OC - Scott Turner incoming

[SoCalSkins]

7 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

 

So tell me this - what percentage of the play calling was KOC's alone between games 1-13?  By many reported accounts, it was not much.  For most of those games, it was Gruden and then Callahan making the decisions.  KOC was an OC in name only. How does that make KOC a failure?  When he had total control, we saw a much more productive offense that scored touchdowns and played to Haskins' strengths (i.e. taking snaps from the shotgun to allow him to survey the defense more quickly).

His offense scored fewer points than losing teams with decimated defenses. The primary job he has is have his offense score more than the other team. He failed. His record is what it is. You want to pretend 2 games against crap opponents makes him qualified to be the OC for Ron Rivera. It doesn’t. He is what his record is. A failure with little experience. Maybe he can recover and improve maybe he can’t. It shouldn’t be here either way.

Edited January 5, 2020 by SoCalSkins

[Rex Tomb]

@SoCalSkins True or False - Haskins looked dramatically better and more competent in the games that KOC was the only play caller.  

[RemoveSnyder]

So again with Shurmur there's a connection back to a previous staff working with Ron. They coached together in Philadelphia on Andy Reid's staff.

 

Ron was appointed the LBs coach in philly in 1999, held it through 2003 before getting a DC job offer and going back to his first love team in Chicago.

Shurmur was the TEs and o-line coach in philly in 1999, through 2001, then transitioned to QB coach from 2002 - 2008.

 

So, again, Ron and Shurmur were equals in the hierarchy of the coaching staff. TEs / O-line and LBs square off together every day in every single practice. Shurmur would have worked hand in glove against and with Ron during their teeth cutting years. 

 

1999 was Reid's first year as a HC. So both Ron and Shurmur were original staff, year 1, hires by Reid. There's loyalty in that. 

Oh, and Shurmur is 54 years of age ... so he's Ron's "contemporary" 😀

 

 

Btw, just my personal note, TE coaches are some of the smartest coaches on any football team and they often make for excellent head coaches. As it is often said, the positional group right after QB who needs to know the most about every aspect of the offense is TEs. 

 

My favorite coach I ever had was a former TE who played at JMU, coached me during youth ball at bryc. He was funny, irreverent, smart and cool. 

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, Rex Tomb said:

@SoCalSkins True or False - Haskins looked dramatically better and more competent in the games that KOC was the only play caller.  

True. However,  he never looked as good as Keenum against the Eagles In game 1. Looking better than your previously horrid self is nice but your supposed whiz kid should have had him more prepared to begin with.  KOC doesn’t have experience. By your own admission he was “OC in name only” with the exception of 2 or 3 games. Yet you believe that’s sufficient  to hand him the job. You are worried Haskins will pout and won’t be coachable by someone else. That’s a pretty pathetic reason to hire KOC. 

 

 

[RemoveSnyder]

Let's get this thread back on track folks. Start posting some graphs, charts ... protractors ... anything that can be useful. 

[Rex Tomb]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

True. However,  he never looked as good as Keenum against the Eagles In game 1. Looking better than your previously horrid self is nice but your supposed whiz kid should have had him more prepared to begin with.  KOC doesn’t have experience. By your own admission he was “OC in name only” with the exception of 2 or 3 games. Yet you believe that’s sufficient  to hand him the job. You are worried Haskins will pout and won’t be coachable by someone else. That’s a pretty pathetic reason to hire KOC. 

  

 

 

Just because you are OC in name only doesn't mean you don't have any idea what you are doing or how you would do things if you were the one in charge.  I'm not at all worried that Haskins will pout, but I do acknowledge that the relationship they have is very important.  Put it this way, once Mike McCarthy lost the confidence and trust of Aaron Rodgers, the Packers were done.  The jury is still out on his relationship with LaFleur.  Relationships matter.  

[RemoveSnyder]

Here again we get affirmation that Ron is looking at a candidate in Shurmur who not only has QB coach experience but also coordinator experience and Head Coaching experience.

 

[Rex Tomb]

Just now, Monk4thaHALL said:

Here again we get affirmation that Ron is looking at a candidate in Shurmur who not only has QB coach experience but also coordinator experience and Head Coaching experience.

