Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[zCommander]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

e is NO ONE that is mad when we win because they have some problem with Taylor, nor will they be. Zero people on this board that I have seen. If there is one or two (I can't read every post, I have to work some time!), they are very much the extreme outlier. Also, I see no one who wants to "move on" from Taylor right now. He has earned the right to finish the season. But let's be honest - before the bye, the way he played those last few really bad losses, it was fair to start pondering a move. This thread was ab out DOA with some of the mainstays stating effectively maybe that's the end of the tide. Glad they did not make a chance and really glad to see Taylor develop. None of that means anyone is rooting for Taylor to fail. May want to move on from those narratives. It distracts from your argument that Taylor is a viable long term solution. 

 

Two of the links posted are from earlier this year (May) and two from October. I am going to go on limb here and say even Ron didn't know what Taylor can do. Taylor has turned around a lot after the bye. That extra week has helped him. Ron doesn't have to reach for a QB in the draft because what Taylor has been doing right now. Can Taylor be a franchise QB? Who knows, except for Ron. I trust him.

 

Don't remember me saying anyone is rooting for Taylor to fail. I don't do that. I am just arguing the lack of arm strength some are so hung up on and think Taylor is not a long term solution because you can't win with him for a very long time. I don't understand that hard stance. 

 

Like Ron said in his video the other team might be doing it in the air but we have to counter that by controlling the time and not let them get on the field. He was clear in saying SBs are won on the ground which sets up the passing game and not exclusively win with air attack. Some here are saying we need a QB with a rocket armed franchise type QB so we can win lots of game for a very long time. My stance is no you don't.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

It would seem logical that a cerebral QB who reads defenses and can go through MANY progressions to find the best opportunity FAST is better than a 1 or 2 read rocket arm speedster (read RG3). I think a 40 yard window can win games if the reads are fast and throw accurate. I just like the way he evaluates his opportunities to the LAST possible second using his escape ability.

He will most probably get hurt eventually though. This game will be a BIG one going into the Cowboys game next week. If we win convincingly, It's DALLAS WEEK AGAIN BABY!!

[goskins10]

11 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Two of the links posted are from earlier this year (May) and two from October. I am going to go on limb here and say even Ron didn't know what Taylor can do. Taylor has turned around a lot after the bye. That extra week has helped him. Ron doesn't have to reach for a QB in the draft because what Taylor has been doing right now. Can Taylor be a franchise QB? Who knows, except for Ron. I trust him.

 

Don't remember me saying anyone is rooting for Taylor to fail. I don't do that. I am just arguing the lack of arm strength some are so hung up on and think Taylor is not a long term solution because you can't win with him for a very long time. I don't understand that hard stance. 

 

Like Ron said in his video the other team might be doing it in the air but we have to counter that by controlling the time and not let them get on the field. He was clear in saying SBs are won on the ground which sets up the passing game and not exclusively win with air attack. Some here are saying we need a QB with a rocket armed franchise type QB so we can win lots of game for a very long time. My stance is no you don't.

 

 

Ron did not change his philosophy over a few weeks of Taylor having a few good games. So I do not need to go out on a limb to say with certainty Ron believes you need a franchise QB to win championships and they will be looking for one until they find one. The question is have they found said franchise QB. Is Taylor that guy? That very much remains to be seen. Is he making headway? Yes, and I and others have stated so. But it's still an open question and honestly it will be for another year or so. I would say that about any QB. Robert had an amazing 1 season and he is only one of many many other examples of one or two year guys that when DCs get a season to prepare for, get run out of the league. I am not saying that will happen with Taylor nor do I want it to. He is certainly more likable than Robert and some of the other 1 yr stories. But it's a fact for NFL life. 

 

You asked @mistertim if he would be mad if Taylor took us to a championship game, therefore accusing him of rooting for Taylor to fail. Maybe you didn't see it that way but that's how it reads. 

 

Also I have seen only a very very few take the hard stance that Taylor can only take you so far - but to be fair that is what history tells us. However, that does not mean Taylor cannot be an outlier. But most of the responses to you have been becasue you seem to want to ignore the arm strength as just not that big a deal and are taking a hard stance in that direction which may be why you are getting that backlash. I see you above you at least admit he does not have the ideal arm strength. Others including Mistertim have said it's not the only thing that's important. He is growing on everyone. Don't be so impatient with those of us that want to see a little more before we get to where you are. I (and most others)  like the guy and wish him the best, I promise you. BTW I am glad you are there. It's a nice place to be to have a guy you believe in. I mean that sincerely. But again, I have been Charlie Brown to the teams Lucy too many times as have many others. I will be more cautious before jumping all in 100%. 

