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OC - Scott Turner incoming

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RemoveSnyder

RemoveSnyder

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I'll say this about Ken Whisenhunt he earned a certain part of the three consecutive pro bowls from 2016 to 2018 as Rivers did.

 

I believe he was influential to the Rivers resurgence from a few years ago. I mean, Whisenhunt was River's OC for 4 of River's 8 pro bowl years. Not bad. 

 

And Whiz's portfolio of QBs he's either developed or worked with is pretty impressive. From Ben R-Berger, to Kurt Warner, Mariota's rookie year, and Rivers pro bowl years.

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SoCalSkins

SoCalSkins

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12 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

I'll say this about Ken Whisenhunt he earned a certain part of the three consecutive pro bowls from 2016 to 2018 as Rivers did.

 

I believe he was influential to the Rivers resurgence from a few years ago. I mean, Whisenhunt was River's OC for 4 of River's 8 pro bowl years. Not bad. 

 

And Whiz's portfolio of QBs he's either developed or worked with is pretty impressive. From Ben R-Berger, to Kurt Warner, Mariota's rookie year, and Rivers pro bowl years.


Norv was probably more influential on Rivers than Whisenhunt but he’s head and shoulders above KOC in experience and every other measurable. He would be a good pick in my opinion for sure.

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ddub52

ddub52

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Okay, for you...

 

For Turner, if he's hired, should we call him Bootstrap? I kinda like that. 

 

We can sing Spongebob's theme song, too. 

I dig it! But how about... Ted? Or Paige? 

Edited by ddub52
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RemoveSnyder

RemoveSnyder

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17 hours ago, Jericho said:

I think it's a bit funny that for all the talk of Rivera wanting a veteran guy (which seems largely made up) 

 

Largely made up? Ha, No.

It's really not that difficult. Clearly Ron's top choice for offensive coordinator is not available ... right now. Hence the interviews of the youngins in the interim. 

And I'd argue his #1 is probably Norv Turner. 

 

Here's the deal, Ron has had only 3 offensive coordinators in the entirety of his head coaching career in all of nine seasons (2011 to 2019). And those three have all either been his contemporary or his elder. They are: Chudzinski (2011, 12), Shula (2013 - 17), Norv Turner (2018, 19).

Ron - 57  |  Chudz - 51  |  Shula - 54  |  Norv - 67  (as of today).

 

And each guy, each one, Ron coached with on the same staff prior to hiring them as "his" OC. He had daily routine familiarity with each. Ron was hired by Norv in 2007 out in San Diego, first as a LBs coach, then promoted the next year in 2008 to defensive coordinator. He worked side by side with Norv at the "generals" level for three years (2008 - 2010), all of which lead directly to Ron's first head coaching hire in 2011 in carolina. 

 

It's not hard to see the reverence and respect that Ron would have for Norv. A "fatherly" football love. Easy. And it's been noted throughout Rivera's tenure that he is an oldschool loyal coach, loyal to his guys, and leans heavily upon direct relationships. The same applies to the rest of the gang. 

 

Ron worked with Chudzinski for two years on the same staff prior to getting the head coaching gig in carolina and had firsthand interaction with him in San Diego. Chudzonski was hired as an assistant head coach by Norv in 2009 and continued that in 2010. That's not some positional coach, even though he was also the TEs coach, but AHC is on the same tier as OC or DC, the "generals" level. So that leads directly to Ron hiring Chudzinski as his first OC. 

 

In the case of Shula, again, he was someone that Ron hired as a positional coach (QB coach) directly underneath the OC (Chudzinski) in 2011 in carolina, who then was promoted and ascended into the OC role for continuity and offensive cohesion in 2013. Not to be lost in all this was that Shula not only had prior coordinator experience, 4 years with Tampa, but also head coaching experience 4 years worth at Bama ... seasoned.

Likewise, Shula had been the QBs coach on Jack Del Rio's staff over in Jacksonville when Ron hired him. There's another Kevin Bacon 6 degrees of separation. 

 

Again, a theme emerges.

That leads us all the way to 2017 when Shula leaves the panthers and Ron fulfills every NFL head coach's sacred duty when he himself can hire his former mentor and respected former head coach, in Norv, to be his coordinator. We come full circle.

 

It's clear that Ron works with people he's familiar with. It's also clear that substance, experience ... call it what you want, I used the word "seasoning," is highly important. It's also clear that Ron not only needs to know and be comfortable with the personality of his potential coordinator, but that candidate also must have a wealth of offensive understanding, learned, can impart that knowledge as a teacher, have a commanding aura, be of substance, and be someone who can control a room of grown ass men.

 

And of course, has been there before ... ideally. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule based on the circumstances, there always are.