 

 

I'd be down with Pat Schurmur.  That Andy Reid coaching tree is fairly robust with top-flight offensive coordinators.  

[SoCalSkins]

4 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

Let's get this thread back on track folks. Start posting some graphs, charts ... protractors ... anything that can be useful. 

Our passing rankings under KOC as our OC:

[HigSkin]

6 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Our passing rankings under KOC as our OC:

 

That's not really indicative of KOC given we all know Gruden was calling plays while he was here and Callahan didn't hand over play calling until the last few games.

Edited January 5, 2020 by HigSkin

[RemoveSnyder]

11 hours ago, KDawg said:

Commodore Chud

 

Salty Dog Shurmur

???

[Conn]

At some point this becomes spam and by that definition trolling, right? Just ignore this SoCal guy, folks. 

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, HigSkin said:

 

That's not really accurate given we all know Gruden was calling plays while he was here and Callahan didn't hand over play calling until the last few games.

If my aunt had different anatomy she would be my uncle but it is what it is. That’s his record. Period. Please post his record from his vast body of work that shows anything different....

Just now, ConnSKINS26 said:

At some point this becomes spam and by that definition trolling, right? Just ignore this SoCal guy, folks. 

please do and don’t mention my name in posts. I am simply replying to others. Thanks

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

please do and don’t mention my name in posts. I am simply replying to others. Thanks

 

You're a broken record, consider your opinion on this topic presented and heard by anyone who reads through the thread. You don't need to reply the exact same thing to every person who addresses you. 

[HigSkin]

Here are the last 5 games passing yardage with KOC as the player caller.  Averaged out over 16 games thats 4368 passing yds. 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by HigSkin

[HTTRDynasty]

People must be bored... letting this troll trigger them.

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

You're a broken record, consider your opinion on this topic presented and heard by anyone who reads through the thread. You don't need to reply the exact same thing to every person who addresses you. 

Yet you keep quoting me so stop....

Edited January 5, 2020 by SoCalSkins

[Master Blaster]

I’m all aboard the Shurmur train. Been interested since I heard he was out in NY but wasn’t sure he would take an OC position. 
 

Rivera/Shurmur/Del Rio is a strong group of experienced, knowledgeable coaches who have gotten it done. 

[SoCalSkins]

5 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Here are the last 5 games passing yardage with KOC as the player caller.  Averaged out over 16 games that 4368 passing yds. 

 

 

 

Simple math eludes your post apparently. By your own stats the average passing yards was 173.4 yards a game in the 5 games you posted. That equals 2,774 yards over a 16 game season.  The 173.4 would still be last place in the NFL and is in fact lower than the season average of 175.8 we had average across 16 games.

[Skinsinparadise]

I am in the O'Connell camp.  I like him and I like that Haskins likes him and they have some chemistry.  It seems to start clicking well in the last 2 games.

 

I wouldn't hate it if its Shurmur if that's how they go.    If we are purley obsessed with stats and recency effect without factoring context then Shurmur's recent run is nothing to get excited about to say the least.  But context clearly matters. 😀

 

https://www.nj.com/giants/2018/01/what_type_of_offense_will_pat_shurmur_bring_to_the_1.html

Shurmur has shown more versatility with the Vikings' personnel groupings. The Vikings used 11 personnel on 56 percent of their plays and two-tight end sets on 29 percent of their plays this season. That's a far more balanced approach and one that will likely continue with the Giants due to the presence of tight ends Evan Engram and Rhett Ellison, who was in Minnesota with Shurmur in 2016.

 

...Shurmur's offense features a heavy dose of screens to backs and receivers. That will be an adjustment for Giants quarterback Eli Manning, who has struggled with screen passes throughout his career.

 

Shurmur's roots are in Andy Reid's West Coast offense, which features spread concepts. Shurmur has also taken concepts from other stops, including Chip Kelly's up-tempo attack and Norv Turner's vertical passing game.

