The "Re-Opening" the Economy Thread

[tshile]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The argument that people produce less from home to me is complete BS comprised of anecdotal information. 

Or…..

 

it comes from comparing years worth of data on productivity of your employees to what’s happened the last year. 
 

while my department did an amazing job, and remote work is here to stay as a thing we do (not full time but my employer outfitted my home office fully, it’s actually better than what I have in my work office…. But I’m actually working from home right now…) , but the numbers don’t lie. At all 

we worked more. We produced less. There were more problems with our work. It’s not arguable. It’s in the ****ing numbers. And we review them as a team every quarter. 

 

this idea that everyone’s just pulling it out of their ass is nonsense. Quality companies track things and pay attention. They have metrics.

 

im sure some people are talking out of their ass. To assume so having no insight into a specific situation is dumb. 
 

like I said - general conversations on remote work are completely worthless. You have to look at the job, and the specific person. My job is/can be remote - and plenty of people can’t do it remote. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by tshile

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@tshileOf course there are going to be certain jobs that either cannot work from home at all or are more challenged working from home due to x, y, z reasons.  I'm in agreement that you can't paint working from home with such a broad brush.  I'm sure there are companies with information similar to yours, where it shows that working from home is not optimal.  However, I am absolutely certain that there numerous examples to the contrary, where teams are as productive, if not more, working from home.  But they will be pushed back into the office, simply because that's how old folks like it.  They want to watch the labor.  They want the work to feel like work.  It's all they know.  

 

 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I'm of the belief that those pushing hardest to get people back in the office are old people that only know work as waking up early, getting dressed in work attire, driving in traffic, and being bound to a cube/office for 8 hours minimum.  That's just 'how life is' is how I've heard some of them say it.  They really have no good answers for why life 'needs' to be that way, just that's the way it's been, so that's the way it always should be.  Pretty much your standard GOP voter way of looking at most anything.

Sure. These people exist. 
 

so do a bunch of people who did their best to make their employees happy and protect their safety. And they bought them tons of equipment. They changed their workflows. They dealt with the problems for a while. And then at some point, they finally had enough of their employees simply not producing and said it’s time to come back to the office. I’m seeing it in tons of places because I managed the infrastructure for them and am parts of the discussion. 
 

there’s a lot of employers that tried really hard and got burned by their employees. And some employees have excuses (life was rough for some of us the last 18 months.) but others don’t. 
 

ive got companies with tons of extra equipment they’re trying to figure out how to best use because they bought everyone a complete home setup. And they failed, are back in the office, so there’s two of everything now. 
 

and during those times of equipment procurement prices flew through the rough because everyone was buying ip everything, and then we have a wafer shortage, and then a chip shortage, and then a shipping container shortage. And the whole time shipping in general was completely ****ed. 
 

they we’re paying 300$ for a 80$ webcam. 450$ for a 180$ docking station. 1500$ for a 900$ computer. Ot 350$ for a 160$ monitor. You name it, everyone was buying it, shortages were everywhere, and prices were insane  

 

and they bought it anyways to try to do what was best for their employer. And what do they have to show for it? Angry employees cause they can’t work from home, and two of everything, half of which was severely overpriced. 
 

you need to come to grips with the fact that some people suck at work from home. Other people chose to take it as 70% work day and dick around. And those people may/are ruining it for the rest of us. 
 

what really sucks is when a company decides they don’t want to have the difficult conversations of allowing some to, but not others. So the people who do fine get punished to. 
 

I get why they don’t want to have those conversations. Cause people suck and instead of having some self reflection on it they’ll choose to lob accusations on why they’ve been denied working from home while others weren’t. No one wants to deal with that bull****. 

there are studies showing people work longer hours. And do less. There are studies showing people are more likely to start working earlier and work later, or come back to their desk at 8pm to deal with email that would normally wait until tomorrow. And none of that is healthy for people. 
 

Does that mean working from home is impossible? Of course not. But this narrative you’re spinning is nonsense backed only by the fact that we all know to some extent the people you describe actually exist. 

but there’s a whole lot more going on than just cranky old people unwilling to change. I think people that run businesses, for the most part, understand what I’m saying. Because those are the people I work with. And that’s what I’m seeing. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by tshile

[tshile]

18 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

However, I am absolutely certain that there numerous examples to the contrary, where teams are as productive, if not more, working from home.  But they will be pushed back into the office, simply because that's how old folks like it.  They want to watch the labor.  They want the work to feel like work.  It's all they know.  