 

But you get those qualities (above) with a seasoned candidate. If the candidate is young, just starting out, then that person needs to be one of those rare birds who just is mature beyond their years in terms of personality, responsibility, accountability, aura, vigor and knowledge. 

 

Quote

And although it helps defeat the narrative, when Rivera hired Rob Chudzinski, Chudzinski had all of 32 games as an offensive coordinator (and at 43 was fairly young)

 

Yeah, but, you fail to say how old Ron was when he hired the 42 year old Chudzinski -- Ron was 48. Chudz was actually 42 nine years ago.

The other point you failed to mention was that not only did Chudzinski come with two years of OC work from cleveland in 2007 and 2008, but that he and Ron had two more years together in the same offices in San Diego (2009, 10), as Chudz was the assistant head coach to Norv, which is likely, largely, the reason Chudz was Ron's first OC hire. 

 

The fact remains that Chudz did have prior experience, more than a cup of coffee. And too had the Norv seal of approval.

Not to mention that Chudzinsky, like Shula, had experience at the major college level, since Chudz was the OC of Miami from 2001 through 2003. Another net 3 years of coordinator experience to add ontop. 

 

*(tangent)*

Come to think of it, I'm surprised Dan Snyder doesn't love Chudzinski in all senses of the word since Dan was a huge fanboy of those early 2000s Hurricane squads. I mean ... 

 

Ok?

So, Chudzinski (and Shula) are his contemporaries and that's the only way to view it. No matter when in the past they were hired by Ron, they were of Ron's generation. They were of Ron's level of "class" within the NFL hierarchy. They each went through the same ascension process that Ron did. Plainly, Ron hired his contemporary in 2011 with Chudzinski, someone with his same level of accrued skill points, an equal.

 

So that's more than just "32 games." More than just some greenhorn, right? Add the SD years, add the Miami years ontop of the cleveland years.

So, I mean your arguments aren't really convincing. 

 

And, I shouldn't have to explain contemporary, but for me, generally, plus / minus 5/6 years of age I think is safe to call contemporary. BTW, Del Rio is 56. That's one year off of Ron at 57, who is about to be 58. Again, contemporary.

 

Norv is really the only elder, and clearly Norv is recognized league wide as a wealth of offensive knowledge and experience. That alone. But 1st hand experience is what Ron has/had with Norv and likely reached out to his old head coach for help in 2018 ... and he got it. That also came with, or involved, or organically included, Norv's son, Scott Turner.

 

 

The only thing that Rivera interviewing O'Connell says to me is that Ron's first choice was/is not available.

The only thing to say about interviewing O'Connell is due diligence.

 

The only thing that Rivera interviewing Scott Turner says to me is that Ron is showing respect to ST, a guy from his staff, who he hired to be QBs coach. 

Again due diligence, I'd argue.

 

That's it.

But because it's Norv's kid, and the Norv relationship has already been spelled out, it's also a show of respect and reverence to Norv himself. Perhaps it also paves a way to get Norv here. IDK.

 

The largely made part of your argument doesn't make any sense. You refuted it yourself, right here: 

Quote

Scott Turner is probably the one guy with less experience than O'Connell. Turner was an OC for all of 4 games, half of which Will Grier started (which basically meant zero offense before the game began).

 

Which exactly highlights why the grouping of 30-somethings with O'Connell and Scott Turner, that kid Peetz who has never had any OC experience, and the other dude, Downing, whose only year of OC experience came on Jack's 2017 Oakland team that went 6-10 as Carr regressed and got Jack fired, is distinctly different than the aforementioned 3 OCs of Chudz, Shula, Norv. 

 

Clearly.

 

Quote

Rivera likely could attract bigger names now that he himself is a bigger name. The question is really who is out there?

 

Well, you see, I'd argue that the issue probably is contract obligation related. Simply, that both Norv and Shula are under contract with their respective teams and would need to be released from their contracts in order to take the OC position here. And "clearly" it looks like a waiting game on Ron's part to see what both NY and Carolina do since both teams fired their head coaches.

 

So, the idea that Shula could be released seems a possibility. Likewise too with Norv, as carolina may perhaps hire from outside the org. IDK. Maybe they'd hire Norv outright. Who knows. 

 

Obviously Norv has some weird title of "special assistant to the head coach." I have no idea what protections that title comes with. The NFL only recognizes certain jobs as promotions, like positional coaches to coordinator and then coordinator to only head coach as a promotion, while the league prevents lateral moves (as I'm sure you already know). 

 

Norv obviously started the 2019 season as the "offensive coordinator" under Ron. It could be possible that Norv's current position would only recognize head coach as a promotion in title and therefore is protected unless carolina gave permission for him to interview specifically for the OC position here, or released him outright from his contract. Which ... again wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for Carolina to do from an asset management point of view. If I'm Carolina, I use the wealth of knowledge that Norv has, use his connections, his influences, his recommendations before I just willy-nilly hire a Head Coach. I possibly also consider Norv as a head coach if I'm carolina.