 

In the end we are all rooting for him to succeed. For me, it's for no other reason in that it's the shortest path to longer term success and allows the team to use resources in other ways. But they would not be doing thier jobs if they were not always looking to get better.  

[zCommander]

29 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

Ron did not change his philosophy over a few weeks of Taylor having a few good games. So I do not need to go out on a limb to say with certainty Ron believes you need a franchise QB to win championships and they will be looking for one until they find one. The question is have they found said franchise QB. Is Taylor that guy? That very much remains to be seen. Is he making headway? Yes, and I and others have stated so. But it's still an open question and honestly it will be for another year or so. I would say that about any QB. Robert had an amazing 1 season and he is only one of many many other examples of one or two year guys that when DCs get a season to prepare for, get run out of the league. I am not saying that will happen with Taylor nor do I want it to. He is certainly more likable than Robert and some of the other 1 yr stories. But it's a fact for NFL life. 

 

 

Never said he did also said he knows better if Taylor is the guy. I am sure he will that determination after 1 full year under his belt. That is where I am at too. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

You asked @mistertim if he would be mad if Taylor took us to a championship game, therefore accusing him of rooting for Taylor to fail. Maybe you didn't see it that way but that's how it reads. 

 

My comment was about arm strength if he would be too upset if Taylor took us there on that arm. Didn't say anything about rooting for fail. 

 

30 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Also I have seen only a very very few take the hard stance that Taylor can only take you so far - but to be fair that is what history tells us. However, that does not mean Taylor cannot be an outlier. But most of the responses to you have been becasue you seem to want to ignore the arm strength as just not that big a deal and are taking a hard stance in that direction which may be why you are getting that backlash. I see you above you at least admit he does not have the ideal arm strength. Others including Mistertim have said it's not the only thing that's important. He is growing on everyone. Don't be so impatient with those of us that want to see a little more before we get to where you are. I (and most others)  like the guy and wish him the best, I promise you. BTW I am glad you are there. It's a nice place to be to have a guy you believe in. I mean that sincerely. But again, I have been Charlie Brown to the teams Lucy too many times as have many others. I will be more cautious before jumping all in 100%. 

 

In the end we are all rooting for him to succeed. For me, it's for no other reason in that it's the shortest path to longer term success and allows the team to use resources in other ways. But they would not be doing thier jobs if they were not always looking to get better.  

 

All I am saying the weak arm is not the end of all or be of all. You can still move the chains 10 to 20 yards at a time. No need for a rocket arm. Just need smart football player from a QB who can read defenses and go through their reads quickly and make sound decisions. That doesn't require rocket arm. More head than shoulder. There is no backlash. It doesn't hurt my feeling. It is just where I stand with that. 

 

I am not 100% but getting there. I am also waiting for the season to end and see where we are at with Taylor. I have always believed in giving a QB a whole year to see where we at like we did with Kirk. Haskins showed us he is not worth waiting for a whole year - that was on him and his lack of caring for his job. 

 

We should all root for him. He is our QB. We want him to win. He wins the fans win. We all love football in January.

 

[Thinking Skins]

 

[tmandoug1]

10 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I never said Stafford was an elite upper echelon QB along the Mahomes/Brady/Rodgers lines. But I think it's ridiculous to say he and Heinicke are on the same level. You seem to like QBR. Stafford has the #2 QBR in the NFL right now. IMO he's a legit top 10 QB, especially this season so far.

 

I'm willing to bet there are precisely zero NFL coaches who would even consider taking Heinicke over Stafford if they had that choice. Again, we literally offered a 1st round pick plus more to try and get Stafford and so did the Rams. If Heinicke and Stafford were even close to the same level, the Rams would have just offered us a 2nd rounder for him and called it a day. I'm sure we would have taken that in a heartbeat considering what he cost us.

 

I don't get why you keep trying these ticky-tacky semantic arguments. Nobody thinks Heinicke is as good as Stafford outside of maybe a few ODU fans.

Let me know when Stafford does something other than lose.....