Yes. I agree with this. 
 

and I’m not trying to just be an asshole to you here.  I realize I’m kind of coming off that way, and I promise I don’t meant it. Just trying to offer a firm counter-perspective on this. That’s all. 
 

but I’m already seeing this nonsense narrative everywhere. And sometimes it’s true. And other times it’s not.

 

I have, on various occasions, write scripts to track people’s work activity. Super ****ty task. I think it’s nonsense. Measure people by producing their work not “spying” on them. I’m also against blocking things like Facebook (unless it’s for security purposes then I get it)

 

I’m well aware a lot of people half assed their job for the last year and the reason their entire company is being forced back is because enough of them did it. 
 

kinda sucks people won’t just punish the people that can’t handle it. But like I said - no one wants to be accused of racism, or sexism, or just not liking someone (or favoritism towards others), or anything like that. Way easier to tell everyone as a group - hey, this isn’t working, everyone back by this date. 
 

in fact, if you find yourself being forced back to work even though you did well, maybe consider you’re being punished for others not carrying their weight the last 18 months. 
 

and just to be clear - some people just cannot work from home. It’s not their fault, they just can’t do it. Their brain just doesn’t allow them. Hard to describe unless you’ve seen it managing people - some hard working, smart, nice people just cannot do it. 
 

And of course others choose to not do it well cause they think they’ll get away with it. And they do. Until they don’t. 

 

Conversely - I know some people that lost their jobs going back to the office. They took a job as a remote person. Eventually it was back to office time. And for whatever reason, it wasn’t working non-remote, and so the person was terminated. 
 

the next year or two in employment activity is going to be crazy to watch. 
 

I’ve seen some absurd projections on employee turnover that’s expected coming out of this. And that’s simply from employees seeking other jobs - not terminations. 
 

(also seen a lot of unexpected retirements over the last year so I’m curious how that looks, big picture, when it’s all said and done. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by tshile

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@tshile For every study you talk about where it shows people are less productive, there are studies that show people are more productive.  So forgive me, for not entertaining that as gospel.  One could even go so far as to say how legitimate can any recent study be considering we were in a pandemic, the shift to working from home was immediate, and most people with kids had no school or child care to send their children to.  It was a complete mess.

 

It sounds like you are taking your personal experiences and projecting that across the board, so I don’t see how that’s any different than me doing the same - just with opposite results.

 

I have managed people in person and remotely for much of my career.  I’m very well versed in employee work habits.  I’m well aware that some employees can not be trusted and do not have the personal level of accountability required to be successful working from home.  However, I’m also aware that many of those same employees can’t hack it at the office either, and that there are measures one can take to demand better performance or else legally be able to let someone go.

 

There are certainly other reasons employers want people back in the office beyond simply production reasons or desiring the workplace to be what it’s always been.  There are real estate leases, agreements with states and localities tied to tax breaks, and the list goes on.  But generally speaking, you will never convince me that there aren’t droves of employers that are simply accustomed to how things have always been and have no desire to change that now.

 

 

 

 

[tshile]

I honestly thought employers would embrace it more. You can cut down on costs with a remote workforce. Also, they studies do show people are working more. Because it’s more convenient. People are working at 8 or 9 pm because they got an email and their office is just steps away now, and something that used to wait for morning gets done now. And while I personally think studies also back that this is a bad thing from a mental health perspective, I expected employers to see that as a win. 
 

but the increased hours didn’t come with increased productivity and/or the same quality of work for everyone. 
 

my personal experience is that I can continue to work from home as much as I want. I choose to go into the office on a certain limited basis, because I simply miss being around people to a certain extent. But, I pretty much set my own rules on that. 
 

what I’m telling you about is the crap we’ve been reading about for well over a year now, and the many 3rd party conversations I’ve had about what’s going on elsewhere. Both with employees and employers. And that’s not my personal experience 

 

on the flip side I’m aware of plenty of people that got out of their expensive ass nova apartment lease and moved to Tennessee, or South Carolina, or Arizona, and work remotely and do a great job and now they have significantly lower living expensive for the same pay (and presumably they’re just happier where they are and how they work now)

 

generally speaking I subscribe to the idea that the best way to make your employees productive is to make them happy, to support them, and when they know you have their back if something happens. And I know a lot of people like that, that are making the decision for people to come back, and they consider that a very tough decisions but a necessary one. 