 

Again ... seasoned. That's Norv. 

 

But in addition with Norv, there is also the added layer of the Dan Snyder element, which could ultimately compound things. Like I wrote earlier, it feels weird that Norv would like to come work for, under, Dan Snyder again. At 67 ... ain't nobody got time for that. If it were me, I'd say: "no thanks, I'll hit the beach." 

 

 

I'd argue that Norv is Ron's #1 instead of Chudzinski for one simple reason, because if Chudz were Ron's #1, then he'd be hired by now. Chudz is out of the league, been out for two consecutive seasons 2018 and 2019. There's nothing preventing a Chudzinski hire. Maybe there are health reasons, maybe Chudz is Ron's #2 and Ron is simply waiting to see what happens with Norv, if he gets cut loose by carolina. 

 

What we do know now is that Ron was courted very quickly by Dan after his December 3rd firing and likewise Ron had plenty of time to inturn get Del Rio lined up so that the DC hire occurred right away. 

 

So, again, if Chudz was #1 OC target, he'd be here by now. Right? 

So, simply, all that those things say to me is that someone else is #1. That's why Norv seems very important, since Norv was Ron's latest OC in the timeline as of 2018 & 2019. And the only reason why Norv hasn't been hired straightaway, as I contend, is either because of his current contract with carolina being preventative, or because of Dan.

 

Maybe for Norv there are some places he's not willing to go. IDK. If that's the case and Norv doesn't want to come here, then perhaps Ron is waiting to see what happens to Shula in NY with their turnover, see if Shula gets cut loose. 

 

Everything clearly points to Ron waiting things out and exploring his options.

 

Quote

Caldwell might be, though his contract status is unclear. Nor is it clear he'd be open to an OC job. Maybe he's happy in Miami if he's not a head coach?

 

Personally I'm looking at contemporaries to Ron, not 20 or 30 year olds who Ron is "unfamiliar with," as was said about both O'Connell and coincidentally too, Schaffer (obviously schaffer is older and a different story). Doesn't mean Ron won't work with those people, because he actually did say he would work with in the case of Schaffer, but that's not the same as "1st choice," or preferred choice.

 

I assume that any candidate would need to have some overlapping with Ron on a personal level, playing or coaching. Like Del Rio, either being players at the same time as Ron, both becoming coaches around the same time, and ascending to similar levels at the same time. Del Rio playing at USC while Ron is at Cal. Del Rio playing in the NFC during the 80s and Ron too with Chicago. Del Rio aligning at the same time with Norv in Dallas in the early 90s. Things like that. 

 

Those would be the candidates I would look for. It has to be relationship based or have some specific commonality: same agent, played on the same team, coached on the same staff, met as an equal either on the playing field or within the coaching ranks and/or head coaching collegium. 

 

 

And as I wrote earlier, also too coaches that Ron faced and respected. A worthy adversary. That's what made me think of Mike McCoy, because he faced off against Ron. I'd guarantee that Ron would say he respects Sean Payton, for obvious reasons, but it just underscores that respect is earned. 

 

So that's why I included on my list some pages ago: Ken Whisenhunt, Mike McCoy, Mike Mularkey, etc. The group of contemporaries.

 

Along the same lines as Norv Turner, the elder, that's why I listed Tom Clements, because he too is a "legend" status offensive mind in the NFL, on the same tier as Norv, imo. So, that's why I included him since his current contract status is one where he could be technically promoted to the OC position thus making him available and not protected by some phonetically shielding job title.

 

 

Quote

Right now the only contenders seem to be O'Connell and little Turner.

 

Well, those are the only two which have been reported upon, openly. Clearly there has to be a masterlist and informal feelers out there, and perhaps interviews happening over the phone.

 

As per both O'Connell and S.Turner -- Due diligence. I think Ron would likely have Norv right now, only if Norv would take the position.

Interviewing Scott Turner perhaps is in part an attempt to line up Norv coming here by making sure there's room for the son on the staff as well, possibly. 

 

Edited by Monk4thaHALL
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RemoveSnyder

RemoveSnyder

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Posted (edited)

I mean O'Connell was briefly signed by Norv Turner in the 2012 season out in San Diego.

 

Also too O'Connell would have been playing football at San Diego State (2007) when Ron was LBs coach, eventually becoming Defensive Coord w/ the Chargers.

SDSU often played their games at the same stadium as the Charges back then.

 

The Aztecs weren't / aren't known as a QB football factory, so having had an NFL capable QB in O'Connell would have been common knowledge among any and all football people in the San Diego area at that time. 

 

Both Ron and O'C being califiornia guys growing up is another one. Having some commonalities between Ron's military dad and O'C having an FBI dad. 

 

There are some commonalities that tie together.