Edit: Mathew Stafford year one stats 13 TD 20 picks with 2600 yards. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by tmandoug1

[TChaler70]

7 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

 

And sure, people overpay for QBs. Maybe the Rams overpaid for Stafford. But he's playing at a borderline All-Pro level right now.

I concede I dont know to much about football, more interested in rooting for Taylor and the story, why I come here to find articles. But is the above true? Quick google the first article I see is the "Rams better hope he isnt Goff" and he has thrown interception returned for TD in his last 3 games. This is what makes this story so cool I dont think Taylor would survive that, but its an opinion maybe I am wrong.

[skins4ever28]

45 minutes ago, TChaler70 said:

I concede I dont know to much about football, more interested in rooting for Taylor and the story, why I come here to find articles. But is the above true? Quick google the first article I see is the "Rams better hope he isnt Goff" and he has thrown interception returned for TD in his last 3 games. This is what makes this story so cool I dont think Taylor would survive that, but its an opinion maybe I am wrong.

Rams are definitely having some bad games but it sure isn’t Staffords fault. He’s been incredible. Even in the losses. Did you see how many drops his wrs had hs GB? Not to mention they literally haven’t had a run game in weeks

[mistertim]

45 minutes ago, TChaler70 said:

I concede I dont know to much about football, more interested in rooting for Taylor and the story, why I come here to find articles. But is the above true? Quick google the first article I see is the "Rams better hope he isnt Goff" and he has thrown interception returned for TD in his last 3 games. This is what makes this story so cool I dont think Taylor would survive that, but its an opinion maybe I am wrong.

 

He's playing at a very high level. He's #2 in the NFL in total QBR, he's thrown 27 TDs to 9 INTs with a 66.5 completion percentage. 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Let me know when Stafford does something other than lose.....

Edit: Mathew Stafford year one stats 13 TD 20 picks with 2600 yards. 

 

Um, if that's what you're going on, Heinicke is 5-9 as a starter. 

 

And can we please stop pretending that Heinicke is a rookie? His game experience is limited but he's been in the NFL for years so he's had way more time to get used to the speed of the game than an actual rookie. 

[wit33]

Stafford has been atrocious the last few games and reportedly suffering from back issues. This isn’t just on him, as Mccvay teams can get bullied at times, due to being a finesse offense. I expect them to turn it around, but it’s a tough division. 
 

Cool stats when all put together though. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by wit33

[London Kev]

Isn't it refreshing to see all these posts arguing about whether our QB is possibly elite, very good, or just good. It wasn't too long ago that the argument was whether our QB was possibly a bust, very crap, or just crap.

 

I want to see Heinicke finish the season before any decisions are made, but even if he finishes the season strong, I still want us to draft another QB.

 

We currently have four QBs on the team:

Taylor Heinicke - absolute baller, cerebral, slippery, pylon-diver extraordinaire, low-velocity arm.

Kyle Allen - coming off an ankle injury, not played for a year.

Ryan Fitzpatrick - coming off a waterslide injury, out for the year (possibly the end of his career?)

Kyle Shurman - UDFA, never played a snap.

 

I would be shocked if we went into next season with these QBs, so we have to do something. If it turns out that Taylor really isn't the solution, then we go all-out to get someone who is, whether that is a trade, or by moving up in the draft, or however.

If it turns out that Taylor is the man, then we draft the best QB available, (then take a RB, FS, and LB in no particular order).

 

I've heard it said that drafting a QB would be a slap in the face for Heinicke, or would somehow dent his confidence or something. I'm not buying that. He's smart enough to understand that competition breeds success and I think it pushes him to improve.

[petey hodge]

15 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

But I'm sure they're all just too dumb to understand the majesty that is Heinicke.

Let Taylor cook.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by petey hodge

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, London Kev said:

 

I've heard it said that drafting a QB would be a slap in the face for Heinicke, or would somehow dent his confidence or something. I'm not buying that. He's smart enough to understand that competition breeds success and I think it pushes him to improve.

 

Eh, he'd need to understand that it's a business and that's a business decision. He's going to need thick skin if he's going to be an NFL QB. I'd look at us drafting a QB a bit like the SF and Jimmy G situation. Jimmy G is a decent QB and they even went to a SB with him, but he has limited upside so they knew they wanted an upgrade and they went out and spent and arm and a leg for a guy with potentially elite upside. I think this would possibly be a similar situation.