[TheDoyler23]

In late March of 2020, I was trying to figure how to completely change my job. And since my wife worked (then) in medical services, I got to also help my 6 year old son with remote school while having a 3 year old running around and ya know, hoping the literal Black Death didn’t enter my home. So yea, if my bosses were staring at my productivity numbers and making long term decisions about that, I’d have some concerns about it. 
 

I mean, when have things been normal? The deaths? Public protest? Election anxiety? Attempted overthrow of the government? Second, third, fourth (soon to be Delta) wave? Like, when have things become normal enough to really examine the data of “productivity?” Even if things are “more normal” now… I mean, are they? I think we’re in our second or third “new” normal to be honest. 
 

@tshile - (BTW not trying to sound like I’m going after you or thinking you need to defend all of corporate America! I understand what’s in front of you from your position.) 

[tshile]

10 minutes ago, TheDoyler23 said:

Even if things are “more normal” now… I mean, are they?

I think so. For a while. 
 

One thing needs to change. The number of people vaccinated or with immunity (so getting COVID without the vaccine qualifies, for some period of time)

 

things aren’t going to change into whatever the next ‘new normal’ is until that number changes. 
 

now if everyone was onboard with vaccines I would say you’re right. Cause with vaccines that number can change quickly. 
 

The other way it changes is with unvaccinated people getting COVID, and either having immunities (for some while) or dying. 
 

It kind of seems like we’re headed for the later path and I think that’s gonna take a while…. A while for them to die, or for enough to die they change their minds…

 

most things are open. Work flows are still altered for most places from what I see. Masks are required for employees in lots of businesses that have people walk in, but otherwise masks are more rare these days. Capacity restrictions seem to have lessened for the most part. I’m just not really sure how much things could ease up without that number changing. 
 

and there’s always the chance the fears of the new variant are very real, and we start seeing children dying, and we revert. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by tshile

[Momma There Goes That Man]

It seems obvious people will be less productive because they aren’t tied to a chair in a cubicle or office all day. 
 

I think employers sort of accept that loss of production and try to offset it with decreased overhead and other savings from working at home. 
 

not sure it balances out tho. I know it’s harder for me personally to work from home. I almost have to make myself uncomfortable so I won’t get distracted with the comforts of being at home

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

It seems obvious people will be less productive because they aren’t tied to a chair in a cubicle or office all day. 
 

I think employers sort of accept that loss of production and try to offset it with decreased overhead and other savings from working at home. 
 

not sure it balances out tho. I know it’s harder for me personally to work from home. I almost have to make myself uncomfortable so I won’t get distracted with the comforts of being at home

 

 

I have worked from home off an on for the last 16 yrs and I am just as productive, if not more productive from home. People are different Also jobs are different. I know many more people who say once they got used to it they were more productive. Many of those did not like the idea when it started. Granted, it's not for everyone one. But I think you are mistaken if you think the norm is that people are less productive. In fact several studies suggest it's the opposite. Here are a few.  

 

https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivity-statistics/

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2020-11-06/are-americans-actually-more-productive-working-from-home

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriswestfall/2020/05/20/new-survey-shows-47-increase-in-productivity-3-things-you-must-do-when-working-from-home/?sh=2bb4dfff80dc

 

Here is one for keeping the office along with working from home: 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tracybrower/2020/06/07/why-the-office-simply-cannot-go-away-the-compelling-case-for-the-workplace/?sh=42356df75baf

 

In the end I think a hybrid is the best. Some time in the office but most time at home. 

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Cooked Crack

[NoCalMike]

The last two jobs I was at during the pandemic both used productivity tracking software that tracked workflow and it showed productivity was the same or higher at times as it was in the office.  Maybe because this software had already been used while in the office so everyone working from home was aware their work was being monitored (passively though, no one was getting daily emails about they didn't do a certain amount of work).  And this was the opposite of having any kind of fancy upgraded setup at home. It was literally, pack the stuff on your desk and take it home. 

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[Larry]

2 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

 

 

So, the protesters got concussion from the cop's nightsticks, right?  