All of those influences have produced an offense that could best be described as a "power spread." The Vikings used three-wide receiver sets 56 percent of the time this season, which is in line with the league average for the most common personnel grouping. But the Vikings had the second most rushing attempts and their 53:47 pass-to-run ratio was the fourth-lowest in the league this season. So even if Shurmur spread the field, he still wants to pound the ball on the ground.

Get ready to hear a lot about "run-pass options," as the quarterback in Shurmur's offense typically has the option to call a run or a pass at the line based on the look from the defense. The quarterback will often be called upon to get the ball out quickly, but Shurmur incorporates downfield shots. Vikings quarterback Case Keenum ran play-action on 28.7 percent of his passes, according to Pro Football Focus.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am in the O'Connell camp.  I like him and I like that Haskins likes him and they have some chemistry.  It seems to start clicking well in the last 2 games.

They only thing I think they should do is offer KOC an extension with more money so he stays on longer than a year to be our OC.

[Skinsinparadise]

An NBC Sports Washington report said the NFC East rival Redskins have internally discussed Shurmur in case new coach Ron Rivera wants to replace coordinator Kevin O’Connell. An ESPN report said there has not been an interview scheduled and none is imminent.

Three of Shurmur’s nine wins as Giants coach were against the Redskins, where he could develop second-year quarterback Dwayne Haskins and be reunited with two of his former quarterbacks, Case Keenum and Colt McCoy. The Giants chose Jones over Haskins in the draft.

 

Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy – one of four candidates interviewed by the Giants so far to be Shurmur’s replacement – could hold the key to Shurmur’s future. If Bieniemy fills one of the four (including the slow-moving Cowboys) head coach vacancies, Shurmur is a logical candidate to replace him.

Shurmur spent 10 seasons as a position coach (1999-2008) under Chiefs coach Andy Reid when both were with the Eagles. The Chiefs have Shurmur’s son, Kyle, as a practice squad quarterback behind MVP Patrick Mahomes.

 

If Bieniemy is hired by the Panthers, Browns or Cowboys, he will need a strong offensive coordinator to make up for his lack of play-calling experience. Reid calls plays for the Chiefs, and Bieniemy’s only play-calling experience during a 19-year career came during two years at the University of Colorado.

Bieniemy could call upon Shurmur because of his experience with Reid’s offense.

Shurmur worked wonders with Keenum on the 2017 Vikings, which made him a hot candidate in head coach searches. He was only two years into a five-year contract with the Giants.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/01/05/pat-shurmur-wants-to-coach-in-2020-after-giants-firing/

[RemoveSnyder]

That is interesting too that Pat Shurmur worked with Norv Turner on the same staff in Minnesota.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I can't believe I am going to say this, but I'm inclined to be more on the side of @SoCalSkins.  I don't believe I've ever agreed with him before, so this is kidnof a first.   

 

I guess I would be ok in either scenario.  If Ronny R. decides it is most important to have stability for Haskins' development, ok. 

 

However, there's nothing KOC has done as an OC which has been "WOW." He's not Golden Boy McVay.  The pass offense was stank before and after Gruden was fired. You can give him a complete pass if you like because Gruden was calling plays, and then Callahan wanted to run the ball 97 times a game.  Fine.  But in that case, what has he actually achieved?  6 quarters of good football from Haskins?

 

If they find a really good, established QB guru type OC, fine.  If not, fine.  There are pluses and minuses to this decision.  Which is why I think this is taking so long.

 

Here's the other thing: I know that stability is key for Haskins so he doesn't have to learn a new language.  HOWEVA.  In theory, a new OC comes in and actually tailors the offense around Haskins, and I doubt that new OC will be here for just one year.  JC had a new OC just about every year.  But since this is Ron's first year of probably 4 or 5 at the minimum, my guess is there will be stability from this point forward.  If you like a different guy, then go with him, and be done with.  

[onedrop]

28 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

If my aunt had different anatomy she would be my uncle but it is what it is. That’s his record. Period. Please post his record from his vast body of work that shows anything different....

 

so for the sake of one argument KOC has really only been in charge of a few games and you define him as too inexperienced. yet when it suits the current situation you want the whole years stats laid at his door?