Edited by Monk4thaHALL
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RemoveSnyder

RemoveSnyder

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I honestly don't know if the relationship with Shula soured after 2017. It quite possibly could have. 

It was reported then that Shula was fired, not parted ways, not declined to re-sign, not contract expired, but fired.

Same along with Ken Dorsey, the then QBs coach. 

 

That coincided with Ron getting an contract extension from carolina, back in january of 2018. 

 

So, ultimately I don't know where O'Connell ranks in the group. I'd certainly say behind Norv. Whether he'd also be behind Chudz and/or Shula, not sure. Possibly O'Connell could be ahead of Shula if the Ron relationship with Shula was not the most tight after the 2017 firing. Though, it's not heartwarming to think O'Connell is the #4 option from the list. 

 

It's also hard to not think that somewhere along the way of being a good guy head coach in the league that Ron hasn't cultivated a professional relationship with someone outside his immediate circle of coaches, hasn't formed a respect from afar kind of thing with some seasoned offensive NFL coach, somewhere. 

Edited by Monk4thaHALL
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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Posted
  1. Or maybe the super smart young guy who ascended to an NFL coordinator position after about four years of coaching actually is a really talented young coach that people would like to hire.

 

This dude is a future head coach.  He is so obviously smart and organized and polished and has the make up for it.  He is more than good enough to be our offensive coordinator as he climbs the ladder.

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SoCalSkins

SoCalSkins

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Posted
28 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:
  1. Or maybe the super smart young guy who ascended to an NFL coordinator position after about four years of coaching actually is a really talented young coach that people would like to hire.

 

This dude is a future head coach.  He is so obviously smart and organized and polished and has the make up for it.  He is more than good enough to be our offensive coordinator as he climbs the ladder.


 

Based on what? His 32nd ranked passing offense? His second worst record in the NFL? His 1 year as an OC? His 11 games total calling plays? Under what tangible metric is he anything!??

 

The rookie QB likes him so you twist yourself into making him some up and coming genius. His record does not reflect that. 
 

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skinzplay

skinzplay

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Posted
14 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


 

Based on what? His 32nd ranked passing offense? His second worst record in the NFL? His 1 year as an OC? His 11 games total calling plays? Under what tangible metric is he anything!??

 

The rookie QB likes him so you twist yourself into making him some up and coming genius. His record does not reflect that. 
 

 

............ or maybe it's the 16 quarters without a touchdown. That's gold jacket worthy, right there.

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MisterPinstripe

MisterPinstripe

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Posted
3 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

 

............ or maybe it's the 16 quarters without a touchdown. That's gold jacket worthy, right there.

What about the final 3 games where he was no longer handcuffed by Callihan and we averaged 24 or so points per game and Haskins was looking like the guy we hoped for when we drafted him?

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RemoveSnyder

RemoveSnyder

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Per Chudzinski: https://www.oregonlive.com/ducks/2019/12/canzano-oregon-ducks-marcus-arroyo-to-unlv-is-good-for-all-parties.html

 

Seems that last year at this time he was courted by Oregon to be an offensive consultant. The speculation in the article above was that his continuing severance from the browns was prohibitive to being employed in college. There was a random tweet from Feb 2019 I was able to cross check and confirm with this article (think it was an oregonian reporter) that reported the Oregon interest.

 

I mean, I don't know. Quick google search says he got a 4 year deal from cleveland and that started in 2013. You'd think it be up by now.

 

Anyway, Oregon's OC just left to go off to UNLV. The rumor talk is that Chudz is the guy they want out at Oregon. Don't know if that explains why nothing seems to have materialized already between Ron and Chudz. 

 

If there were interest from Ron toward Chudz, if so, that puts O'Connell as #3 at best on the list, best as I can figure. So if O'C is the man, obviously they'd never come out and say: "here's the 3rd/4th choice from the list on our OC search ... Kevin OConnell."

 

But.

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RemoveSnyder

RemoveSnyder

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The other line that caught my eye in the Chudz article was this: 

"Former NFL quarterback Derek Anderson told me Chudzinski is “all-night.” Meaning, the guy’s worth ethic is ridiculous. That fits the current 24-7 atmosphere at Oregon."

 

That's a hell of a nickname, "All Night." Get the Lionel Richie 12" wax on the turntable for Chudz. Looks KOC has some competition for the all name team. 

 

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SoCalSkins

SoCalSkins

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

What about the final 3 games where he was no longer handcuffed by Callihan and we averaged 24 or so points per game and Haskins was looking like the guy we hoped for when we drafted him?


0-3 in those games. Each team we played had a losing record entering the game. 
 

At least you are being honest making it about Haskins. The kid wants the coach who coddled him. Fair enough. You want to keep that going. I think Ron has different plans. We will see who the hire is.

 

 

Edited by SoCalSkins
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