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[China]

On 5/5/2021 at 5:17 PM, China said:

Federal judge overturns national eviction ban

 

Federal Judge Dabney Friedrich struck down on Wednesday the national eviction moratorium, potentially leaving millions of Americans at risk of losing their homes two months earlier than expected.

 

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has banned most evictions across the country since September. The protection was slated to expire at the end of January, but President Joe Biden has extended it, first until April, and later through June.

 

Some 1 in 5 renters across the U.S. are struggling to keep up with their payments amid the coronavirus pandemic, and states are scrambling to disburse more than $45 billion in rental assistance allocated by Congress.

 

A spokesman for the Department of Justice said it planned to appeal the ruling. It also seeks a stay of the decision, meaning the ban would remain in effect throughout the court battle.

 

Speaking at her daily briefing, White House spokesperson Jen Psaki said the Biden administration recognized the importance of the eviction moratorium for Americans who've fallen behind on rent during the pandemic.

 

"A recent study estimates that there were 1.55 million fewer evictions filed during 2020 than would be expected due to the eviction moratorium, so it clearly has had a huge benefit," Psaki said.

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

Biden to allow eviction moratorium to expire Saturday

 

The Biden administration announced Thursday it will allow a nationwide ban on evictions to expire Saturday, arguing that its hands are tied after the Supreme Court signaled the moratorium would only be extended until the end of the month.

 

The White House said President Joe Biden would have liked to extend the federal eviction moratorium due to spread of the highly contagious delta variant of the coronavirus. Instead, Biden called on “Congress to extend the eviction moratorium to protect such vulnerable renters and their families without delay.”

 

“Given the recent spread of the delta variant, including among those Americans both most likely to face evictions and lacking vaccinations, President Biden would have strongly supported a decision by the CDC to further extend this eviction moratorium to protect renters at this moment of heightened vulnerability,” the White House said in a statement. “Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has made clear that this option is no longer available.”

 

Aides to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Sen. Sherrod Brown, the chairman of the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs, said the two are working on legislation to extend the moratorium. Democrats will try to pass a bill as soon as possible and are urging Republicans not to block it.

 

In the House, a bill was introduced Thursday to extended the moratorium until the end of the year. But the prospect of a legislative solution remained unclear.

 

The court mustered a bare 5-4 majority last month, to allow the eviction ban to continue through the end of July. One of those in the majority, Justice Brett Kavanaugh, made clear he would block any additional extensions unless there was “clear and specific congressional authorization.”

 

Click on the link for the full article

[NoCalMike]

Why don't the Dems just write up legislation on the eviction ban all by itself and pass it, wouldn't that put way more pressure on the GOP not to block it if they couldn't use the same ol' "but WHAT EEEEEEEEEELSE is in the bill, huh?" tactic?

[TheGreatBuzz]

10 hours ago, China said:

 

Biden to allow eviction moratorium to expire Saturday

 

The Biden administration announced Thursday it will allow a nationwide ban on evictions to expire Saturday, arguing that its hands are tied after the Supreme Court signaled the moratorium would only be extended until the end of the month.

 

The White House said President Joe Biden would have liked to extend the federal eviction moratorium due to spread of the highly contagious delta variant of the coronavirus. Instead, Biden called on “Congress to extend the eviction moratorium to protect such vulnerable renters and their families without delay.”

 

“Given the recent spread of the delta variant, including among those Americans both most likely to face evictions and lacking vaccinations, President Biden would have strongly supported a decision by the CDC to further extend this eviction moratorium to protect renters at this moment of heightened vulnerability,” the White House said in a statement. “Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has made clear that this option is no longer available.”

 

Aides to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Sen. Sherrod Brown, the chairman of the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs, said the two are working on legislation to extend the moratorium. Democrats will try to pass a bill as soon as possible and are urging Republicans not to block it.

 

In the House, a bill was introduced Thursday to extended the moratorium until the end of the year. But the prospect of a legislative solution remained unclear.

 

The court mustered a bare 5-4 majority last month, to allow the eviction ban to continue through the end of July. One of those in the majority, Justice Brett Kavanaugh, made clear he would block any additional extensions unless there was “clear and specific congressional authorization.”

 

Click on the link for the full article

I saw that article somewhere else and the title is misleading.  He isn’t allowing it to expire.  His position is he doesn’t have a choice due to the SC decision.