Edited December 4, 2021 by mistertim

[TheBlueIndian]

I think Taylor has put the team in a perfect situation, assuming that he continues to learn and grow in the position. There is no need to panic going into the draft and reach for QB. They will have done their due diligence and be able to snatch up a quality mid-round arm with potential & upside. They can take a similar approach in FA, if there is a real chance to land a guy like Rodgers or Wilson, then yeah get them in here and let's roll, but you don't have to roll out the red carpet for middling talent or a statuesque guy like Carr or Matty Ice. I see that approach as wise. Whether they meant to do it or not, the FO is playing with house money for the remainder of this season and next. An added benefit to this is that the team is learning how to win without the benefit of its star players in Sweat and Young which gives them some more house money should they get in on the Rodgers or Wilson sweepstakes. 

 

It seems to me that Taylors' success is a lot like Cousins' success in that their ability digest the offensive scheme and execute the playbook. Taylor doesn't have the period of sustained success that Kirk has and lacks the arm strength but has some intangibles that are out of this world good and that is often the difference in a win or a loss. That was always the big knock on Kirk was that his bunghole got a little tight at exactly the wrong moment. It remains to be seen whether or not Taylor can keep it up, but it is not a bad situation to be in for the foreseeable future. 

[mistertim]

30 minutes ago, TheBlueIndian said:

I think Taylor has put the team in a perfect situation, assuming that he continues to learn and grow in the position. There is no need to panic going into the draft and reach for QB. They will have done their due diligence and be able to snatch up a quality mid-round arm with potential & upside. They can take a similar approach in FA, if there is a real chance to land a guy like Rodgers or aWilson, then yeah get them in here and let's roll, but you don't have to roll out the red carpet for middling talent or a statuesque guy like Carr or Matty Ice. I see that approach as wise. Whether they meant to do it or not, the FO is playing with house money for the remainder of this season and next. An added benefit to this is that the team is learning how to win without the benefit of its star players in Sweat and Young which gives them some more house money should they get in on the Rodgers or Wilson sweepstakes. 

 

It seems to me that Taylors' success is a lot like Cousins' success in that their ability digest the offensive scheme and execute the playbook. Taylor doesn't have the period of sustained success that Kirk has and lacks the arm strength but has some intangibles that are out of this world good and that is often the difference in a win or a loss. That was always the big knock on Kirk was that his bunghole got a little tight at exactly the wrong moment. It remains to be seen whether or not Taylor can keep it up, but it is not a bad situation to be in for the foreseeable future. 

 

Why would they go after a mid round rookie if they're looking for an upgrade? They already have a mid level guy in Heinicke. History shows that mid round QBs very very rarely work out. If they want an upgrade they should be serious about it and try to get the best QB they can. That's what SF did. They had a decent QB in Jimmy G but they knew they wanted an upgrade and moved way up in order to get their guy.

 

And there's about a .00001% chance of Wilson or Rodgers coming here. So that's not a thing.

 

I do agree about Matt Ryan and Carr. Given his age I don't think Ryan is really an upgrade over Heinicke and while Carr is probably an upgrade, I think he's only a slight one at this point so probably not worth the money or draft capital to get him. We'd be going from a cheap 15-20 range QB to an expensive 10-15 range guy. Not worth it.

[ananoman]

When you compare the WFT to the Saints, you see just how solid the “backup” QB play has been compared to what the Saints have gotten out of Hill and Siemian.  The WFT did a decent job having Allen and Heineicke on the roster. 

[goskins10]

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Why would they go after a mid round rookie if they're looking for an upgrade? They already have a mid level guy in Heinicke. History shows that mid round QBs very very rarely work out. If they want an upgrade they should be serious about it and try to get the best QB they can. That's what SF did. They had a decent QB in Jimmy G but they knew they wanted an upgrade and moved way up in order to get their guy.

 

Totally agree there is no reason to just get a QB to get a QB. And getting a midround guy is just that. At the very least, Taylor gives them time to get the guy the really want. And he is getting better game by game. 

 

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

And there's about a .00001% chance of Wilson or Rodgers coming here. So that's not a thing.

 

A few weeks ago I would have agreed here. But while I still think there is zero chance Rogers comes here (and honestly I am glad for a myriad of reasons), there might now be a better chance for Russell. This offense is set up for him to be successful. We already have a better oline than Pete Carrell ever gave him in Seattle. And there are also other playmakers on offense. And our D is coming around. 

