation is due to Covid?

just to be clear, and I touched on this in the post just before yours, I don’t think “Covid recovery” explains it all. 
 

im not smart enough to take a stance on exactly what is and isn’t caused by the natural recovery from covid. So I’m not going to do that.

 

and I don’t think CCG88 was doing that either. She simply pointed out - discussing the numbers without that context is disingenuous. Because it is. And Biden went before camera and acted like he was responsible for those numbers, early on, when it was clear some bulk of it was simply recovery and not due to anything he actually did, and his fans parroted the same ****. 
 

now it’s been a few years and it’s totally unfair to just proclaim all part of any good number is the result of a recovery he had nothing to do with. But I’m not sure I see anyone making that argument. 
 

my stance is Covid makes it impossible for me, someone who gets the very basics and generally follows the economy, to know exactly what was trumps fault and exactly what Biden did good/bad and put numbers to it. 
 

which is why I fall back on the idea that there are fundamental differences between the two administrations that make it impossible to argue Biden is worse or the same. That’s just an idiotic thing to say. I know I can’t find numbers I can confidently speak to - but I also know I don’t need to. 
 

and again really all of this is moot if the 2024 options are Trump or Biden. I’d love to follow a nitty gritty discussion on bidens economy and exactly what the measurements are of things he did vs things that occurred on his watch naturally. But even if I found that discussion, I’m not really sure I’d spend the time on it when the reality is it doesn’t matter if our next set of options is Biden or Trump. I just don’t have that much time to waste on meaningless tasks, I pretty much allocate all of that (little bit of) time to this forum and watching animal videos on Twitter 🤷‍♂️ 

[Larry]

35 minutes ago, tshile said:

You’re venturing into insanely stupid post territory. 
 

if you can’t be honest about the bounce back from Covid and how it affects numbers like gdp growth, job numbers, and other commonly used metrics for the economy, then you don’t belong in an honest discussion about the economy. 
 

 

 

1)  I'm not the one trying to claim that we should ignore all data from the entire Biden administration because Covid.  

 

2)  And I'll point out - the same trick was used against Obama.  "Well, yeah, once the free fall that the economy was in when Obama took office ended, the economy got better.  Therefore, all of the economic growth that took place for the remainder of his administration wasn't due to his policies".  

 

3)  And it was used against Clinton.  "Oh, we should ignore the growth, and the deficit that occurred under him, too."  

 

But also, because there's another problem with that argument.  Aside from the "I choose to ignore that data because I've got a slogan" element.  

 

It's because what these people are really arguing is:  

 

"Well, yeah, since '92, every time a Republican leaves office, the economy has been a smoking crater.  And a Democrat takes office, and things get better.  And he leaves office and hands his successor a robust economy.  

 

"But that means that it is completely unfair to use any objective economic data to compare one administration against another.  Because all of the Dems have inherited a smoking crater from their predecessor.  And therefore the Dem's economic performance is the same or worse."  

 

Comrade, here, is literally making that point, when he says that Trump adding 179 Kjobs/month, in his first three years, is better than the 224 Kjobs/month he inherited, at the end of the Obama administration.  

 

2 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Obama also had the post housing crisis bounce. And adding jobs on top of a already expansive job market is harder than just regaining lost jobs due to a housing crisis of covid, if you believe the president has the power to create jobs.

 

 

Edit:  

 

Yes, I'll agree.  The economy is subject to lots of events that the President doesn't do.  

 

(Although I'll also argue.  Pretending that "everything that happens while he's in office, happens because of the President" is idiotically simplistic.  But it's at least not biased.  And it's not some fudge factor that I just pulled out of my ass, so I can conclude that 179>224.)  

 

What I will not engage in, is a game of "well, if you look hard enough, you can find an excuse to ignore any fact.  Therefore I will ignore all facts, and simply pull things out of my ass with no support whatsoever."  

 

Yeah, I think it's obvious that a lot of the bounceback in the early Biden administration was simply the economy re-opening.  Heck, Trump would probably have not slowed it down much.  (Well, maybe.  If the GOP had left things alone, as opposed to claiming they had a mandate to screw things up worse.)  

 

And when it becomes a pattern, then it becomes even harder to just wave away.  

 

Yes, (to pick a different example), the federal deficit is subject to lots of factors other than who is in the White House.  But when . . . 

 

The last time a Republican President left office with a smaller deficit than when he came in, the President was Eisenhower.  

And the last time a Democrat President left office with a bigger deficit than when he came in, the President was FDR.  

 

... then simply waving your hands and announcing that "Republicans are better at cutting the deficit", and trying to deflect every fact to the contrary with "I ignore that fact because (unbelievable excuse)" becomes a diagnostic-level test.  

Edited October 6, 2023 by Larry

[TradeTheBeal!]

 

[The Evil Genius]

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

 

 

 

Just out of curiosity, which numbers do you propose should be used, as a measuring stick for "job creation under Joe Biden"?  

 

 

Who cares? Even if Biden was horrible for the economy I wouldn’t want Trump as president.

[Larry]

Admiring the way people are working so hard to try to convince people that employers adding more jobs, and/or wages going up, and/or unemployment going down, is something which the vast majority are supposed to regard as bad news.