[China]

What renters, landlords should expect as the federal eviction moratorium expires

 

Throughout most of the pandemic, Americans who are behind on their rent have been safe from evictions due to a federal moratorium imposed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention over public health concerns. But the Supreme Court said the moratorium must expire July 31 unless Congress passes new legislation. John Yang reports on how this could affect millions of Americans.

 

According to the most recent census data, more than six million Americans are behind on their rent, and nearly a million say eviction is very likely for them in the next two months.

 

Since last year, Congress has allocated about $46 billion to help renters pay back rent and avoid eviction, but much of it hasn't reached the people who need it the most.

 

Click on the link for more

 

 

[China]

Bacon may disappear in California as pig rules take effect

 

Thanks to a reworked menu and long hours, Jeannie Kim managed to keep her San Francisco restaurant alive during the coronavirus pandemic.

 

That makes it all the more frustrating that she fears her breakfast-focused diner could be ruined within months by new rules that could make one of her top menu items — bacon — hard to get in California.

 

“Our number one seller is bacon, eggs and hash browns,” said Kim, who for 15 years has run SAMS American Eatery on the city’s busy Market Street. “It could be devastating for us.”

 

At the beginning of next year, California will begin enforcing an animal welfare proposition approved overwhelmingly by voters in 2018 that requires more space for breeding pigs, egg-laying chickens and veal calves. National veal and egg producers are optimistic they can meet the new standards, but only 4% of hog operations now comply with the new rules. Unless the courts intervene or the state temporarily allows non-compliant meat to be sold in the state, California will lose almost all of its pork supply, much of which comes from Iowa, and pork producers will face higher costs to regain a key market.

 

Click on the link for the full article 

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

 

[Ball Security]

47 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

 

 

Andrew Lawrence is absolutely right.  Gov Abbott hates the freedoms of small businesses.  

[China]

Eviction Moratorium Left in Place by Judge Despite Legal Doubts

 

A federal judge on Friday allowed the Biden administration’s new eviction moratorium to remain in place, saying she didn’t have authority to block it despite her misgivings about the ban’s legality.

 

U.S. District Judge Dabney Friedrich in Washington said she was bound by a previous ruling from the appeals court above her that said the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention likely possessed the authority to impose an eviction ban in the name of public health.

 

Judge Friedrich in May ruled the previous version of the moratorium was unlawful because it exceeded the CDC’s powers, but that ruling never went into effect while litigation continued. In her Friday decision, she suggested the new ban suffered from the same legal problems. “But the court’s hands are tied,” she wrote in a 13-page opinion.

 

If there is to be a judicial order blocking the latest eviction ban, it will have to come from a higher court, the judge, an appointee of former President Donald Trump, said.

 

The moratorium has protected millions of tenants during the Covid-19 pandemic but created financial hardships for some landlords unable to collect rental income they rely upon for their own livelihoods.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[China]

Suffering landlords are Washington’s new eviction problem

 

Washington’s pandemic response is battering the finances of independent landlords, most of whom haven’t received federal rental aid designed to keep them whole during a nearly year-long eviction ban that has forced some property owners to house tenants for free.

 

The distress is acute for so-called mom-and-pop landlords — those who own fewer than 10 properties, which typically have between one and four units. They supply about half the housing stock in the country, and they’re more likely than corporate property managers to have lower-income tenants who’ve fallen behind on their rent as a result of Covid-19. About 30 percent have household incomes below $90,000 a year.

 

Many are growing increasingly angry with the government’s handling of housing safeguards, as they continue to pay utilities and mortgages but face state and local bottlenecks when trying to tap into $46.5 billion in rental aid allocated by Congress to offset losses from the eviction ban imposed last September. As of the end of June, just $3 billion of the funds had been disbursed. Landlords have lost billions of dollars a month under the ban.

 

“We’re doing everything the right way,” said Matthew Haines, a Dallas property owner. “But we’re drowning.”

 

Landlords are unsympathetic figures in the eyes of many struggling tenants, but they’re emerging as a new economic problem for Congress and the White House, after Democrats prioritized renters by pushing for the revival of the eviction ban earlier this month. The Biden administration has yet to find a way to accelerate the release of federal rental aid, meaning property owners will continue to be squeezed until the eviction moratorium expires Oct. 3 or is struck down in court.

 

Click on the link for the full article