 

He may still want to come here but it's one of the most ideal situations for him even if he does not realize it. 

 

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I do agree about Matt Ryan and Carr. Given his age I don't think Ryan is really an upgrade over Heinicke and while Carr is probably an upgrade, I think he's only a slight one at this point so probably not worth the money or draft capital to get him. We'd be going from a cheap 15-20 range QB to an expensive 10-15 range guy. Not worth it.

 

Agreed. It's a hard pass for me for anyone else. Even right now with no more development Taylor is at least close enough that the resources needed to get one of these middle of the road guys (Ryan was one time elite but no more) is jsut not worth it. Save the money and draft resources, build your team and then go for the big move to get a top prospect - the one you really want when they present themselves. 

[zCommander]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

And can we please stop pretending that Heinicke is a rookie? His game experience is limited but he's been in the NFL for years so he's had way more time to get used to the speed of the game than an actual rookie. 

 

Ron said he is a red shirt rookie. Aside from that, this is the FIRST year he has been able to practice with the 1st teamers since he left college. That is a huge for a QB even you can't deny that. 

[goskins10]

 

This is a really good video. It came out before the Seattle game. It's a fun watch from a fan. 

 

 

[mistertim]

53 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Ron said he is a red shirt rookie. Aside from that, this is the FIRST year he has been able to practice with the 1st teamers since he left college. That is a huge for a QB even you can't deny that. 

 

Sure, practicing with the 1st teamers is very important if you're going to potentially be starting. But even the practice squad gives you the experience of NFL speed vs college speed. And that's one of the biggest differences between the two...the speed of the game. I'm not saying he's not pretty new to starting and having much live game experience, but he's nowhere near a true rookie as he's been in the league for several years and had a chance to practice in it for several years.

[TheBlueIndian]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

Why would they go after a mid round rookie if they're looking for an upgrade? They already have a mid level guy in Heinicke. History shows that mid round QBs very very rarely work out. If they want an upgrade they should be serious about it and try to get the best QB they can. That's what SF did. They had a decent QB in Jimmy G but they knew they wanted an upgrade and moved way up in order to get their guy.

 

Yeah, agreed   RIF

That's not what I'm saying here. Just simply that IF they want to take a mid-round guy w/ upside that they can groom to be a backup or future starter, they can, without reaching or sacrificing much not as an upgrade. 

Point being that it looks like Taylor is going to be here for a while because there really aren't any options in the draft, FA doesn't look great either, and he doesn't suck. 

[tmandoug1]

7 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Um, if that's what you're going on, Heinicke is 5-9 as a starter. 

 

And can we please stop pretending that Heinicke is a rookie? His game experience is limited but he's been in the NFL for years so he's had way more time to get used to the speed of the game than an actual rookie. 

He is still a rookie in my eyes playing with limited resources against a very tough schedule. So I am cutting him some slack this year and I will reserve the "he can't play in the NFL" or "he is just a backup quality QB" rhetoric until he stops improving and turns into a severe liability.

[mistertim]

45 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

He is still a rookie in my eyes playing with limited resources against a very tough schedule. So I am cutting him some slack this year and I will reserve the "he can't play in the NFL" or "he is just a backup quality QB" rhetoric until he stops improving and turns into a severe liability.

 

I mean...ok. But that feels a bit like roller skates on the ole' goalposts.

 

But either way, I really don't think anyone here is saying Heinicke can't play in the NFL. It's clear that he can. I know I've said so numerous times. The main question now is what is his upper limit and is that upper limit good enough to call him the future of your franchise? I have some doubts but I'm still waiting for the rest of the season to unfold before making an evaluation on that.

[TChaler70]

I was interested in the other TH, Taysom Hill, because in my uninformed head I thought the stories were similar I know now they arent after listening to New Orleans sports radio on the way home. But after that Thur game the fans have turned on him from I what I was hearing and they apparently have cap problems and are worried what Winston will cost after signing Hill.

 

Any way my point a person called in and mentioned since we had Fitz signed through next year, I dont think that is true, that they offer a 4th or 5th for Taylor. Just fans BSing but interesting. But if Fitz is here next year or you can get him here, would you take a 4th and run and then draft the young QB which seems everybody wants to do.